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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
Norway28896 Posts
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now.
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On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now.
Similar to the swiss far right, I'm not a fan obviously (lol you had the same phrasing and I hadn't read it yet, I'll leave it here) but there's no comparison to Le Pen or Trump.
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On February 28 2025 05:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now. Similar to the swiss far right, I'm not a fan obviously (lol you had the same phrasing and I hadn't read it yet, I'll leave it here) but there's no comparison to Le Pen or Trump.
How about Reagan or Bush?
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On February 28 2025 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2025 05:06 Nebuchad wrote:On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now. Similar to the swiss far right, I'm not a fan obviously (lol you had the same phrasing and I hadn't read it yet, I'll leave it here) but there's no comparison to Le Pen or Trump. How about Reagan or Bush?
Eh, probably closer, don't know. They're never running on breaking the swiss system and they've been part of the government a lot so it's hard to give them Reagan.
The main characteristic I have in my head for Bush is 'being dumb', so, well yeah, they're dumb
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On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now.
It's almost as if taking the issue seriously and giving the voters what they want takes the oxygen out of the debate and quenches the issue.
And probably they are completely comparable to their danish, finnish and swedish counterparts.
And in Sweden SD were commonly called nazis up until the last election when they were suddenly a normal party.
If your "far right" party is polling ~20-25 based on anti-immigration policies then >>>50 % of the entire voter base want anti-immigration.
It doesn't mean that >50% will vote for said party (they are polling 20-25 after all) but it does mean it's a major issue. But it's also important to a varying level of degree for those voters.
When the other parties absorb the issue voters will be satisfied to various degrees. This means they are more likely to consider other issues more important and are thus more likely to vote for a party that is "OK" for immigration but aligns more on those issues.
The "far right" party can go even further right but that will make them to extreme for a lot of voters who will jump ship, causing them to shrink. Or they can stay where they are on immigration (with a narrow gap to other parties) and expand their politics into other issues. Thus becoming a more regular party.
The ancient chinese considered most other people to be barbarians. But they divided them up into two different kinds. The steppe nomads that had just recently moved close to china were usually very different and violent. Those were considered "uncooked" and usually interactions amounted to war.
However the nomads that had lived close to the Chinese borders for a few generations had time to trade, absorb some culture and a taste for luxury goods. Those barbarians were "cooked" and you could trade with them and make reasonable deals.
Your "far right party" has obviously been properly "cooked".
As for Sweden I'm fairly sure SD is on the stove at the moment and if other parties (social democrats mainly) just turn up the heat a little more with their migration policies I think the meal will be ready for next election.
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Northern Ireland27405 Posts
Cheers for the responses y’all, given me something to ponder before my next interjection!
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On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now.
The difference i see between the Progress Party and the RN in France is that the RN is actually a very weird coalition of extremely divergent groups of people, and much less coherent than the FrP. It’s so hard to make sense of the RN, and it’s impossible to know what Le Pen stands for. Most probably nothing at all, except herself. I have seen the RN described as a family business, and i think it’s quite adequate. They were uber pro-free market, Reagan like in the 90’s, to the point Le Pen claimed to be the French Reagan, and now their economic program is full on left wing populist. They were super anti-semitic, now they are hardcore pro israel. Etc etc. Within themselves, they go from traditionalist catholics to skinheads to working class disfranchised people, to rural folks that believe the cities are besieged by bloodthirsty Arabs because that’s what they see on tv and have never left their village.
The naive way that i look at it and that makes most sense to me is that they are the part of mean ideas. It’s honestly the only thing coherent about them.
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I have a question for the class:
Monsanto is owned by german Bayer. They basicly own a huge market share for high yield agricultural seeds and with Glyphosate® the nuclear bomb of pesticide/herbicides.
Biggest competitor is Corteva in the US, but it could probably be aquired for less than 20 billion.
Europe is heavily depended on US "Interlectual Property" since non of the US Tech companies shares their sources.
Could germany use Bayer and it's partly ownership on the US food supply for leverage in Trump's stupid tariff war?
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On March 05 2025 21:15 KT_Elwood wrote:
I have a question for the class:
Monsanto is owned by german Bayer. They basicly own a huge market share for high yield agricultural seeds and with Glyphosate® the nuclear bomb of pesticide/herbicides.
Biggest competitor is Corteva in the US, but it could probably be aquired for less than 20 billion.
Europe is heavily depended on US "Interlectual Property" since non of the US Tech companies shares their sources.
Could germany use Bayer and it's partly ownership on the US food supply for leverage in Trump's stupid tariff war?
If Europe had the goal to escalate the trade war about a million, this is the sort of thing to think of. How effective this particular move would be? Dunno. I'd guess pretty ineffective because the IP is kinda irrelevant at the point where you are full on shutting down economies with the sole aim to hurt the other. It isn't as if the US lacks the capability for making glyphosate or glyphosate resistant seed if international trade is nuked.
But more to the point is that Europe has absolutely no interest in escalating a trade war. At most they'll slap some tariffs on US products and then diplomats will continuously point out how all the tariffs are making both blocks' economy worse. And that'll be that, unless shit gets made actively a lot worse by Trump, and the EU is forced to respond in kind again.
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Yeah my totally wild thinking was, that if interlectual property isn't respected anymore...You can basicly wipe out the basis to a lot of US based tech and media companies.
Earningswise it would be 7 out of the USTop10
Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet, Meta, Johnson&Johnson, Amazon (sans the boots on the ground retail ), Nvidia.
Might be hard to reverse engineer Software.. but simply selling the latest jailbroken copies without paying licences should do.
Alphabet and Meta get booted from the EU.
ASML/Zeiss probably got the chip dudes by the balls as they produce the masks and the machines for their silicone (Apple, Nvidia).
Simply allowing to distribute bootleg media of US Movies, Music and Games without legal action... and producing pharmaceuticals without licence payments would also hit the earnings of the industry hard.
I mean as long as I got nuclear deterrence, I was kinda okay with paying for Disney+ and Disney Corp. only paying 50€/1 Million Euros in profits in the EU... but without it.. Meh.
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On March 03 2025 06:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now. The difference i see between the Progress Party and the RN in France is that the RN is actually a very weird coalition of extremely divergent groups of people, and much less coherent than the FrP. It’s so hard to make sense of the RN, and it’s impossible to know what Le Pen stands for. Most probably nothing at all, except herself. I have seen the RN described as a family business, and i think it’s quite adequate. They were uber pro-free market, Reagan like in the 90’s, to the point Le Pen claimed to be the French Reagan, and now their economic program is full on left wing populist. They were super anti-semitic, now they are hardcore pro israel. Etc etc. Within themselves, they go from traditionalist catholics to skinheads to working class disfranchised people, to rural folks that believe the cities are besieged by bloodthirsty Arabs because that’s what they see on tv and have never left their village. The naive way that i look at it and that makes most sense to me is that they are the part of mean ideas. It’s honestly the only thing coherent about them.
Like all the far right parties the RN has changed quite a bit in the last 15 years. I dont see much of a difference when I compare the RN with the Sweden democrats. Maybe the RN is slightly less hawkish on Ukraine but thats more or less all. But I think these parties trend to be portrayed as more extreme in other countries than their own. Whenever there is an artikel about SD in le monde for example they trend to be portrayed as more extreme than in the swedish press, and vice versa.
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Northern Ireland27405 Posts
On March 08 2025 00:40 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2025 06:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now. The difference i see between the Progress Party and the RN in France is that the RN is actually a very weird coalition of extremely divergent groups of people, and much less coherent than the FrP. It’s so hard to make sense of the RN, and it’s impossible to know what Le Pen stands for. Most probably nothing at all, except herself. I have seen the RN described as a family business, and i think it’s quite adequate. They were uber pro-free market, Reagan like in the 90’s, to the point Le Pen claimed to be the French Reagan, and now their economic program is full on left wing populist. They were super anti-semitic, now they are hardcore pro israel. Etc etc. Within themselves, they go from traditionalist catholics to skinheads to working class disfranchised people, to rural folks that believe the cities are besieged by bloodthirsty Arabs because that’s what they see on tv and have never left their village. The naive way that i look at it and that makes most sense to me is that they are the part of mean ideas. It’s honestly the only thing coherent about them. Like all the far right parties the RN has changed quite a bit in the last 15 years. I dont see much of a difference when I compare the RN with the Sweden democrats. Maybe the RN is slightly less hawkish on Ukraine but thats more or less all. But I think these parties trend to be portrayed as more extreme in other countries than their own. Whenever there is an artikel about SD in le monde for example they trend to be portrayed as more extreme than in the swedish press, and vice versa.
‘Republicans buy sneakers too’ as Michael Jordan once said.
I would imagine domestic media by and large will be less critical of domestic parties simply by virtue of having readership who may support said parties. So perhaps the outside view is more accurate.
I think the RN has changed somewhat, but I’m not sure how much they’ve really changed. If I was to define them versus previous incarnations, a lot of the core isn’t that different, but the ‘we’re not far-right’ PR is a lot better.
Which, leading back to Biff’s point, gives them a platform and support base that is borderline incoherent at times. Not unlike MAGA in America, there’s a very clear and obvious far-right core there, but it does attract people who aren’t
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On March 08 2025 00:40 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2025 06:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now. The difference i see between the Progress Party and the RN in France is that the RN is actually a very weird coalition of extremely divergent groups of people, and much less coherent than the FrP. It’s so hard to make sense of the RN, and it’s impossible to know what Le Pen stands for. Most probably nothing at all, except herself. I have seen the RN described as a family business, and i think it’s quite adequate. They were uber pro-free market, Reagan like in the 90’s, to the point Le Pen claimed to be the French Reagan, and now their economic program is full on left wing populist. They were super anti-semitic, now they are hardcore pro israel. Etc etc. Within themselves, they go from traditionalist catholics to skinheads to working class disfranchised people, to rural folks that believe the cities are besieged by bloodthirsty Arabs because that’s what they see on tv and have never left their village. The naive way that i look at it and that makes most sense to me is that they are the part of mean ideas. It’s honestly the only thing coherent about them. Like all the far right parties the RN has changed quite a bit in the last 15 years. I dont see much of a difference when I compare the RN with the Sweden democrats. Maybe the RN is slightly less hawkish on Ukraine but thats more or less all. But I think these parties trend to be portrayed as more extreme in other countries than their own. Whenever there is an artikel about SD in le monde for example they trend to be portrayed as more extreme than in the swedish press, and vice versa.
Who is/are the main billionnaire(s) behind SD and what are his/their views?
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There are none. I think all the billionaires in Sweden are backing the regular conservative/neo-liberal party.
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On March 08 2025 02:58 Elroi wrote:
There are none. I think all the billionaires in Sweden are backing the regular conservative/neo-liberal party.
So that's one main difference I would say. It's more likely that the SD would act in accordance with what they're saying.
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On March 08 2025 00:40 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2025 06:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:On February 28 2025 05:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Also at least for Norway, our progress party is honestly a lot less insane than say, current iteration of republicans or AfD or FN. Like, their leader said about the 2016 election in the US that she would've held her nose and voted for Hillary Clinton, which basically makes her a democrat.
I joke a bit - they're definitely to the right of the democrats - but they're a party existing in the same universe I do. They have their fringe elements (those people can't really go anywhere else, as the truly insane right wing parties get less than 1% of the total vote). And there's the occasional ugly statement from some politicians that are part of the party. But there's certainly nothing nazi about them.
now - part of the way the other parties dealt with their earlier rise, was acknowledge that they had some points regarding immigration. Essentially, the other big parties all toughened up their stance on immigration - without adopting the harsh rhetoric - and consequently, it's not an issue that dominates our political landscape. That said, the progress party currently looks poised to have their best election ever in 2025, polling around 25%, but again, honestly, they're not comparable to other far right parties we see in other countries. I'm obviously not a fan, but I'm not like, terrified of the prospect of potentially seeing them part of a coalition government 8 months from now. The difference i see between the Progress Party and the RN in France is that the RN is actually a very weird coalition of extremely divergent groups of people, and much less coherent than the FrP. It’s so hard to make sense of the RN, and it’s impossible to know what Le Pen stands for. Most probably nothing at all, except herself. I have seen the RN described as a family business, and i think it’s quite adequate. They were uber pro-free market, Reagan like in the 90’s, to the point Le Pen claimed to be the French Reagan, and now their economic program is full on left wing populist. They were super anti-semitic, now they are hardcore pro israel. Etc etc. Within themselves, they go from traditionalist catholics to skinheads to working class disfranchised people, to rural folks that believe the cities are besieged by bloodthirsty Arabs because that’s what they see on tv and have never left their village. The naive way that i look at it and that makes most sense to me is that they are the part of mean ideas. It’s honestly the only thing coherent about them. Like all the far right parties the RN has changed quite a bit in the last 15 years. I dont see much of a difference when I compare the RN with the Sweden democrats. Maybe the RN is slightly less hawkish on Ukraine but thats more or less all. But I think these parties trend to be portrayed as more extreme in other countries than their own. Whenever there is an artikel about SD in le monde for example they trend to be portrayed as more extreme than in the swedish press, and vice versa.
Living in Germany, I have no clue exactly how extreme for example the French or the Italian far right parties are. I only know that they are universally labeled as extremely far right and usually as fascists as well. However, living in Germany, I am almost certain that there is no way, the German far right party "AFD" is portrayed as accurately extreme in other countries. This party was far right when it was founded. Then they purged their ranks from their moderates. We are talking about a party here, where one of the leaders wrote literally "Mein Kampf" 2.0. A party where plently of members used to walk in Neo-nazi parades (skinheads, with jump boots and the entire neo-nazi attire). A party where a uncomfortable amount of fairly high-ranking members glorified the holocaust on tape (or have suggested that it is time for a new holocaust). And so much more!
Thus, knowing that the "AFD" is not sufficiently portrayed as extreme, I am just going to assume that I really would not like to have any other European parties labeled as far right in a position of power.
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On a (much) less serious issue.
Europe, you are in for a treat in this years Eurovision. If we make it to the finals. Lmao.
Finland, this one is for you!
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Pretty good ngl  It's not Rim Tim Tagi Dim but hey
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On March 09 2025 06:17 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On a (much) less serious issue.
Europe, you are in for a treat in this years Eurovision. If we make it to the finals. Lmao.
Finland, this one is for you!
I don't know what the Finnish equivalent of a Manchurian candidate would be, but I'm pretty sure we managed to get one in. It is not the USA presidency but a nearly as important position.
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EPT
