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On July 09 2015 06:18 YuiHirasawa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 06:02 maartendq wrote:On July 09 2015 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 04:55 maartendq wrote:On July 09 2015 03:49 YuiHirasawa wrote:
I really hope the grexit will happen. Then I hope it will spread to other countries too (even France, my home country). The EU achieved nothing for its members except feeding banks and corporate governments. What I say may sound like total populism but this is how it feels when you're a simple plebeian. I want a return to local and secluded economies which don't depend on the ECB's goodwill to do QE every year to keep them afloat.
Europe is big scam and I am sick of my country being one of Germany underlings.
Do it Tsipras, as Mister Farage said. The EU has some major communication problems though. The EU does a lot more for its citizens than they can imagine, and anyone who thinks you can just "get out" without having to reform significant parts of both that country's economy and political system is delusional and needs to read up on the EU. I don't get this desire people suddenly have for "local secluded markets". It seems based on some romantic idea of a past that never even existed in the first place. It's not as if you can just keep globalisation out or reverse the whole process. It's here to stay until we somehow run out of energy to fuel it. The laptop you're typing your posts on is made in China, your fruit comes from South America, celery from spain, clothes from bangladesh etc. Also, we are not all slaves of some German fourth economic "reich". That's just a portrayal of the media because making people associate Germany with imperialism increases newspaper sales. The budget of the european union is around 130 billions a year - around 1 to 2 % of the european union GDP. It's so small what can you do with it ? It's pocket money. To give you a comparaison, the budget of France is 455.5 billions a year. Out of those 130 billions a years, 6 to 7 % are used for the administration, and the rest is mostly used for agricultural support (the common agricultural policy is 32 % of the budget) and regional support. Just the budget on communication of the EU represent almost what a country like Slovenia receive from the EU (when you substract what it gives) - and of course, at least half of european countries lose more than they get from the EU. So what does the europe actually do to its people ? Aside from undemocratic and technocratic pseudo solutions that actually always lead to more unemployment and less public services in the name of competition and free market. The rest of your post is plagued with the orpheus complex, this disease that prevent anyone to look back : nothing can stop the march of progress ! Globalization is the future of mankind. Hearing you suddenly made me realise why France got its panties into a bunch over Belgium's Waterloo coin. Just like the UK, there seem to be many people in France who nostalgically look back to a past when both countries still held a semblance of power over the world, and think that being free from the shackles of the EU will bring back the glory of yore. The world moves forward, not backward. Globalisation is a process that started when Spain and Portugal conquered South America in the 15th-16th century. Right now the US, China, Korea, Japan, the EU etc trade goods and services with countries across the world. It's not something that is suddenly going to stop. Yet all these economies are failing: Japan abenomics failed, Chinese stocks are plumetting, the US economy looks rather good too lol (I don't know why you included SK as it is irrelevant)... This is what you don't understand, you believe that capitalism is the end of all and that the world cannot get out of free trade. If Greece, then another country (Italy?), then another one (Spain?) decide they don't want to surrender to bankers anymore the dying debt-based economic system (the ECB interest rates are negative for some countries!!!) will collapse.
All that just looks like arguments against government-directed economies.
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On July 09 2015 06:18 YuiHirasawa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 06:02 maartendq wrote:On July 09 2015 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 04:55 maartendq wrote:On July 09 2015 03:49 YuiHirasawa wrote:
I really hope the grexit will happen. Then I hope it will spread to other countries too (even France, my home country). The EU achieved nothing for its members except feeding banks and corporate governments. What I say may sound like total populism but this is how it feels when you're a simple plebeian. I want a return to local and secluded economies which don't depend on the ECB's goodwill to do QE every year to keep them afloat.
Europe is big scam and I am sick of my country being one of Germany underlings.
Do it Tsipras, as Mister Farage said. The EU has some major communication problems though. The EU does a lot more for its citizens than they can imagine, and anyone who thinks you can just "get out" without having to reform significant parts of both that country's economy and political system is delusional and needs to read up on the EU. I don't get this desire people suddenly have for "local secluded markets". It seems based on some romantic idea of a past that never even existed in the first place. It's not as if you can just keep globalisation out or reverse the whole process. It's here to stay until we somehow run out of energy to fuel it. The laptop you're typing your posts on is made in China, your fruit comes from South America, celery from spain, clothes from bangladesh etc. Also, we are not all slaves of some German fourth economic "reich". That's just a portrayal of the media because making people associate Germany with imperialism increases newspaper sales. The budget of the european union is around 130 billions a year - around 1 to 2 % of the european union GDP. It's so small what can you do with it ? It's pocket money. To give you a comparaison, the budget of France is 455.5 billions a year. Out of those 130 billions a years, 6 to 7 % are used for the administration, and the rest is mostly used for agricultural support (the common agricultural policy is 32 % of the budget) and regional support. Just the budget on communication of the EU represent almost what a country like Slovenia receive from the EU (when you substract what it gives) - and of course, at least half of european countries lose more than they get from the EU. So what does the europe actually do to its people ? Aside from undemocratic and technocratic pseudo solutions that actually always lead to more unemployment and less public services in the name of competition and free market. The rest of your post is plagued with the orpheus complex, this disease that prevent anyone to look back : nothing can stop the march of progress ! Globalization is the future of mankind. Hearing you suddenly made me realise why France got its panties into a bunch over Belgium's Waterloo coin. Just like the UK, there seem to be many people in France who nostalgically look back to a past when both countries still held a semblance of power over the world, and think that being free from the shackles of the EU will bring back the glory of yore. The world moves forward, not backward. Globalisation is a process that started when Spain and Portugal conquered South America in the 15th-16th century. Right now the US, China, Korea, Japan, the EU etc trade goods and services with countries across the world. It's not something that is suddenly going to stop. Yet all these economies are failing: Japan abenomics failed, Chinese stocks are plumetting, the US economy looks rather good too lol (I don't know why you included SK as it is irrelevant)... This is what you don't understand, you believe that capitalism is the end of all and that the world cannot get out of free trade. If Greece, then another country (Italy?), then another one (Spain?) decide they don't want to surrender to bankers anymore the dying debt-based economic system (the ECB interest rates are negative for some countries!!!) will collapse.
The US economy is good at the moment though. The national debt is tangentially related but not at all a problem. You're just showing a fundamental misunderstanding of economics
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On July 09 2015 07:05 phil.ipp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 06:37 andrewlt wrote:
These problems you mention have nothing to do with not having local, secluded economies. Let me guess, you work in one of those industries France is not good at and you want to continue your inefficient free ride.
one global economy can only work in one global country. you cant have 200 countrys, 10 produce everything and 190 have to buy it with debt. and if a country wants to produce something for themself, you dont allow it, cause secluded economies are bad, and everyone should buy from you, with money borrowed from you. why cant you see that idiotic cycle, which is so obvious today ..
well every country is free to produce. Some produce more then they need and some produce less. Thoose who produce less will have to borrow in the hope to repay in the future,when they will produce more then they need.
The usa is a prime example of this, they produce less then they need and have a chronic trade deficit,the only reason the usa stays afloat is the petro dollar.
And its not like the producing countrys do it all for fun, producing items is hard work. The problem lies with those who produce less then they need. They have to lower their consumption or raise their production,or become indebted.
In the case of the usa its indebted to china, because that's the main reason for the trade deficit. xx billion dollars flows to china every month, and that money has to come back. So china buys the treasuries.
China will get scammed off course,because there is no way that the usa will actually pay anything to china but that's another subject.
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Estonia4504 Posts
I have been reading this conversation with great interest, and I'd like to add a few cents of my own. Some of it will probably echo arguments that have been said before, but I hope it adds a different perspective.
I am from Estonia, a eastern European country that some here have argued should not have joined the EU in the first place. In 2010, we painstakingly fought through the recession and managed to adopt the euro at the time that other countries were taking out more loans to fuel their economies. We still have one of the lowest public debts in Europe, and have been staunch supporters of austerity for as long as I can remember.
As a Eurozone member, we had to put money during the austerity measures into the ESM, to support Greece. We still have way lower welfare than Greece does, and that is despite their country being close to a default.
Why does any of this matter? Well, the European dream is important for me as an Estonian as compared to countries that would atm do better on their own. The EU has brought a definite change in a lot of subjects, from discussions of feminism to multiculturalism and homophobia. Estonia was this year the first country in the ex-USSR to legalize homosexual partnerships, and it was a tough sell to the populace. As a contrast, across the border, we have movements like this:
Occupy "Pedophilia"
We are seeing the first signs of far right parties emerging and another payout on Greece would be a major anti-EU argument for us, since even though we are a very innovative economy, and austerity has arguably kept us afloat, right now we have to pay even though we did nothing wrong, and Greece is refusing to go through the same as we did. Of course, every country is different and the arguments for debt restructuring seem sound, but I am very concerned about the rise of the far right if Tsipras gets his way, not just in Estonia but across eastern Europe as a whole.
Is the EU ineffective? Yes. Is it bloated and in need of reform? Yes. Is it still a force for good, as far as I am concerned? Yes. Even as a federalist, I have to say yes to a Grexit, since there is more at stake than Greece here.
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On July 09 2015 08:12 Rassy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 07:05 phil.ipp wrote:On July 09 2015 06:37 andrewlt wrote:
These problems you mention have nothing to do with not having local, secluded economies. Let me guess, you work in one of those industries France is not good at and you want to continue your inefficient free ride.
one global economy can only work in one global country. you cant have 200 countrys, 10 produce everything and 190 have to buy it with debt. and if a country wants to produce something for themself, you dont allow it, cause secluded economies are bad, and everyone should buy from you, with money borrowed from you. why cant you see that idiotic cycle, which is so obvious today .. well every country is free to produce. Some produce more then they need and some produce less. Thoose who produce less will have to borrow in the hope to repay in the future,when they will produce more then they need. The usa is a prime example of this, they produce less then they need and have a chronic trade deficit,the only reason the usa stays afloat is the petro dollar. And its not like the producing countrys do it all for fun, producing items is hard work. The problem lies with those who produce less then they need. They have to lower their consumption or raise their production,or become indebted. In the case of the usa its indebted to china, because that's the main reason for the trade deficit. xx billion dollars flows to china every month, and that money has to come back. So china buys the treasuries. China will get scammed off course,because there is no way that the usa will actually pay anything to china but that's another subject.
You guys are oversimplifying macro economics immensely and really going off-topic.
Let's focus on Greece here.
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On July 09 2015 03:49 YuiHirasawa wrote:
I really hope the grexit will happen. Then I hope it will spread to other countries too (even France, my home country). The EU achieved nothing for its members except feeding banks and corporate governments. What I say may sound like total populism but this is how it feels when you're a simple plebeian. I want a return to local and secluded economies which don't depend on the ECB's goodwill to do QE every year to keep them afloat.
Europe is big scam and I am sick of my country being one of Germany underlings.
Do it Tsipras, as Mister Farage said.
not sure what you're talking about when you said "my country"
your name is Japanese; and the tag for putting in country you put Japan. And that statement doesn't make sense if your country is indeed Japan, which is clearly not a German underling; so I'm guessing you've moved and haven't changed that label; not sure how one does that.
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On July 09 2015 11:17 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 03:49 YuiHirasawa wrote:
I really hope the grexit will happen. Then I hope it will spread to other countries too (even France, my home country). The EU achieved nothing for its members except feeding banks and corporate governments. What I say may sound like total populism but this is how it feels when you're a simple plebeian. I want a return to local and secluded economies which don't depend on the ECB's goodwill to do QE every year to keep them afloat.
Europe is big scam and I am sick of my country being one of Germany underlings.
Do it Tsipras, as Mister Farage said. not sure what you're talking about when you said "my country" your name is Japanese; and the tag for putting in country you put Japan. And that statement doesn't make sense if your country is indeed Japan, which is clearly not a German underling; so I'm guessing you've moved and haven't changed that label; not sure how one does that.
his name is this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZQhFFdW.png)
And I think he mentioned being from France or netherlands and having moved to JP?
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The top 4 banks mentioned in that article, did you know that their head managers STILL are getting bonuses and that those of them who are losing their job due to the merge will get a pension fund worth hundreds of thousands of dollars as compensation once they leave. Equal austerity my ass.
EDIT: also someone correct me if I'm wrong but this is the first time I've heard Greece actually cut on the banks which is a different approach to this.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this familiar refrain that 'we want a return to the world before globalization where people ruled vs corporations' is simply deluded. transnational driven globalization happened before EU and will be even more powerful without a powerful government to counterbalance.
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Globalization IS the future, there is no doubt. Those that adapt best will be in the best position going forward. The TPP should be a sobering wake up call for those of us in the USA.
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On July 09 2015 07:28 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 06:18 YuiHirasawa wrote:On July 09 2015 06:02 maartendq wrote:On July 09 2015 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 04:55 maartendq wrote:On July 09 2015 03:49 YuiHirasawa wrote:
I really hope the grexit will happen. Then I hope it will spread to other countries too (even France, my home country). The EU achieved nothing for its members except feeding banks and corporate governments. What I say may sound like total populism but this is how it feels when you're a simple plebeian. I want a return to local and secluded economies which don't depend on the ECB's goodwill to do QE every year to keep them afloat.
Europe is big scam and I am sick of my country being one of Germany underlings.
Do it Tsipras, as Mister Farage said. The EU has some major communication problems though. The EU does a lot more for its citizens than they can imagine, and anyone who thinks you can just "get out" without having to reform significant parts of both that country's economy and political system is delusional and needs to read up on the EU. I don't get this desire people suddenly have for "local secluded markets". It seems based on some romantic idea of a past that never even existed in the first place. It's not as if you can just keep globalisation out or reverse the whole process. It's here to stay until we somehow run out of energy to fuel it. The laptop you're typing your posts on is made in China, your fruit comes from South America, celery from spain, clothes from bangladesh etc. Also, we are not all slaves of some German fourth economic "reich". That's just a portrayal of the media because making people associate Germany with imperialism increases newspaper sales. The budget of the european union is around 130 billions a year - around 1 to 2 % of the european union GDP. It's so small what can you do with it ? It's pocket money. To give you a comparaison, the budget of France is 455.5 billions a year. Out of those 130 billions a years, 6 to 7 % are used for the administration, and the rest is mostly used for agricultural support (the common agricultural policy is 32 % of the budget) and regional support. Just the budget on communication of the EU represent almost what a country like Slovenia receive from the EU (when you substract what it gives) - and of course, at least half of european countries lose more than they get from the EU. So what does the europe actually do to its people ? Aside from undemocratic and technocratic pseudo solutions that actually always lead to more unemployment and less public services in the name of competition and free market. The rest of your post is plagued with the orpheus complex, this disease that prevent anyone to look back : nothing can stop the march of progress ! Globalization is the future of mankind. Hearing you suddenly made me realise why France got its panties into a bunch over Belgium's Waterloo coin. Just like the UK, there seem to be many people in France who nostalgically look back to a past when both countries still held a semblance of power over the world, and think that being free from the shackles of the EU will bring back the glory of yore. The world moves forward, not backward. Globalisation is a process that started when Spain and Portugal conquered South America in the 15th-16th century. Right now the US, China, Korea, Japan, the EU etc trade goods and services with countries across the world. It's not something that is suddenly going to stop. Yet all these economies are failing: Japan abenomics failed, Chinese stocks are plumetting, the US economy looks rather good too lol (I don't know why you included SK as it is irrelevant)... This is what you don't understand, you believe that capitalism is the end of all and that the world cannot get out of free trade. If Greece, then another country (Italy?), then another one (Spain?) decide they don't want to surrender to bankers anymore the dying debt-based economic system (the ECB interest rates are negative for some countries!!!) will collapse. The US economy is good at the moment though. The national debt is tangentially related but not at all a problem. You're just showing a fundamental misunderstanding of economics
Expanding...
Japan's been in stagflation for the last couple of decades, it's not easy to get out of. Anyways, most countries in the world would kill to have Japan's economy.
Everything I've read says that China's economy is doing pretty damn well, the stock market there doesn't have the same sort of importance in other developed nations.
I don't see what the US debt clock has to do with the US economy either. Debt to GDP doesn't really mean much. As long as you can make your interest payments no one really cares.
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China's economy is pretty sluggish at the moment. Growth rates going down below 7%, manufacturing decreasing etc. Add to that the fact that China usually makes their numbers look better and it's not going well at all. It's hardly a sign of the failure of capitalism though considering the massive state involvement.
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People who think globalization"is the future" think they are "modern" when in fact they are repeating 19th century arguments.
Globalization will eventually stop if it continue as it is. Aside from the environmental problems to come, there are thousand of indicators that point at a possible violent reversal.
By the way : that China has become the exemplar country for globalization and capitalism is a joke in itself.
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On July 09 2015 16:42 WhiteDog wrote:
People who think globalization"is the future" think they are "modern" when in fact they are repeating 19th century arguments.
Globalization will eventually stop if it continue as it is.
I doubt people would prefer to pay twice or thrice the price of goods because muh globalization tho.
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On July 09 2015 16:47 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 16:42 WhiteDog wrote:
People who think globalization"is the future" think they are "modern" when in fact they are repeating 19th century arguments.
Globalization will eventually stop if it continue as it is. I doubt people would prefer to pay twice or thrice the price of goods because muh globalization tho.
Because there's only consumption in your world ? People maximise a utility function that we can simplify to a consumption function right ? And two potatoes offer more utility than one so globalization is good....
No, in reality people want to work and not to receive money for nothing, people also desire justice and dignity, which goes hand in hand with sovereignty. And finally, people can also desire to protect nature for itself.
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On July 09 2015 16:51 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 16:42 WhiteDog wrote:
People who think globalization"is the future" think they are "modern" when in fact they are repeating 19th century arguments.
Globalization will eventually stop if it continue as it is. I doubt people would prefer to pay twice or thrice the price of goods because muh globalization tho. Because there's only consumption in your world ? People maximise a utility function that we can simplify to a consumption function right ? And two potatoes offer more utility than one so globalization is good.... No, in reality people want to work and not to receive money for nothing, people also desire justice and dignity, which goes hand in hand with sovereignty. And finally, people can also desire to protect nature for itself.
You have a very high value of what human want.
And saying that the EU hasn't help in the Justice and dignity department is liying to yourself.
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On July 09 2015 16:57 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 16:51 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 16:42 WhiteDog wrote:
People who think globalization"is the future" think they are "modern" when in fact they are repeating 19th century arguments.
Globalization will eventually stop if it continue as it is. I doubt people would prefer to pay twice or thrice the price of goods because muh globalization tho. Because there's only consumption in your world ? People maximise a utility function that we can simplify to a consumption function right ? And two potatoes offer more utility than one so globalization is good.... No, in reality people want to work and not to receive money for nothing, people also desire justice and dignity, which goes hand in hand with sovereignty. And finally, people can also desire to protect nature for itself. You have a very high value of what human want. And saying that the EU hasn't help in the Justice and dignity department is liying to yourself.
So tell me what the EU did to help justice and dignity ? The interdiction of spanking ? lol
What the EU did is creating competition (and forcing competition) between the european people, and the result is that it has sullied the idea of europe, to a point where half the people in every european country is now against most of what it is proposing, and want to get out of it (as the rise of the far right suggest).
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Environnemental laws, Humans rights, Protection of the private life, Health, The ban of obsolescence, compatibility of devices, etc...
And competition also led to lower price.
And if by half you mean 20%, whatever. And it is obviously a direc consequence of a crisis, not of the European directives.
Hell, even 80% of Greeks people want to stay in the EZ.
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On July 09 2015 17:02 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 16:57 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 16:51 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 16:42 WhiteDog wrote:
People who think globalization"is the future" think they are "modern" when in fact they are repeating 19th century arguments.
Globalization will eventually stop if it continue as it is. I doubt people would prefer to pay twice or thrice the price of goods because muh globalization tho. Because there's only consumption in your world ? People maximise a utility function that we can simplify to a consumption function right ? And two potatoes offer more utility than one so globalization is good.... No, in reality people want to work and not to receive money for nothing, people also desire justice and dignity, which goes hand in hand with sovereignty. And finally, people can also desire to protect nature for itself. You have a very high value of what human want. And saying that the EU hasn't help in the Justice and dignity department is liying to yourself. So tell me what the EU did to help justice and dignity ? The interdiction of spanking ? lol What the EU did is creating competition (and forcing competition) between the european people, and the result is that it has sullied the idea of europe, to a point where half the people in every european country is now against most of what it is proposing, and want to get out of it (as the rise of the far right suggest).
Gay rights, uncontrolled immigration and Feminism. Thanks EU! (Don't get me wrong all these things are real progress  )
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On July 09 2015 17:16 YuiHirasawa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 17:02 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 16:57 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 16:51 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 16:42 WhiteDog wrote:
People who think globalization"is the future" think they are "modern" when in fact they are repeating 19th century arguments.
Globalization will eventually stop if it continue as it is. I doubt people would prefer to pay twice or thrice the price of goods because muh globalization tho. Because there's only consumption in your world ? People maximise a utility function that we can simplify to a consumption function right ? And two potatoes offer more utility than one so globalization is good.... No, in reality people want to work and not to receive money for nothing, people also desire justice and dignity, which goes hand in hand with sovereignty. And finally, people can also desire to protect nature for itself. You have a very high value of what human want. And saying that the EU hasn't help in the Justice and dignity department is liying to yourself. So tell me what the EU did to help justice and dignity ? The interdiction of spanking ? lol What the EU did is creating competition (and forcing competition) between the european people, and the result is that it has sullied the idea of europe, to a point where half the people in every european country is now against most of what it is proposing, and want to get out of it (as the rise of the far right suggest). Gay rights, uncontrolled immigration and Feminism. Thanks EU! (Don't get me wrong all these things are real progress )
Uncontrolled immigration... You really are misinformed.
You must know that the recent issues with immigration comes from the death of Ghadafi. Since he's not longer here, people fly to Libya to cross the sea by thousands.
So now, what should we do ? Let them drown ? Shot them ?
We have no choice but to take them temporarily, that's like the major principe of the EU. We can't let people die like that.
But we can't accept them all either. That's why it's such a difficult subject that require much more than just aying "let's just block our frontiers are sea".
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EPT
