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On July 07 2015 22:12 unsaeglich wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 21:58 Plansix wrote:On July 07 2015 21:50 DucK- wrote:
Btw, anyone with a short statement as to why Greeks voted against the deal? My understanding is that they still want all their welfare instead of relying on hard work to save the economy? ie a bankrupt wanting to continue their spending ways Years of crippling unemployment with no end in sight and a population that is sick of it. Even if they could work, they don't have the option. And lets not forget that there were banks that received much larger bail outs for being far more irresponsible than Greece. What does it have to do with banks? Greece is just borrowing money since forever, ofcourse it's coming back at some point, and now it's evil bank?
Evil perhaps not, but the bank which loaned the money in the first place made a wrong assumption if the money cannot be repaid (even if the assumption was based on lies, it still means the verification process was lacking). Looking back, Greece probably should have had trouble borrowing since last century.
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On July 07 2015 23:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 22:59 ticklishmusic wrote:
Greece reminds me of one of those people who somehow gets a few million dollars in loans (in one way or another) and lives lavishly and far beyond their means. When the money runs out the first time, they're able to get another loan (ostensibly since they have assets, which they acquired with funds from the previous loan or by falsifying records). Then when the money really runs out... they have no plan. Having worked at the end of that story for years in debt collection, I can tell you that the real question is how they got to borrow the money in the first place. And in the previous lending climate, it was mostly because lenders were idiots and didn’t care. Blaming the borrower is only half the equation. It’s why I never feel bad when my client’s get their debt wiped out during bankruptcy. I don’t think that’s 100% true for Greece, but it’s part of the discussion. Trying to get blood from a stone is normally fruitless.
I don't think anybody wants or expects Greece to magically become solvent overnight. What people want to see is some structural reforms that at least show some hope of Greece being solvent in 5 to 10 years. The problem is that the Greek government is apparently completely unconcerned about being solvent at all, and just want their debts erased (which does nothing, except guarantee that we will be in this exact same situation again in a couple of years when the new debts they have to take on due to being insolvent in the first place come due).
And no, I don't care whose plan it is: the Troika had a plan that they all believe in will work. The Greeks rejected that, so now it is up to them to come up with a plan, and convince the Troika that that new plan will work. Tsipras now scheduled a meeting without having ANY plan (working or not). It is utter incompetence. What the hell have they been doing for the last 5 months?
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Edit: nevermind this went down
new proposal tomorrow I guess
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Acrofales, I don't understand you. Greece accepting the EU plans would mean the economy would keep shrinking, their total debt would keep increasing, their percentage of GDP spend on paying back old loans would keep getting bigger, and talented hardworking people sitting at home doing nothing would keep increasing as well.
The only way to become solvent is to restructure the debt and have a break in austerity so that the detb and GDP Greece is left with is of such a nature that the financial market gains trust in Greece and that it becomes clear Greece won't need a new bailout or be at risk of a new Grexit crisis.
Any plan that doesn't take a Grexit or Greece default off the table won't be a solution. It will just push the problem back further and make either a future restructuring or a future collapse of Greece more expensive. This problem could have been solved cheaply 5 years ago. If they don't solve it now, it will be super-expensive in 5 years. At some point then even if we do want to save Greece, we won't be able to afford it. Maybe politicians hoped that public opinion would move towards unified Europe/Greece, but it has only gotten worse. If Merkel and co don't finally get off their asses and save Greece&the Euro this week, it will never be saved. Sure, Merket's career will be over and she will be a pariah for ever, but that is what you get for wanting to go into politics. If she doesn't she will be the destroyer of the Euro in the history books.
On July 07 2015 23:16 c0ldfusion wrote:Are you serious? How reliable is this?
It is our Dutch national media. Not very reliable. They are paid by/reflect government opinion and so far have been very biased against Greece.
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The Banks Job:
Lending Money too states/People after they check if they will be able to pay it back.
Now tell me.. Did the Banks do their Job? Hell no, did the danks pay for this? Hell no.
privatize earnings, socialise losses... Its textbook.
Is Greece free of blame? For sure not, but just blaming the Greeks is way too easy (and plain stupid).
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On July 07 2015 23:12 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 23:06 Plansix wrote:On July 07 2015 22:59 ticklishmusic wrote:
Greece reminds me of one of those people who somehow gets a few million dollars in loans (in one way or another) and lives lavishly and far beyond their means. When the money runs out the first time, they're able to get another loan (ostensibly since they have assets, which they acquired with funds from the previous loan or by falsifying records). Then when the money really runs out... they have no plan. Having worked at the end of that story for years in debt collection, I can tell you that the real question is how they got to borrow the money in the first place. And in the previous lending climate, it was mostly because lenders were idiots and didn’t care. Blaming the borrower is only half the equation. It’s why I never feel bad when my client’s get their debt wiped out during bankruptcy. I don’t think that’s 100% true for Greece, but it’s part of the discussion. Trying to get blood from a stone is normally fruitless. I don't think anybody wants or expects Greece to magically become solvent overnight. What people want to see is some structural reforms that at least show some hope of Greece being solvent in 5 to 10 years. The problem is that the Greek government is apparently completely unconcerned about being solvent at all, and just want their debts erased (which does nothing, except guarantee that we will be in this exact same situation again in a couple of years when the new debts they have to take on due to being insolvent in the first place come due). And no, I don't care whose plan it is: the Troika had a plan that they all believe in will work. The Greeks rejected that, so now it is up to them to come up with a plan, and convince the Troika that that new plan will work. Tsipras now scheduled a meeting without having ANY plan (working or not). It is utter incompetence. What the hell have they been doing for the last 5 months?
I am just pointing out that someone made the decision to lend Greece money and likely suspected they couldn't pay it back. Greece may be incompetent now, but the lenders were just as incompetent before.
On July 07 2015 23:17 Velr wrote:
The Banks Job:
Lending Money too states/People after they check if they will be able to pay it back.
Now tell me.. Did the Banks do their Job? Hell no, did the danks pay for this? Hell no.
privatize earnings, socialise losses... Its textbook.
Is Greece free of blame? For sure not, but just blaming the Greeks is way too easy (and plain stupid).
Its easier though. If you follow a lot of the reporting of the crisis over the last 5 years it was pretty obvious to anyone who dug deep this would happen if Greece got in trouble. But that is the problem with lending prior to the big crash, no done dug deep enough. But that's now it normally goes with debt and news related to people/countries that default.
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On July 07 2015 23:20 Plansix wrote:
I am just pointing out that someone made the decision to lend Greece money and likely suspected they couldn't pay it back. Greece may be incompetent now, but the lenders were just as incompetent before.
You mean reckless and greedy gamblers?
No one blames the casino if a gambler loses his money. Greece was our casino. (ignoring making banking risks public, keeping banking profits private, which is how this all started). Yet everyone spins it as Greece cheating us out of our money, having a party, and playing us all for fools for 5 years.
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On July 07 2015 23:16 Alcathous wrote:Acrofales, I don't understand you. Greece accepting the EU plans would mean the economy would keep shrinking, their total debt would keep increasing, their percentage of GDP spend on paying back old loans would keep getting bigger, and talented hardworking people sitting at home doing nothing would keep increasing as well. The only way to become solvent is to restructure the debt and have a break in austerity so that the detb and GDP Greece is left with is of such a nature that the financial market gains trust in Greece and that it becomes clear Greece won't need a new bailout or be at risk of a new Grexit crisis. Any plan that doesn't take a Grexit or Greece default off the table won't be a solution. It will just push the problem back further and make either a future restructuring or a future collapse of Greece more expensive. Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 23:16 c0ldfusion wrote:Are you serious? How reliable is this? It is our Dutch national media. Not very reliable. They are paid by/reflect government opinion and so far have been very biased against Greece.
The NOS is actually very good, journalistically speaking. They confirm their sources and don't just print any old crap that happens to end up in their lap. So if they are reporting that the Greeks have no plan, I will believe it.
As for austerity or no austerity: it doesn't really matter to me. I am not versed enough in economy to know how that works, and I doubt that 90% of the people who have a strong opinion on it do either. Austerity works for my household economy: don't spend more than you have. Don't take on loans that you cannot pay off, even if something bad happens. Whether it works on the scale of a country? No idea really, but my point is that it doesn't matter that I don't know that. It's not my job to convince the troika that austerity won't work in Greece. It's Tsipras and Tsakakakatokoulos (or so) job to do so. Either that, or accept that austerity is the ONLY plan anybody has come up with that has a chance of working.
Coming to the negotiation table with no plan and no intention (or with the referendum, even possibility) of accepting the other's plan is utter incompetence, and they should be fired on the spot for it.
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I'm telling you guys. They will keep up this farce of a negotiation for as long as possible and then some after that.
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On July 07 2015 23:21 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 23:20 Plansix wrote:
I am just pointing out that someone made the decision to lend Greece money and likely suspected they couldn't pay it back. Greece may be incompetent now, but the lenders were just as incompetent before. You mean reckless and greedy gamblers? No one blames the casino if a gambler loses his money. Greece was our casino. (ignoring making banking risks public, keeping banking profits private, which is how this all started). Yet everyone spins it as Greece cheating us out of our money, having a party, and playing us all for fools for 5 years.
I am still in awe they got into the Eurozone. NPR's Planet Money did an in depth look into how they got it and it was the most half backed pile of BS I ever heard. But they got in because someone wanted them there, likely to lend money to and try to get a good return. Same thing with subprime loans.
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On July 07 2015 23:24 Acrofales wrote:
The NOS is actually very good, journalistically speaking. They confirm their sources and don't just print any old crap that happens to end up in their lap. So if they are reporting that the Greeks have no plan, I will believe it.
You speak Dutch? You sure you speak Dutch well enough to get the subtle spin? On a scale where North Korea is the worst at propaganda, NOS are some of the best. Very subtle, very efficient spinning. Dutch audience is quite sophisticated, and they have to adjust to that.
Coming to the negotiation table with no plan and no intention (or with the referendum, even possibility) of accepting the other's plan is utter incompetence, and they should be fired on the spot for it.
True, but for both sides.
On July 07 2015 23:28 Plansix wrote:
I am still in awe they got into the Eurozone. NPR's Planet Money did an in depth look into how they got it and it was the most half backed pile of BS I ever heard. But they got in because someone wanted them there, likely to lend money to and try to get a good return. Same thing with subprime loans.
Germany needed spending/importing countries in the Eurozone to export to.
Not every country in the Eurozone can have a trade surplus.
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On July 07 2015 23:29 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 23:24 Acrofales wrote:
The NOS is actually very good, journalistically speaking. They confirm their sources and don't just print any old crap that happens to end up in their lap. So if they are reporting that the Greeks have no plan, I will believe it.
You speak Dutch? You sure you speak Dutch well enough to get the subtle spin? On a scale where North Korea is the worst at propaganda, NOS are some of the best. Very subtle, very efficient spinning. Dutch audience is quite sophisticated, and they have to adjust to that. Show nested quote +
Coming to the negotiation table with no plan and no intention (or with the referendum, even possibility) of accepting the other's plan is utter incompetence, and they should be fired on the spot for it.
True, but for both sides.
I am Dutch. Don't let my current location fool you. Also, I have told you before: take off your tinfoil hat and stop thinking Niburu brings the news.
E: the Troika has a plan. It's the plan they proposed and the Greeks shot down. The ball is clearly in the Greece's court. What can the other party do except wait to see how the Greeks want to handle this? They have made it abundantly clear that they won't accept whatever the Troika is proposing, so lets see a counterproposal.
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Actually, I find the idea that western media/European media are 100% objective thinfoilhat Niburi crazythink.
On top of that, NOS is government-funded.
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On July 07 2015 23:17 Velr wrote:
The Banks Job:
Lending Money too states/People after they check if they will be able to pay it back.
Now tell me.. Did the Banks do their Job? Hell no, did the danks pay for this? Hell no.
privatize earnings, socialise losses... Its textbook.
Is Greece free of blame? For sure not, but just blaming the Greeks is way too easy (and plain stupid).
They took a big haircut. Maybe it should've been higher but it's not like they lost no money on it.
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They would/should have gone Bankrupt and the State could have used the bailout Money to save the peoples assets.
A Haircut... Oh noes... lol.
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On July 07 2015 23:37 Velr wrote:
They would/should have gone Bankrupt and the State could have used the bailout Money to save the peoples assets.
A Haircut... Oh noes... lol.
Oh no, the lender might not get back some money that they were never likely to get back anyways and should have known it when they handed out the high risk loan! Whatever will the lender do?
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On July 07 2015 23:12 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 23:06 Plansix wrote:On July 07 2015 22:59 ticklishmusic wrote:
Greece reminds me of one of those people who somehow gets a few million dollars in loans (in one way or another) and lives lavishly and far beyond their means. When the money runs out the first time, they're able to get another loan (ostensibly since they have assets, which they acquired with funds from the previous loan or by falsifying records). Then when the money really runs out... they have no plan. Having worked at the end of that story for years in debt collection, I can tell you that the real question is how they got to borrow the money in the first place. And in the previous lending climate, it was mostly because lenders were idiots and didn’t care. Blaming the borrower is only half the equation. It’s why I never feel bad when my client’s get their debt wiped out during bankruptcy. I don’t think that’s 100% true for Greece, but it’s part of the discussion. Trying to get blood from a stone is normally fruitless. I don't think anybody wants or expects Greece to magically become solvent overnight. What people want to see is some structural reforms that at least show some hope of Greece being solvent in 5 to 10 years. The problem is that the Greek government is apparently completely unconcerned about being solvent at all, and just want their debts erased (which does nothing, except guarantee that we will be in this exact same situation again in a couple of years when the new debts they have to take on due to being insolvent in the first place come due). And no, I don't care whose plan it is: the Troika had a plan that they all believe in will work. The Greeks rejected that, so now it is up to them to come up with a plan, and convince the Troika that that new plan will work. Tsipras now scheduled a meeting without having ANY plan (working or not). It is utter incompetence. What the hell have they been doing for the last 5 months?
Oh, I completely agree Plansix (although you are dirty debt collector scum  )-- there's blame for both parties here. Banks providing money like that led to our wonderful recession after all, and to this day I don't quite understand how 90% investment banking works from a basic logical perspective when risk is supposed to equal return. Tangent aside, while an individual can use the excuse that they're financially illiterate (though that doesn't apply to my example) a sovereign state like Greece should know better. Key word being should.
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Maybe the eu can sue goldman sachs for the losses.
After all it was goldman sachs that helped the greek government massage their economic data so that Greece could join the eu/euro while not meeting the criteria.
well,one can dream.
Maybe if ttip is there we can sue, though its probably meant for business to sue government for money and not the other way around.
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On July 07 2015 23:32 Alcathous wrote:
Actually, I find the idea that western media/European media are 100% objective thinfoilhat Niburi crazythink.
On top of that, NOS is government-funded.
Where do I ever say they are 100% objective? I just say that the NOS gets their facts straight. I know they are pro-government, and slightly left-leaning. But if they say "X happened" then I will believe X happened.
If they say "X happened because the Greeks are incompetent twats", then I will believe X happened and make up my own mind over whether the Greeks are incompetent twats. In this case, I don't doubt that Tsipras is an incompetent twat, because EVERYTHING he has done for the last 5 months has led me to believe that.
Do I like Dijsselbloem? Not at all. Do I think that he's doing a good job with the negotiation with Greece? Not really, but I don't think anybody else would have done a better job either. It's a really hard situation, and I commend him, Juncker and Schauble for coming up with a packet that most of the rest of Europe seems to agree with as a way forward for Greece. He has not been very good in convincing the Greeks, but at this point I am not sure anybody could do anything with Syriza: they don't seem to have the first idea what they are doing, and how to lead their country out of the mess it is currently in.
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Here you go Alcathous, tho I guess the BBC is also utterly unreliable
BBC source that there was no plan from Greece today
Seriously man, every time you open your mouth your bias radiates like a badly made nuclear reactor.
Supposedly they are will present a plan tomorrow. But then why didn't they do it today.
Bunch of amateurs.
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EPT
