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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:43 Ghostcom wrote: Don't take Plansix too seriously. He is probably best known for complaining about Europeans commenting on US issues, yet here he is... I just recall I had some argument with it about starcraft2 balance; that's where the word "consistency" come from. so yeah he is just a troll actually. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On July 09 2015 03:49 YuiHirasawa wrote: I really hope the grexit will happen. Then I hope it will spread to other countries too (even France, my home country). The EU achieved nothing for its members except feeding banks and corporate governments. What I say may sound like total populism but this is how it feels when you're a simple plebeian. I want a return to local and secluded economies which don't depend on the ECB's goodwill to do QE every year to keep them afloat. Europe is big scam and I am sick of my country being one of Germany underlings. Do it Tsipras, as Mister Farage said. The EU has some major communication problems though. The EU does a lot more for its citizens than they can imagine, and anyone who thinks you can just "get out" without having to reform significant parts of both that country's economy and political system is delusional and needs to read up on the EU. I don't get this desire people suddenly have for "local secluded markets". It seems based on some romantic idea of a past that never even existed in the first place. It's not as if you can just keep globalisation out or reverse the whole process. It's here to stay until we somehow run out of energy to fuel it. The laptop you're typing your posts on is made in China, your fruit comes from South America, celery from spain, clothes from bangladesh etc. Also, we are not all slaves of some German fourth economic "reich". That's just a portrayal of the media because making people associate Germany with imperialism increases newspaper sales. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
What we should be trying to figure out is what's next for Greece... As far as I know, most Greeks do not want to exit the Eurozone. They don't want austerity either but I think they're aware that things would get worse long before it gets better with a hasty exit. There is certainly no legal framework for a Greece exit. They need to find some kind of compromise at least for now. Even if Tsipras manages to further stall, that comes with its costs as well. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:43 Ghostcom wrote: Don't take Plansix too seriously. He is probably best known for complaining about Europeans commenting on US issues, yet here he is... I was mostly commenting on someone who works for banks in debt collection, but whatever makes your argument stick. Trying to get blood for a stone happens to be one of my clients favorite actives. Sorry I got in the way of the Hate-Greece circle jerk, my bad. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:57 c0ldfusion wrote: I don't even know what we're arguing about. What we should be trying to figure out is what's next for Greece... As far as I know, most Greeks do not want to exit the Eurozone. They don't want austerity either but I think they're aware that things would get worse long before it gets better with a hasty exit. There is certainly no legal framework for a Greece exit. They need to find some kind of compromise at least for now. Even if Tsipras manages to further stall, that comes with its costs as well. Was the request for 3 year loan where Greece promised reforms already next week already shut down? The latest I can find about it is at 16:00 CEST. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22700 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:57 c0ldfusion wrote: I don't even know what we're arguing about. What we should be trying to figure out is what's next for Greece... As far as I know, most Greeks do not want to exit the Eurozone. They don't want austerity either but I think they're aware that things would get worse long before it gets better with a hasty exit. There is certainly no legal framework for a Greece exit. They need to find some kind of compromise at least for now. Even if Tsipras manages to further stall, that comes with its costs as well. I guess the issue is that the problem is at an impasse. EU cannot compromise because of the political situation. Greece cannot compromise because of the referendum. Time is limited because banks are running out soon. We're basically left to see who blinks first or if they keep it up until Greece runs into the wall. There are several solutions, they are just all unacceptable from one of the two sides. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:55 maartendq wrote: The EU has some major communication problems though. The EU does a lot more for its citizens than they can imagine, and anyone who thinks you can just "get out" without having to reform significant parts of both that country's economy and political system is delusional and needs to read up on the EU. I don't get this desire people suddenly have for "local secluded markets". It seems based on some romantic idea of a past that never even existed in the first place. It's not as if you can just keep globalisation out or reverse the whole process. It's here to stay until we somehow run out of energy to fuel it. The laptop you're typing your posts on is made in China, your fruit comes from South America, celery from spain, clothes from bangladesh etc. Also, we are not all slaves of some German fourth economic "reich". That's just a portrayal of the media because making people associate Germany with imperialism increases newspaper sales. I'm shocked at what I see on TV. I'm currently on hollidays in Spain with my grand mother, she is Italian and watch Italian news generally. All I see on TV is how Europe is bad, how Pepe Grillo is somewhat cool or even defending Berlusconi. Like WTF, the nationalistic and far-left party only own 20% of the parlament (5-Stars) yet all I see is how Europe is bad, and how they hate Merkel (only Merkel, like wtf she only represent her country, don't bash her for everything v_v). And the Spanish News is quite similar too. I don't get how they are so anti-european when without it we would be totally nowhere in the current global economy. The free trade and everything is what keep the EU competitive on the international market and getting rid of it will just impovrish all. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22700 Posts
On July 09 2015 05:00 Ghostcom wrote: Was the request for 3 year loan where Greece promised reforms already next week already shut down? The latest I can find about it is at 16:00 CEST. I dont think there has been an official comment on it. He would provide details on the reforms in 48 hours I believe. I would assume the ECB is waiting on those before reacting. Reuters is reporting a small step forward. The ESM has responded to Greece's loan request by asking the EU and the International Monetary Fund to review it. SourceReuters says the ESM's chairman Jeroen Dijsselbloem, has published a letter asking the European Commission and European Central Bank to assess: 1) Whether Greece's problems posed a threat to the stability of the eurozone as a whole or to its member states - a condition for eligibility for an ESM loan. 2) With the International Monetary Fund, whether Greece's public debt is sustainable. 3) How much financing Greece may need. "These assessments... will form the basis for the ESM... decision whether to grant, in principle, stability support to the Hellenic Republic in the form of a loan," Mr Dijsselbloem wrote. Looks like a stall for time by the ESM. most of what he is asking for is already known and published. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:55 maartendq wrote: The EU has some major communication problems though. The EU does a lot more for its citizens than they can imagine, and anyone who thinks you can just "get out" without having to reform significant parts of both that country's economy and political system is delusional and needs to read up on the EU. I don't get this desire people suddenly have for "local secluded markets". It seems based on some romantic idea of a past that never even existed in the first place. It's not as if you can just keep globalisation out or reverse the whole process. It's here to stay until we somehow run out of energy to fuel it. The laptop you're typing your posts on is made in China, your fruit comes from South America, celery from spain, clothes from bangladesh etc. Also, we are not all slaves of some German fourth economic "reich". That's just a portrayal of the media because making people associate Germany with imperialism increases newspaper sales. The budget of the european union is around 130 billions a year - around 1 to 2 % of the european union GDP. It's so small what can you do with it ? It's pocket money. To give you a comparaison, the budget of France is 455.5 billions a year. Out of those 130 billions a years, 6 to 7 % are used for the administration, and the rest is mostly used for agricultural support (the common agricultural policy is 32 % of the budget) and regional support. Just the budget on communication of the EU represent almost what a country like Slovenia receive from the EU (when you substract what it gives) - and of course, at least half of european countries lose more than they get from the EU. So what does the europe actually do to its people ? Aside from undemocratic and technocratic pseudo solutions that actually always lead to more unemployment and less public services in the name of competition and free market. The rest of your post is plagued with the orpheus complex, this disease that prevent anyone to look back : nothing can stop the march of progress ! Globalization is the future of mankind. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:57 c0ldfusion wrote: I don't even know what we're arguing about. What we should be trying to figure out is what's next for Greece... As far as I know, most Greeks do not want to exit the Eurozone. They don't want austerity either but I think they're aware that things would get worse long before it gets better with a hasty exit. There is certainly no legal framework for a Greece exit. They need to find some kind of compromise at least for now. Even if Tsipras manages to further stall, that comes with its costs as well. Stalling is the worst case-scenario, because it means the capital controls remain in effect, which means there is actual, 1600s style poverty happening because there is no money to import food or petrol. The also need to get, somehow, to a primary surplus, because no loans matter without that. Also, I think they should cut tax rates, because as we know Greeks are evading taxes anyways. So they are getting all of the negative incentives and results from high marginal tax rates, with little or none of the government revenue. I doubt that tax cut would change revenues much, but it would help with compliance and then they can work on actually establishing the institutions that would maintain that long term. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
This might already be the end of the party's mainstream ambitions, as Lucke was the only one who somewhat resembled a serious professional in the party and made it attractive to parts of the populace even reaching into the mid of society. It is being speculated that a lof of the party's more moderate members will be leaving with him. Rejoice! Source (was hard to find anything English on this) | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 09 2015 05:17 ACrow wrote: Oh, by the way, one positive bit of news today (a repercussion from the weekend actually) is, that the AFD (Alternative für Deutschland = Alternative for Germany, the new local Anti-Euro, Anti-Immigration right wing party) seems to be splitting already before they got any bigger, as the founder of it, Bernd Lucke, just left the party after internal struggles with the right wing of the party, which is very close to PEGIDA (the anti-islamic and borderline racist movement that originated in the eastern parts of Germany and was in the news back in spring). This might already be the end of the party's mainstream ambitions, as Lucke was the only one who somewhat resembled a serious professional in the party and made it attractive to parts of the populace even reaching into the mid of society. It is being speculated that a lof of the party's more moderate members will be leaving with him. Rejoice! Source (was hard to find anything English on this) Seems like Germany is better at dealing with populist far right party than some other countries :p But I won't complain that much, the NVA in Belgium has changed quite a bit since its early days. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 09 2015 05:06 WhiteDog wrote: So what does the europe actually do to its people ? Aside from undemocratic and technocratic pseudo solutions that actually always lead to more unemployment and less public services in the name of competition and free market. well for once it has passed some very reasonable environmental legislation over the last two decades and past some decent privacy and net neutrality laws, something which most national governments regularly try to undermine. On the lawmaking side of things the EU is actually pretty consumer friendly. | ||
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YuiHirasawa
Japan220 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:55 maartendq wrote: I don't get this desire people suddenly have for "local secluded markets". It seems based on some romantic idea of a past that never even existed in the first place. It's not as if you can just keep globalisation out or reverse the whole process. It's here to stay until we somehow run out of energy to fuel it. The laptop you're typing your posts on is made in China, your fruit comes from South America, celery from spain, clothes from bangladesh etc. France's GDP is ranked 6 (arguably, it should be 5 as contrary to the UK we don't count prostitution in our GDP). How a country like that being outside of the EU, on a sovereign soil ruled by its own rules, with local markets helped by protectionism and with its own currency, would prevent it to get all these goods? The EU is only good to fast forward globalization and the bankers goal for a worldwide government. Even this Greek crisis is a fraud: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-06/who-biggest-winner-greek-tragedy | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On July 09 2015 05:06 WhiteDog wrote: The budget of the european union is around 130 billions a year - around 1 to 2 % of the european union GDP. It's so small what can you do with it ? It's pocket money. To give you a comparaison, the budget of France is 455.5 billions a year. Out of those 130 billions a years, 6 to 7 % are used for the administration, and the rest is mostly used for agricultural support (the common agricultural policy is 32 % of the budget) and regional support. Just the budget on communication of the EU represent almost what a country like Slovenia receive from the EU (when you substract what it gives) - and of course, at least half of european countries lose more than they get from the EU. So what does the europe actually do to its people ? Aside from undemocratic and technocratic pseudo solutions that actually always lead to more unemployment and less public services in the name of competition and free market. The rest of your post is plagued with the orpheus complex, this disease that prevent anyone to look back : nothing can stop the march of progress ! Globalization is the future of mankind. Hearing you suddenly made me realise why France got its panties into a bunch over Belgium's Waterloo coin. Just like the UK, there seem to be many people in France who nostalgically look back to a past when both countries still held a semblance of power over the world, and think that being free from the shackles of the EU will bring back the glory of yore. The world moves forward, not backward. Globalisation is a process that started when Spain and Portugal conquered South America in the 15th-16th century. Right now the US, China, Korea, Japan, the EU etc trade goods and services with countries across the world. It's not something that is suddenly going to stop. | ||
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YuiHirasawa
Japan220 Posts
On July 09 2015 06:02 maartendq wrote: Hearing you suddenly made me realise why France got its panties into a bunch over Belgium's Waterloo coin. Just like the UK, there seem to be many people in France who nostalgically look back to a past when both countries still held a semblance of power over the world, and think that being free from the shackles of the EU will bring back the glory of yore. The world moves forward, not backward. Globalisation is a process that started when Spain and Portugal conquered South America in the 15th-16th century. Right now the US, China, Korea, Japan, the EU etc trade goods and services with countries across the world. It's not something that is suddenly going to stop. Yet all these economies are failing: Japan abenomics failed, Chinese stocks are plumetting, the US economy looks rather good too lol (I don't know why you included SK as it is irrelevant)... This is what you don't understand, you believe that capitalism is the end of all and that the world cannot get out of free trade. If Greece, then another country (Italy?), then another one (Spain?) decide they don't want to surrender to bankers anymore the dying debt-based economic system (the ECB interest rates are negative for some countries!!!) will collapse. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:57 c0ldfusion wrote: I don't even know what we're arguing about. What we should be trying to figure out is what's next for Greece... As far as I know, most Greeks do not want to exit the Eurozone. They don't want austerity either but I think they're aware that things would get worse long before it gets better with a hasty exit. There is certainly no legal framework for a Greece exit. They need to find some kind of compromise at least for now. Even if Tsipras manages to further stall, that comes with its costs as well. Good point,what will be next. Atm I have no idea tbh. The eu is obviously not prepared to let Greece go and Greece is not prepared or able to make reforums. For me it is very difficult to judge tsipras. Will he go ham or will he start to cooperate. There are 2 options I see. 1-the eu gives in a little bit and makes a deal, they will sell it to the population as if Greece did accept all their demands. 2-the eu does not give in, giving the ball to tsipras. Tsipras now has 2 options 1-give in to all demands the eu makes, this seems very unlikely. He has not done so in the past and while the pressure put on the greek banks could change his mind I somehow doubt he will. 2-not giving in to the demands and maintaining the status quo. Option 2 will lead to chaos in Greece,huge chaos. Chaos so big that I can imagine the military taking over control of the country,followed by a military government making a deal with the eu. It seems an impossible scenario atm but I don't rule this out at all. This off course, would be a sad day for democracy. And ironic,as democracy started in Greece. Lets not forget western society owes a lot to the ancient greeks who paved the way for whole modern society. There is a 3rd option, a compromise. We in the Netherlands love compromises but in this situation both sides seem to be dug in and not prepared to make any compromise. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On July 09 2015 06:18 YuiHirasawa wrote: Yet all these economies are failing: Japan abenomics failed, Chinese stocks are plumetting, the US economy looks rather good too lol (I don't know why you included SK as it is irrelevant)... This is what you don't understand, you believe that capitalism is the end of all and that the world cannot get out of free trade. If Greece, then another country (Italy?), then another one (Spain?) decide they don't want to surrender to bankers anymore the dying debt-based economic system (the ECB interest rates are negative for some countries!!!) will collapse. These problems you mention have nothing to do with not having local, secluded economies. Let me guess, you work in one of those industries France is not good at and you want to continue your inefficient free ride. | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
On July 09 2015 06:37 andrewlt wrote: These problems you mention have nothing to do with not having local, secluded economies. Let me guess, you work in one of those industries France is not good at and you want to continue your inefficient free ride. one global economy can only work in one global country. you cant have 200 countrys, 10 produce everything and 190 have to buy it with debt. and if a country wants to produce something for themself, you dont allow it, cause secluded economies are bad, and everyone should buy from you, with money borrowed from you. why cant you see that idiotic cycle, which is so obvious today .. | ||
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pretender58
Germany713 Posts
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