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On July 07 2015 16:21 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 06:50 Gorsameth wrote:On July 07 2015 05:37 c0ldfusion wrote:
Dijsselbloem maintains that there are structural problems with Greece. I think we can largely agree with that statement.
He's not going to budge.
How is Tsipras going to get something done tomorrow? Or even make progress... Here is my vision. The Eurogroup cannot and will not budge, the reasons have been stated often enough. The Greek vote changes nothing here. The democratic choice of 1 country will not change the political reality in Europe. Tsipras cannot accept the Eurogroups offer, it would be political suicide after the No, nor can he offer a good enough deal to the Eurozone without again going against the referendum. The negotiations will enter a gridlock right away and be stuck until something in Greece fails and forces the issue. Most likely is the banks simply running out of money and forcing Drachma's to be printed to save the common people, otherwise this will last till the 20th and a default to the ECB will force the issue. By the looks of it the ECB is already trying to force the issue: there will be no extra money for Greek banks. Edit: what baffles me is how many people seem to think that Tsipras' referendum has anything to do with, or even redefines democracy.
What baffle me is how people think EU has anything to do with democracy...
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On July 07 2015 17:22 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 16:21 maartendq wrote:On July 07 2015 06:50 Gorsameth wrote:On July 07 2015 05:37 c0ldfusion wrote:
Dijsselbloem maintains that there are structural problems with Greece. I think we can largely agree with that statement.
He's not going to budge.
How is Tsipras going to get something done tomorrow? Or even make progress... Here is my vision. The Eurogroup cannot and will not budge, the reasons have been stated often enough. The Greek vote changes nothing here. The democratic choice of 1 country will not change the political reality in Europe. Tsipras cannot accept the Eurogroups offer, it would be political suicide after the No, nor can he offer a good enough deal to the Eurozone without again going against the referendum. The negotiations will enter a gridlock right away and be stuck until something in Greece fails and forces the issue. Most likely is the banks simply running out of money and forcing Drachma's to be printed to save the common people, otherwise this will last till the 20th and a default to the ECB will force the issue. By the looks of it the ECB is already trying to force the issue: there will be no extra money for Greek banks. Edit: what baffles me is how many people seem to think that Tsipras' referendum has anything to do with, or even redefines democracy. What baffle me is how people think EU has anything to do with democracy...
Well, the member states elect the European Parliament, and the European Parliament elects the European Commission. The Eurogroup is a gathering of all EMU finance ministers (who all are democratically elected) and the ECB is an independent instutution (as far as I know not a single country elects central bank members).
It's plenty democratic, but for some reason rather few people choose to show up for European parliamentary elections, even though the EU influences their lives in more ways than most people realise. Of course, being in a Union, this means that European law supercedes national law in certain fields, e.g. fiscal deficits, otherwise a Union would be pretty much pointless.
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Yes, so democratic that each time a referendum in a country says "no" to EU it is ignored/redone, depending on circumstances. Illusion of democracy is not democracy. Sure, we can vote for people that more or less all think the same (well, u can still vote for extreme right, but definetly not my cup of tea).
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On July 07 2015 17:48 Furikawari wrote:
Yes, so democratic that each time a referendum in a country says "no" to EU it is ignored/redone, depending on circumstances. Illusion of democracy is not democracy. Sure, we can vote for people that more or less all think the same (well, u can still vote for extreme right, but definetly not my cup of tea).
There is no reason for the whole Union to be held back by the vote of one of its members. The same applies to Greece, actually: their democratic mandate does not trump that of the other 18 EMU members.
Also, some things are just too complicated to be left to popular vote (people tend vote with their guts, and/or for the choice that suits their short-term interests the best). Many financial and political reforms since the second world war would have never made it past a referendum, even if they turned out for the better.
Believe it or not, but there is such a thing as "too much democracy". If the populace has no trust in their representatives' decision and policy making and only wants to control them (cf. the falacy of wanting governments to be as transparant as possible), democracy cannot fuction.
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Well if you want democracy you can take whatever proposal Greece makes, cut it up into economic bits corresponding to what EU countries would pay and have national elections on if they should give Greece more money...
There's a lot of people shitting on EU for being "undemocratic" which might be correct but it's funny because it's the side who think EU politicians have wronged Greece in some way while the electorate in all other countries would almost certainly vote "no" if asked about further financial support.
But that is why we elect politicians, because they are supposed to be able to represent our interests better than we do.
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Also, some things are just too complicated to be left to popular vote
wow. And he claims it's democracy. Nuff said.
Ur point of view summarizes exactly what EU is: a construction made by elitists, for elitist (well, banksters), and they ask people opinions only when they are more or less sure of the result (and media propaganda is always VERY strong in these moments; see Greece last week, France during consitution referendum, and I can bet my balls it is the same in all other countries where results may not be as expected). If failure: ignore.
Dont get me wrong: I dont think democrarcy is good. But if u say u are for democracy, at least, really be, dont fake it. EU is a techniocratic construct only motivated by financial aspects (hence the problem with Greece - they cant let it go or the whole purpose is lost).
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On July 07 2015 18:05 Furikawari wrote:wow. And he claims it's democracy. Nuff said. Ur point of view summarizes exactly what EU is a construction made by elitists, for elitist (well, banksters), and they ask people opinions only when they are more or less sure of the result. If failure: ignore. Dont get me wrong: I dont think democrarcy is good. But if u say u are for democracy, at least, really be, dont fake it. EU is a techniocratic construct only motivated by financial aspects (hence the problem with Greece - they cant let it go or the whole purpose is lost).
It's completely true though. Votes are supposed to be on the direction the country should take, not specific questions. That's why we have a representative democracy because it works better when we tell people what we want and they do it as best as possible.
Sometimes politicians does things that no one agrees with because they don't see any other options. That's being realistic, not undemocratic. I make decisions on my household economy every day, difference is that I'm doing it for 1 person. When a politician does it some get the better deal and some get a worse deal, it's not undemocratic at all.
And the EU is even more difficult because it's not a democracy, it's a bunch of countries trying to cooperate. You can't have national elections mucking things up to much because then your saying your country is more important than any other.
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On July 07 2015 18:05 Furikawari wrote:wow. And he claims it's democracy. Nuff said. Ur point of view summarizes exactly what EU is a construction made by elitists, for elitist (well, banksters), and they ask people opinions only when they are more or less sure of the result. If failure: ignore. Dont get me wrong: I dont think democrarcy is good. But if u say u are for democracy, at least, really be, dont fake it. EU is a techniocratic construct only motivated by financial aspects (hence the problem with Greece - they cant let it go or the whole purpose is lost).
I am for democracy. However, I do realise that I lack both the time and knowledge to be able to make an informed vote about a great number of issues, issues the representatives in parliament will know a lot more about because they have the luxury of either having people who can do research for them, or of having the time to do research and come to conclusions themselves. Hence I trust that the politicians I voted for will represent my interest, and that of society as a whole.
It is not a politician's job to constantly ask the opinion of the people whenever he has to make a decision. This would mean that:
a) he is incompetent
or
b) he doesn't want to be held accountable
or
c) both.
Politicians need to make and vote on decisions, and he will be held accountable by civil society during his tenure and at the next elections.
Tsipras' referendum was nothing more than a ploy to shove responsibility for whatever happens in the next few weeks as far away from himself and Syriza as possible. After all, the people (or about 60% of them at least) made the decision themselves. The irony is that regardless of what the ballot said, Greeks essentially voted for either more austerity, or more austerity. If you ask me, the referendum was nothing but an insult to democracy.
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On July 07 2015 06:50 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 05:37 c0ldfusion wrote:
Dijsselbloem maintains that there are structural problems with Greece. I think we can largely agree with that statement.
He's not going to budge.
How is Tsipras going to get something done tomorrow? Or even make progress... Here is my vision. The Eurogroup cannot and will not budge, the reasons have been stated often enough. The Greek vote changes nothing here. The democratic choice of 1 country will not change the political reality in Europe. Tsipras cannot accept the Eurogroups offer, it would be political suicide after the No, nor can he offer a good enough deal to the Eurozone without again going against the referendum. The negotiations will enter a gridlock right away and be stuck until something in Greece fails and forces the issue. Most likely is the banks simply running out of money and forcing Drachma's to be printed to save the common people, otherwise this will last till the 20th and a default to the ECB will force the issue.
The eurogroup will budge,the stakes are to high and financial forces that drive the eu are to powerfull.
I give it another 2 weeks tops and then there will be a solution for Greece.
No matter what will happen, I think tsipras is done for and wont be reelected again in Greece.
Another,less likely and less attractive option is:
There will be chaos in Greece and the military will take control of the country,a temporary military dictatorship will then make a deal with the eu and new elections will follow.
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I am from Singapore. I don't care if my country is a little less democratic (ie. not pure democracy)/restricted in freedom etc if it is for a better economy. I like pragmatism over ideals.
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On July 07 2015 18:30 Rassy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 06:50 Gorsameth wrote:On July 07 2015 05:37 c0ldfusion wrote:
Dijsselbloem maintains that there are structural problems with Greece. I think we can largely agree with that statement.
He's not going to budge.
How is Tsipras going to get something done tomorrow? Or even make progress... Here is my vision. The Eurogroup cannot and will not budge, the reasons have been stated often enough. The Greek vote changes nothing here. The democratic choice of 1 country will not change the political reality in Europe. Tsipras cannot accept the Eurogroups offer, it would be political suicide after the No, nor can he offer a good enough deal to the Eurozone without again going against the referendum. The negotiations will enter a gridlock right away and be stuck until something in Greece fails and forces the issue. Most likely is the banks simply running out of money and forcing Drachma's to be printed to save the common people, otherwise this will last till the 20th and a default to the ECB will force the issue. The eurogroup will budge,the stakes are to high and financial forces that drive the eu are to powerfull. I give it another 2 weeks tops and then there will be a solution for Greece. No matter what will happen, I think tsipras is done for and wont be reelected again in Greece. Another,less likely and less attractive option is: There will be chaos in Greece and the military will take control of the country,a temporary military dictatorship will then make a deal with the eu and new elections will follow.
Ur last option cannot be accepted by EU given the result last weekend and the impact it would have on other countries people (even more fuckoff democracy than everything that has been done until now - far too risky politically speaking).
What is funny is ur last option summarize what neoliberalism is all about: strong government to control misbehaviouring people. Misbehaviouring in their conception, not the common sense.
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On July 07 2015 18:34 DucK- wrote:
I am from Singapore. I don't care if my country is a little less democratic (ie. not pure democracy)/restricted in freedom etc if it is for a better economy. I like pragmatism over ideals.
Some people around here think that life is not all about economy.
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after a default, can greeks adopt another country currency(with its permission + signed deals/contracts ofc)?.
any random currency worth 20% - 30% of 1$ or something.
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On July 07 2015 18:34 DucK- wrote:
I am from Singapore. I don't care if my country is a little less democratic (ie. not pure democracy)/restricted in freedom etc if it is for a better economy. I like pragmatism over ideals.
Yet for all its economic growth, Singapore scores terribly on the "Happy Planet Index" for a developed country. There must be quite a lot people who want a life that is about more than work and wealth.
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On July 07 2015 18:38 xM(Z wrote:
after a default, can greeks adopt another country currency(with its permission + signed deals/contracts ofc)?.
any random currency worth 20% - 30% of 1$ or something.
The point of leaving the euro would be for Greece to have control over its own monetary policy. Adopting a different currency would be pretty pointless.
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No because how will they get dollars? It's not like the US will magically give them cash, they can't print it themselves. So what will they trade for it? Picking up another countries currency will just make the situation far worse.
It's what you do when you have rampant inflation, not what you do when you want to devalue a currency.
Edit: Also you can't have a negative trade balance when using another countries currency because then you simply run out of cash. It has to be somewhat level.
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On July 07 2015 18:47 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:No because how will they get dollars? It's not like the US will magically give them cash, they can't print it themselves. So what will they trade for it? Picking up another countries currency will just make the situation far worse. It's what you do when you have rampant inflation, not what you do when you want to devalue a currency. Edit: Also you can't have a negative trade balance when using another countries currency because then you simply run out of cash. It has to be somewhat level.
I'm probably wrong about this, but isn't currency devaluation relatively pointless in countries whose economies service mainly the domestic market?
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On July 07 2015 18:35 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 18:34 DucK- wrote:
I am from Singapore. I don't care if my country is a little less democratic (ie. not pure democracy)/restricted in freedom etc if it is for a better economy. I like pragmatism over ideals. Some people around here think that life is not all about economy.
Then the myths are the various indices that show us as being unhappy, probably skewed by those that take our wealth, efficiency, low taxes, stability and safety for granted.
Plus its not like the slight restriction in freedom/democracy is the cause of these 'unhapiness'. They stem mainly from the income disparity, something every country faces some way or another.
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greeks do the math and end up with a theoretical exchange value for their would be new currency; check currencies at or around that value; sign deals, import currency, own up to their math.
they could also find a country with surplus that would benefit from some currency devaluation.
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EPT
