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It's actually not hard at all to make people care for eachother. It's the basis of human history. The only way to make your civilisation bigger is to expand the group people feel they belong to. And above small village (200-300 people) you have to do it artificially because we don't have more capacity for connections than that.
It goes from family, tribe, village, town, city, clan, religion, currency, nationstate, CULTURE etc.
Continent and humanity are to high up for most.
People like to belong and are hardwired to not care as much for other groups.
We built civilisation around constantly building larger social constructs that we can belong to.
Untill about 50 years ago when we reversed course, stopped the indoctrination into proven concepts and started new ones.
People don't like it, and the reaction is to vote against it.
But keep seeing them as poor plebs that don't understand any better, I'm sure it will go well (hint; it won't).
Realise that democracy means the will of the people and either give them what they want or come up with something better.
One thing Trump has nailed down is that it's the feeling that matters.
For example if the EU was reframed as nation states cooperating with each other in a fair way nothing would have to change and people would be happiet.
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On February 27 2025 03:32 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2025 00:20 Broetchenholer wrote:
I feel you. Despite living in of the cheapest flat in my high income city and being firmly in the top 10% of income per household with my wife, we have just enough saved up that i am not too concerned with my wife currently not working due to our offspring spawning 2 months ago. Next step will probably be to find another home as the 3 room appartment wil get very small as soon as the offspring is starting to get mobile, if that happens i am royally fucked cause my fix costs, if i find something new, will go up by 1000€ per month.
I have no clue how the families with half or less of what i am making survive in my city. I am living a good life, don't get me wrong, but considering i am supposed to be upper middle class by sheer luck of being born to intelligent parents and finding a lucrative job i don't really deserve, i am wildly perplexed how parties like CDU and FDP still have people voting for them if their message is "just work harder".
The difference between the middle class now and 2 generation ago is staggering. If the people below that amount of wealth are unhappy with the status quo i get that completely.
My dad, born in 1939 retired at 52 in a factory job not requiring an education and he has 3000€/month with the pension and extra payments because he received a settlement for having been exposed to chemicals, that destroyed his health. That's the money that allows us to keep the house. I couldn't afford it otherwise, doesn't feel good. No one is ever going to attack the pensioneers because they are the most important voting block but they really don't understand how good they had it. Somehow they didn't get robbed as a hard as we are getting atm.
I think the single most important factor of reducing living costs in Germany is Energy. Electricity and heating are just too damn expensive. Not only would it directly become cheaper but produced stuff (food, other goods) would also be cheaper.
I can somewhat understand why Germany steered away from nuclear energy back in the day. I cannot understand why we didn't reinvest in more modern and saver nuclear energy like ones Bill Gates does or the likes. Fusion is too far off and we need something to fill the holes that solar and wind energy will always have.
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On February 27 2025 16:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It's actually not hard at all to make people care for eachother. It's the basis of human history. The only way to make your civilisation bigger is to expand the group people feel they belong to. And above small village (200-300 people) you have to do it artificially because we don't have more capacity for connections than that.
It goes from family, tribe, village, town, city, clan, religion, currency, nationstate, CULTURE etc.
Continent and humanity are to high up for most.
People like to belong and are hardwired to not care as much for other groups.
We built civilisation around constantly building larger social constructs that we can belong to.
Untill about 50 years ago when we reversed course, stopped the indoctrination into proven concepts and started new ones.
People don't like it, and the reaction is to vote against it.
But keep seeing them as poor plebs that don't understand any better, I'm sure it will go well (hint; it won't).
Realise that democracy means the will of the people and either give them what they want or come up with something better.
One thing Trump has nailed down is that it's the feeling that matters.
For example if the EU was reframed as nation states cooperating with each other in a fair way nothing would have to change and people would be happiet.
That is not true. The EU is aways a scapegoat and almost never the cause for trouble. The people don't know what they want, me included. We yell for solutions that sound fancy in our brain, either because we thought we were smort ourselves or because telegram told us and then someone more clever tells us why this is a stupid idea. You have to solve the issues that spark someone to yell what they want. For me, more effort to combat climate change and a strngthening of the bottom 90% in society. For my brother-in-law, better infrstructure and job opportunity in his town in the middle of nowhere i north east germany. That man was furious whenever he heard or saw about last generation blocking streets, but when his wife cam home 3 hours late because of the farmers protest against the same government but with support from his party AfD, he was exstatic that she was part of the protest movement. Despite AfD being the least farmer friendly party in the country.
People want unreasonable things. People want hateful things. You cannot give in to stupidity. If The party he elected would get into office and leave the EU, our society would leóse an unimaginable amount of wealth which is directly opposed to what he really wants.
I agree, we need to invest resources, ideally after we take them from people with too many resources and invest them into areas that hurt the most in our society. But just doing what the public "wants" in a time where opinion is formed by fake news and hyper partisan bubbles is just suicide on Brexit level.
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On February 27 2025 17:51 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2025 03:32 r00ty wrote:On February 27 2025 00:20 Broetchenholer wrote:
I feel you. Despite living in of the cheapest flat in my high income city and being firmly in the top 10% of income per household with my wife, we have just enough saved up that i am not too concerned with my wife currently not working due to our offspring spawning 2 months ago. Next step will probably be to find another home as the 3 room appartment wil get very small as soon as the offspring is starting to get mobile, if that happens i am royally fucked cause my fix costs, if i find something new, will go up by 1000€ per month.
I have no clue how the families with half or less of what i am making survive in my city. I am living a good life, don't get me wrong, but considering i am supposed to be upper middle class by sheer luck of being born to intelligent parents and finding a lucrative job i don't really deserve, i am wildly perplexed how parties like CDU and FDP still have people voting for them if their message is "just work harder".
The difference between the middle class now and 2 generation ago is staggering. If the people below that amount of wealth are unhappy with the status quo i get that completely.
My dad, born in 1939 retired at 52 in a factory job not requiring an education and he has 3000€/month with the pension and extra payments because he received a settlement for having been exposed to chemicals, that destroyed his health. That's the money that allows us to keep the house. I couldn't afford it otherwise, doesn't feel good. No one is ever going to attack the pensioneers because they are the most important voting block but they really don't understand how good they had it. Somehow they didn't get robbed as a hard as we are getting atm. I think the single most important factor of reducing living costs in Germany is Energy. Electricity and heating are just too damn expensive. Not only would it directly become cheaper but produced stuff (food, other goods) would also be cheaper. I can somewhat understand why Germany steered away from nuclear energy back in the day. I cannot understand why we didn't reinvest in more modern and saver nuclear energy like ones Bill Gates does or the likes. Fusion is too far off and we need something to fill the holes that solar and wind energy will always have.
I agree. Nuclear power is the best transition source, till we have something better and also would be the best source to cover downtimes of renewables. We're basically using coal to power electric vehicles atm. One earthquake in Japan and we threw the safest nuclear power plants in the world away. For what? If the ones of other countries bordering us would have an incident, what does it matter?
But that ship has sailed. You just don't reactivate a nuclear power plant with a political decision, first of all not in Germany. Building new ones would take 20 years optimistically. That's 5 election cycles.
Edit: What we got for being able to quit nuclear power was a reliance on Russian natural gas. And you know how that went.
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On February 27 2025 18:18 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2025 16:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It's actually not hard at all to make people care for eachother. It's the basis of human history. The only way to make your civilisation bigger is to expand the group people feel they belong to. And above small village (200-300 people) you have to do it artificially because we don't have more capacity for connections than that.
It goes from family, tribe, village, town, city, clan, religion, currency, nationstate, CULTURE etc.
Continent and humanity are to high up for most.
People like to belong and are hardwired to not care as much for other groups.
We built civilisation around constantly building larger social constructs that we can belong to.
Untill about 50 years ago when we reversed course, stopped the indoctrination into proven concepts and started new ones.
People don't like it, and the reaction is to vote against it.
But keep seeing them as poor plebs that don't understand any better, I'm sure it will go well (hint; it won't).
Realise that democracy means the will of the people and either give them what they want or come up with something better.
One thing Trump has nailed down is that it's the feeling that matters.
For example if the EU was reframed as nation states cooperating with each other in a fair way nothing would have to change and people would be happiet. That is not true. The EU is aways a scapegoat and almost never the cause for trouble. The people don't know what they want, me included. We yell for solutions that sound fancy in our brain, either because we thought we were smort ourselves or because telegram told us and then someone more clever tells us why this is a stupid idea. You have to solve the issues that spark someone to yell what they want. For me, more effort to combat climate change and a strngthening of the bottom 90% in society. For my brother-in-law, better infrstructure and job opportunity in his town in the middle of nowhere i north east germany. That man was furious whenever he heard or saw about last generation blocking streets, but when his wife cam home 3 hours late because of the farmers protest against the same government but with support from his party AfD, he was exstatic that she was part of the protest movement. Despite AfD being the least farmer friendly party in the country. People want unreasonable things. People want hateful things. You cannot give in to stupidity. If The party he elected would get into office and leave the EU, our society would leóse an unimaginable amount of wealth which is directly opposed to what he really wants. I agree, we need to invest resources, ideally after we take them from people with too many resources and invest them into areas that hurt the most in our society. But just doing what the public "wants" in a time where opinion is formed by fake news and hyper partisan bubbles is just suicide on Brexit level.
LOL, if you say so. Every single nordic country is ahead of Germany on the far right party curve.
In all cases refusing to deal with them or their issues and talking about how their stupid supporters are and how they only want X because of Y has lead to one thing.
They double up the next election.
However working with them and/or taking on some of their core issues. Then suddenly something magical happens. They stop growing, sometimes they even deflate.
Germany can choose to deal with some of AfDs issues now or keep calling them idiots and then deal with them when they are the largest party next election.
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On February 27 2025 22:11 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2025 18:18 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 27 2025 16:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It's actually not hard at all to make people care for eachother. It's the basis of human history. The only way to make your civilisation bigger is to expand the group people feel they belong to. And above small village (200-300 people) you have to do it artificially because we don't have more capacity for connections than that.
It goes from family, tribe, village, town, city, clan, religion, currency, nationstate, CULTURE etc.
Continent and humanity are to high up for most.
People like to belong and are hardwired to not care as much for other groups.
We built civilisation around constantly building larger social constructs that we can belong to.
Untill about 50 years ago when we reversed course, stopped the indoctrination into proven concepts and started new ones.
People don't like it, and the reaction is to vote against it.
But keep seeing them as poor plebs that don't understand any better, I'm sure it will go well (hint; it won't).
Realise that democracy means the will of the people and either give them what they want or come up with something better.
One thing Trump has nailed down is that it's the feeling that matters.
For example if the EU was reframed as nation states cooperating with each other in a fair way nothing would have to change and people would be happiet. That is not true. The EU is aways a scapegoat and almost never the cause for trouble. The people don't know what they want, me included. We yell for solutions that sound fancy in our brain, either because we thought we were smort ourselves or because telegram told us and then someone more clever tells us why this is a stupid idea. You have to solve the issues that spark someone to yell what they want. For me, more effort to combat climate change and a strngthening of the bottom 90% in society. For my brother-in-law, better infrstructure and job opportunity in his town in the middle of nowhere i north east germany. That man was furious whenever he heard or saw about last generation blocking streets, but when his wife cam home 3 hours late because of the farmers protest against the same government but with support from his party AfD, he was exstatic that she was part of the protest movement. Despite AfD being the least farmer friendly party in the country. People want unreasonable things. People want hateful things. You cannot give in to stupidity. If The party he elected would get into office and leave the EU, our society would leóse an unimaginable amount of wealth which is directly opposed to what he really wants. I agree, we need to invest resources, ideally after we take them from people with too many resources and invest them into areas that hurt the most in our society. But just doing what the public "wants" in a time where opinion is formed by fake news and hyper partisan bubbles is just suicide on Brexit level. In all cases refusing to deal with them or their issues and talking about how their stupid supporters are and how they only want X because of Y has lead to one thing. They double up the next election.
Doubt you could prove they double because of that. People tend to have different reasons for what they're doing, and none of those reasons are usually what you're referencing. Otherwise the left would be killing it right now.
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On February 27 2025 22:11 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2025 18:18 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 27 2025 16:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It's actually not hard at all to make people care for eachother. It's the basis of human history. The only way to make your civilisation bigger is to expand the group people feel they belong to. And above small village (200-300 people) you have to do it artificially because we don't have more capacity for connections than that.
It goes from family, tribe, village, town, city, clan, religion, currency, nationstate, CULTURE etc.
Continent and humanity are to high up for most.
People like to belong and are hardwired to not care as much for other groups.
We built civilisation around constantly building larger social constructs that we can belong to.
Untill about 50 years ago when we reversed course, stopped the indoctrination into proven concepts and started new ones.
People don't like it, and the reaction is to vote against it.
But keep seeing them as poor plebs that don't understand any better, I'm sure it will go well (hint; it won't).
Realise that democracy means the will of the people and either give them what they want or come up with something better.
One thing Trump has nailed down is that it's the feeling that matters.
For example if the EU was reframed as nation states cooperating with each other in a fair way nothing would have to change and people would be happiet. That is not true. The EU is aways a scapegoat and almost never the cause for trouble. The people don't know what they want, me included. We yell for solutions that sound fancy in our brain, either because we thought we were smort ourselves or because telegram told us and then someone more clever tells us why this is a stupid idea. You have to solve the issues that spark someone to yell what they want. For me, more effort to combat climate change and a strngthening of the bottom 90% in society. For my brother-in-law, better infrstructure and job opportunity in his town in the middle of nowhere i north east germany. That man was furious whenever he heard or saw about last generation blocking streets, but when his wife cam home 3 hours late because of the farmers protest against the same government but with support from his party AfD, he was exstatic that she was part of the protest movement. Despite AfD being the least farmer friendly party in the country. People want unreasonable things. People want hateful things. You cannot give in to stupidity. If The party he elected would get into office and leave the EU, our society would leóse an unimaginable amount of wealth which is directly opposed to what he really wants. I agree, we need to invest resources, ideally after we take them from people with too many resources and invest them into areas that hurt the most in our society. But just doing what the public "wants" in a time where opinion is formed by fake news and hyper partisan bubbles is just suicide on Brexit level. LOL, if you say so. Every single nordic country is ahead of Germany on the far right party curve. In all cases refusing to deal with them or their issues and talking about how their stupid supporters are and how they only want X because of Y has lead to one thing. They double up the next election. However working with them and/or taking on some of their core issues. Then suddenly something magical happens. They stop growing, sometimes they even deflate. Germany can choose to deal with some of AfDs issues now or keep calling them idiots and then deal with them when they are the largest party next election.
There are basically two main talking points of the AfD:
1. Immigration
2. It's a new party which will bring change! All the other parties are stupid and old! Also profit and money for everyone!
The newly elected government has promised to look into 1.
The second point is kinda hard to deflate cause people are buying into that shit with zero evidence and on a basis of fake news
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On February 27 2025 22:11 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2025 18:18 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 27 2025 16:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It's actually not hard at all to make people care for eachother. It's the basis of human history. The only way to make your civilisation bigger is to expand the group people feel they belong to. And above small village (200-300 people) you have to do it artificially because we don't have more capacity for connections than that.
It goes from family, tribe, village, town, city, clan, religion, currency, nationstate, CULTURE etc.
Continent and humanity are to high up for most.
People like to belong and are hardwired to not care as much for other groups.
We built civilisation around constantly building larger social constructs that we can belong to.
Untill about 50 years ago when we reversed course, stopped the indoctrination into proven concepts and started new ones.
People don't like it, and the reaction is to vote against it.
But keep seeing them as poor plebs that don't understand any better, I'm sure it will go well (hint; it won't).
Realise that democracy means the will of the people and either give them what they want or come up with something better.
One thing Trump has nailed down is that it's the feeling that matters.
For example if the EU was reframed as nation states cooperating with each other in a fair way nothing would have to change and people would be happiet. That is not true. The EU is aways a scapegoat and almost never the cause for trouble. The people don't know what they want, me included. We yell for solutions that sound fancy in our brain, either because we thought we were smort ourselves or because telegram told us and then someone more clever tells us why this is a stupid idea. You have to solve the issues that spark someone to yell what they want. For me, more effort to combat climate change and a strngthening of the bottom 90% in society. For my brother-in-law, better infrstructure and job opportunity in his town in the middle of nowhere i north east germany. That man was furious whenever he heard or saw about last generation blocking streets, but when his wife cam home 3 hours late because of the farmers protest against the same government but with support from his party AfD, he was exstatic that she was part of the protest movement. Despite AfD being the least farmer friendly party in the country. People want unreasonable things. People want hateful things. You cannot give in to stupidity. If The party he elected would get into office and leave the EU, our society would leóse an unimaginable amount of wealth which is directly opposed to what he really wants. I agree, we need to invest resources, ideally after we take them from people with too many resources and invest them into areas that hurt the most in our society. But just doing what the public "wants" in a time where opinion is formed by fake news and hyper partisan bubbles is just suicide on Brexit level. LOL, if you say so. Every single nordic country is ahead of Germany on the far right party curve. In all cases refusing to deal with them or their issues and talking about how their stupid supporters are and how they only want X because of Y has lead to one thing. They double up the next election. However working with them and/or taking on some of their core issues. Then suddenly something magical happens. They stop growing, sometimes they even deflate. Germany can choose to deal with some of AfDs issues now or keep calling them idiots and then deal with them when they are the largest party next election.
what are you suggesting? That we burn down some migrant homes as a compromise? Look, the core of AfD is pure NeoNazi and NeoLiberal. People that subscribe to their ideology are lost to society. There is no upside to "let's deport a few million people, 80% of which are german citizens".
There is also no upside to "let's leave the EU". People that do not operate under the rules of our Grundgesetz or basic math should not affect policy, same as that i do not get my career plns from a toddler. Being a unicorn handler sounds nice, but pays really bad and unicorn poop is super hard to get our of your hair.
If someone says "the immigrants are destroying my chances for a job" i ask them about their economic situation and try to give them advise/policy for a better chance at a more fulfilling life. If they continue with okay, now i am better off but i still want to sink a boat of african refugees, that person loses the chance to contribute to society politically.
As long as the vast majority of people is still okay with the rules that outlaw the opinion of the far right as inhumane, dangerous and stupid, we have to accept that 20% of people feel left out when we tell them that their bigotry is not okay. You do not want Germany with bigotry allowed in the middle of Europe.
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I think its not just a far right thing but an opposition party thing in general.
Parties grow while in the opposition and shrink while in power. Because kicking, complaining and offering unicorns without having to actually follow through is a whole lot easier then actually having the power to try and fix problems.
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EPT
