EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 168
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 07 2015 23:42 Rassy wrote: Maybe the eu can sue goldman sachs for the losses. After all it was goldman sachs that helped the greek government massage their economic data so that Greece could join the eu/euro while not meeting the criteria. If I have learned anything in this field, its that bankers never get blamed for anything. They are valuable institutions that shouldn't be held accountable if people want to cook the books. Like the guy who came up with the system for reporting government backed loans as 100% paid off when they are issued, because they are backed by the government. That means can hand out like a bunch in a quarter and report them all as profit! No one would ever use that to cook their books when it comes to lending. And of course that guy can't be blamed for coming up with such an easily abused book keeping system. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
The whole situation would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad for the people involved. They will find a way out, and the eu will budge as Greece wont. Then next is Italy in 2 years and that will be the final nail. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10155 Posts
On July 07 2015 23:42 Rassy wrote: Maybe the eu can sue goldman sachs for the losses. Draghi should sue himself, i agree. | ||
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
If only it was only Draghi... | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
Not only Draghi. Former Goldman Sachs frauds run the EU in many positions. | ||
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Noizhende
Austria328 Posts
where is the self criticism in the eu? (if we make a habit out of blaming the weakest link for everything that goes wrong, then this eu will not last long) why is the eu blaming greece for a disaster it made itself by not checking properly if greece was fit for the currency union? why did the politicians wait so long before supporting the greek state properly, once it was clear that everyone would be speculating against them. our politicians are either incompetent, which is bad, or they wanted this to happen, which is even worse. just as velr wrote, they have socialized the losses from the crisis and privatized the profits, it's textbook | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 07 2015 23:56 Noizhende wrote: yeah it's a farce, the farce is the crisis management of the eu. it's not the greeks who are playing us, it's our politicians who are playing against the public. where is the self criticism in the eu? (if we make a habit out of blaming the weakest link for everything that goes wrong, then this eu will not last long) why is the eu blaming greece for a disaster it made itself by not checking properly if greece was fit for the currency union? why did the politicians wait so long before supporting the greek state properly, once it was clear that everyone would be speculating against them. our politicians are either incompetent, which is bad, or they wanted this to happen, which is even worse. just as velr wrote, they have socialized the losses from the crisis and privatized the profits, it's textbook Because it is easier to blame a country with no economic power than huge financial institutions that hold both financial and political power. Water travels the route of least resistance, just like politicians. | ||
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
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Noizhende
Austria328 Posts
On July 07 2015 23:57 Plansix wrote: Goldman Sachs is a valuable part of the America finical market and I won't have you folks sullying their name for totally legitimate bullshit they pulled from 2000-2007. We must accept the fact that they are to big to be policed and the US government is to dysfunctional to change that. Because it is easier to blame a country with no economic power than huge financial institutions that hold both financial and political power. Water travels the route of least resistance, just like politicians. yeah sure, i'm just frustrated because there's apparently a majority of people who can't see that and i'm rather fond of democracy :D | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2846 Posts
Its to late for that now because they are already out. But what France and Germany could do is to make a special bank tax that take a % of stock divends or profit from stock sales from the concerned banks untill they get their money back. But it wont happen. It still doesnt change that Greece needs reforms. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 08 2015 00:14 Noizhende wrote: yeah sure, i'm just frustrated because there's apparently a majority of people who can't see that and i'm rather fond of democracy :D Democracy is great. The problem is that it only works when the people feel empowered and have some sort of control. Even prisoners in jail will starve themselves in protest to change things. Starving yourself is bad for your health. But when its all you have, you use it. And also people need to think about the idea of 5-10 years of recession and mass unemployment for that country. It may seem like "tough love," but that sort of environment leads to weird things like radicalization of unemployed youth and other forms of "employment". Especially if they have a good reason to dislike other countries in the EU. On July 08 2015 00:02 Furikawari wrote: Guys, u r losing the target, let me remind you that it's Greece that is evil. Of course and all the dead beats who took out subprime loans from Goldman Sachs are also in league with the devil. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
There's a reason that even other countries who had trouble (Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc.) can borrow at low rates. Since the Eurozone rules aren't clear, some lenders believe the stronger economies would backstop the weaker economies. Before the crisis erupted, plenty of those lenders were the big banks from the stronger economies. You'd think these big bankers and politicians would actually talk to each other and clarify stuff while hanging out in the same social circles. The stupidity on all sides is just staggering. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 08 2015 00:51 andrewlt wrote: Can't fully blame the lenders on this one. The Eurozone politicians never made it clear how bankruptcies are supposed to work there. They just pretended that it can never happen if they have no mechanism in place to deal with it. Greece is essentially bankrupt and their argument is that Greece is not bankrupt because the Eurozone doesn't have a bankruptcy mechanism. There's a reason that even other countries who had trouble (Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc.) can borrow at low rates. Since the Eurozone rules aren't clear, some lenders believe the stronger economies would backstop the weaker economies. Before the crisis erupted, plenty of those lenders were the big banks from the stronger economies. You'd think these big bankers and politicians would actually talk to each other and clarify stuff while hanging out in the same social circles. The stupidity on all sides is just staggering. I love that you assume that the lenders don’t love this system and love that it’s unclear. As someone who works for them, they love government backed loans. Lending to whole nations is better because the debt will never get discharged. Its zero risk lending and when it all goes wrong, you can just have Germany fight it out. Hand out all the loans you want, make as much money as possible and then let other people hash it out because you’ve moved on to another back or sold the debt to someone else. | ||
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farvacola
United States18866 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On July 08 2015 00:55 Plansix wrote: I love that you assume that the lenders don’t love this system and love that it’s unclear. As someone who works for them, they love government backed loans. Lending to whole nations is better because the debt will never get discharged. Its zero risk lending and when it all goes wrong, you can just have Germany fight it out. Hand out all the loans you want, make as much money as possible and then let other people hash it out because you’ve moved on to another back or sold the debt to someone else. That's why I said you can't fully blame the lenders. The Eurozone pretty much set themselves to be taken advantaged of. And it's not just the big banks who are doing it. Plenty of mom and pop retirees doing a little research are doing the same shit. Everybody in a developed country pretty much has their retirement (whether through pensions, 401k, social security or self-invested) invested in government bonds. | ||
disciple
9071 Posts
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Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18393 Posts
On July 08 2015 01:42 disciple wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but the largest part of greeks debt in 2010 was to private entities. With the restructuring of the debt IMF and ECB essentially bailed all private banks cause the money that was lent to Greece was by and large used to to cover the debts to them. Its kinda like being sent a debt collector to break your knees and burn your house if you dont pay up cause the guy that gave the money to begin with has no laverage to get it back. Here: the Greece crisis in a nutshell: Look at it this way: five years ago, the banks were about to send a debt collector to break Greece's knees and burn its house (because Greece was about to default on those loans). So the EU stepped in and said: "wait! we can't have this! don't break Greece's legs! We will help!" and bailed out Greece by paying off their debts (and negotiating a haircut with the banks). In return, Greece did some reforms. However, the whole economic situation didn't improve as much as was hoped (it was a pipe dream that the economy would improve enough), and now, 5 years later, Greece is about to default to their new sugardaddy, the EU (and is already late with their payment to the IMF). In all cases, the tax payer on the street + Show Spoiler [to clarify] + the street in Germany, Italy, France. etc. The tax payer in Greek is already royally fucked + Show Spoiler [joke] + insofar as there are taxpayers in Greece! *chortle* Best case scenario for everybody: a new agreement is reached, and between debt relief and restructuring, most of the money will come back in about 50 years or so, assuming the Greek economy manages to recover enough to start paying back the loans. The current problem is that the EU ministers have 0 trust in the Greek government to perform the necessary reforms, and the Greek government has 0 trust in the EU that they won't get shamelessly exploited, lose all their autonomy and be a virtual slave to the Troika for the foreseeable future. Neither side will accept that everybody is trying to find a workable solution, and they especially don't agree on what a workable solution looks like. And, imho, it doesn't help at all that Tsipras is an incompetent twat. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22487 Posts
On July 08 2015 01:57 Wolfstan wrote: Why is letting Greece just leave the euro and get no more money not the primary option? All these "negotiations" seem rather fruitless. Basically all of the worthwhile people and young talent have already left Greece for better opportunities and markets. They can certainly figure it out because there is very little way to go up after an exit. Because the Eurozone politicians believe that the Euro should be an inviolable union, a union that can never be broken. That is why when they wrote the agreements they did not add a clause that actually allows you to leave the Eurozone. Of course reality doesn't work that way, you want to be able to kick out a member state that actively sabotages your union. | ||
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