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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10142 Posts
July 03 2019 12:38 GMT
#25041
Yeah i just facepalmed in my car when i listened to the name Lagarde.
It's like they have no shame at all and prefer to double down till the bitter end.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11857 Posts
July 03 2019 13:17 GMT
#25042
I really, really hope that the EU parliament (which still has to agree to the EU commission) doesn't agree to this. However, the EU parliament is really good at voting through bad things.

It is so weird. I really like the EU. I want to advocate for the EU. The whole idea of european cooperation in general is obviously good. And yet, the EU itself seems to try its best to make people dislike it through corrupt and just bad decisions. It almost seems as if the EU is trying to stop people from liking the EU.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18296 Posts
July 03 2019 13:47 GMT
#25043
On July 03 2019 22:17 Simberto wrote:
I really, really hope that the EU parliament (which still has to agree to the EU commission) doesn't agree to this. However, the EU parliament is really good at voting through bad things.

It is so weird. I really like the EU. I want to advocate for the EU. The whole idea of european cooperation in general is obviously good. And yet, the EU itself seems to try its best to make people dislike it through corrupt and just bad decisions. It almost seems as if the EU is trying to stop people from liking the EU.

The EU parliament are a bunch of toadies. I don't see them voting down the commission. Although it'd restore a little bit of my faith in European institutions if they actually do.
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9300 Posts
July 03 2019 15:53 GMT
#25044
I don't mind the way von der Leyen was chosen. Yes, it's a result of backroom deals etc, but the final choice was made by an unanimous* vote of our governments. You can say it's less democratic than leaving the choice to directly elected MEPs, but MEPs are rarely the most competent/popular/powerful politicians from their countries. I'm fine with things that are both complicated and important being decided mainly by national governments and then overseen by the Parliament.

MEPs can't even group themselves properly. Slovakia with socialist prime minister was among the countries opposing the appointment of socialist candidate Timmermans.

* - Germans "abstaining" doesn't count.
You're now breathing manually
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18296 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-03 16:03:39
July 03 2019 16:02 GMT
#25045
On July 04 2019 00:53 Sent. wrote:
I don't mind the way von der Leyen was chosen. Yes, it's a result of backroom deals etc, but the final choice was made by an unanimous* vote of our governments. You can say it's less democratic than leaving the choice to directly elected MEPs, but MEPs are rarely the most competent/popular/powerful politicians from their countries. I'm fine with things that are both complicated and important being decided mainly by national governments and then overseen by the Parliament.

MEPs can't even group themselves properly. Slovakia with socialist prime minister was among the countries opposing the appointment of socialist candidate Timmermans.

* - Germans "abstaining" doesn't count.

I don't mind the process so much as the outcome. If Eastern Europeans don't like Timmermans, that's fine. Pick someone else, but why pick someone that hasn't been in the picture for the position at all and is, additionally, stained by a corruption scandal?

It just stinks of cronyism.

E: and to be clear, if this is the outcome of that process,then that stains the process too. Clearly it is not a good way of picking the commission if the chosen commission is a bunch of corrupt cronies.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6277 Posts
July 03 2019 16:16 GMT
#25046
Lagarde as ECB president is aweful. She has no central bank experience at all. The central bank is supposed to be independent. While there has always been politics involved it's never been this bad. There were many candidates with the credentials and the experience (even from France) and this is who they come up with :/.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22406 Posts
July 03 2019 16:20 GMT
#25047
On July 04 2019 01:02 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 00:53 Sent. wrote:
I don't mind the way von der Leyen was chosen. Yes, it's a result of backroom deals etc, but the final choice was made by an unanimous* vote of our governments. You can say it's less democratic than leaving the choice to directly elected MEPs, but MEPs are rarely the most competent/popular/powerful politicians from their countries. I'm fine with things that are both complicated and important being decided mainly by national governments and then overseen by the Parliament.

MEPs can't even group themselves properly. Slovakia with socialist prime minister was among the countries opposing the appointment of socialist candidate Timmermans.

* - Germans "abstaining" doesn't count.

I don't mind the process so much as the outcome. If Eastern Europeans don't like Timmermans, that's fine. Pick someone else, but why pick someone that hasn't been in the picture for the position at all and is, additionally, stained by a corruption scandal?

It just stinks of cronyism.

E: and to be clear, if this is the outcome of that process,then that stains the process too. Clearly it is not a good way of picking the commission if the chosen commission is a bunch of corrupt cronies.
This.
The problem is with the results not the process itself (tho that obviously has its own problems)
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-04 08:53:01
July 04 2019 08:51 GMT
#25048
On July 03 2019 19:43 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2019 18:17 TheDwf wrote:
On July 03 2019 16:59 zatic wrote:
So after weeks of haggling the heads of state dismiss the whole idea of candidacy for the head of the European Commission and drag out a lying, corrupt sycophant who no one thought of until yesterday from under Merkels skirt. A women whose career is defined by scandals on scandals, incompetence, lying, while being protected from any fallout by her absolute devotion to Merkel.

Could you elaborate a bit for us non-German people ?

As for Christine Lagarde, she was condemned in France for "neglect" over the loss of 400 millions of euros for the State. But since this was in a special court and she was head of the IMF, she got... no sentence. No sentence!

+ Show Spoiler +
In brief: Leyen's entire career is defined by devout loyalty to Merkel. She would have been tossed to the bin in any other environment. I'll highlight a few things that come to mind:

Ministry of family affairs
Notoriously tried to implement internet filters to combat child porn. Would not steer away when challenged by ISPs, experts in tech and law, and the ministry of the interior. Outright lied on multiple occasions, contradicting law enforcement and other government officials in the matter. Much of her effort was driven by a radical Christian foundation tightly linked to her family.
Ultimately nothing came of it.

Ministry of labor
Honestly, I don't remember a thing she did in her four years in office. She did talk a lot about progressive issues, non of which were implemented under here leadership.

She played a key role in the messed up negotiations of the 2013 coalition. This might be interpretation by me in some part, but I see some responsibility for the delay in forming a government in her acting purely out of self-interest and acting in bad faith. There were leaks from the negotiations showing how she texted Merkel to get her to cancel agreements from a working group that Leyen co-responsible for. It's been a while so I don't remember the details, but broadly she undermined the negotiations using her influence with Merkel where-ever it would suit her.

Ministry of defence
First, she does have some accomplishments here. There has been decade long talk that the Bundeswehr needs to be a competitive employer with compulsory service all but abolished. She actually implemented improvements here, mostly targeted at making the jobs more family friendly (child care services, easier relocation, remote work, flexible work hours, better pension system). Some of that would benefit the civilian staff more than combat troops, but still these were considerable improvements for the soldiers.

On the other hand, she was involved in an endless chain of scandals and affairs in the Bundeswehr.
She showed zero leadership and resolve when Nazi sympathisers and terrorists were discover within the ranks. Evidence for Nazis in the BW ultimately came from the French services.
All branches of the Bundeswehr are in disrepair. Some blame for this is with her predecessors who cut down the BW drastically. Still, she has been on the post longer than her two predecessors combined, and things did not get better. Half the Luftwaffe is not combat ready, I believe all of the navy's helicopters are grounded, similar with the army's fighting vehicles.
The A400 transport plane, the Eurofighter, and the Boxer fighting vehicle were all catastrophes with exploding costs and lacking readiness.
Out of all these problems she choose to butt heads with Heckler & Koch over supposedly malfunctioning G36 rifles. And earned a humiliating defeat in court as the rifles were meeting specification exactly.
Looking forward, the purchasing policy is .. questionable. I suppose this is nothing surprising in militaries around the world but still.
The Gorch Fock, a ceremonial sailing ship has been in maintenance which so far racked up over 100 mio in expenses.
Right now there is investigation in hundreds of millions being over-payed for consultancy services to McKinsey - the company her children happen to work at, including investigation on contracts and other paperwork around the consultancy being destroyed.


Really, for any of the above, another minister would have had to resign. But, as one of Merkels closest allies, she was always protected from serious fallout.

She was however considered past her prime days politically, so this move to the European commission was for sure a surprise domestically too.

Thanks man!

So from this popularity rating (published in Spiegel I believe), I see that the reject is fairly... general?

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15365 Posts
July 04 2019 11:22 GMT
#25049
To be fair, that is her rating as Minister of Defence - and at the lowest point she was at that post, when all these scandals I described are coming together.
In a general popularity rating, she would probably rate much much higher.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
July 04 2019 16:29 GMT
#25050
You don't remember the days of "Zensursula?" She's always been ridiculously unpopular, and she's essentially the embodiment of the Peter's principle. For some reason she's managed to fail herself up the career ladder.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15365 Posts
July 04 2019 18:25 GMT
#25051
Huh? She was very popular during the censorship debate among the general population. Of course your typical netizen (I was one of them) detested her for it, but the whole reason she pushed for internet censorship was that it was very popular, and "Think of the Children" would still score you publicity points in those 2009 days. Plus, she was a rising star back then. It was populism by the book.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18296 Posts
July 16 2019 19:42 GMT
#25052
On July 04 2019 01:16 RvB wrote:
Lagarde as ECB president is aweful. She has no central bank experience at all. The central bank is supposed to be independent. While there has always been politics involved it's never been this bad. There were many candidates with the credentials and the experience (even from France) and this is who they come up with :/.

As expected, the parliament was bribed, threatened and cajoled into getting on board with this. The EU is rotten to its core.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22406 Posts
July 16 2019 20:06 GMT
#25053
Sad but as you said, expected.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
July 16 2019 20:42 GMT
#25054
Meanwhile in Germany it looks like the CDU has reconsidered AKK (Annegret Kramp Karrenbauer) as their chancellor candidate.
They now gave her the minister of defense job... Which may not burn you from unelected future jobs like president of the european commision, but certainly acts as full stop to any hopes to ever get elected in the future.

It is basically impossible to avoid bad press. There is not a snowballs chance in hell, that the Gorch Fock (a large training sail ship, and grave of millions) will suddenly reappear in working condition.
The Leopard 3 project won't advance a bit. The German Air Force will remain grounded mostly. And we don't talk about what happens, if some German soldier drives over a mine somewhere or one of our last remaining helicopters is crashing again.
Like I can't even imagine how a positive headline for her could look like. But I can easily list a dozen terrible ones.

There is nearly nothing she can do about those things, but she will get all the shit for it. And she doesn't even have the possibility to fully blame it on her predecessor, like you could do after taking over the job after the rival party had it for years.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 17 2019 18:52 GMT
#25055
Gorch Fock is a “grave of millions”?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
July 17 2019 18:55 GMT
#25056
On July 18 2019 03:52 IgnE wrote:
Gorch Fock is a “grave of millions”?

... of Euros.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4756 Posts
July 17 2019 22:03 GMT
#25057
Somehow they manged to dissapoint citizens across the entire EU with their picks. "New EU" citizens are dissapointed becuse nobody from new countries holds major position and "Old EU" citizins because picks from their countries are unpopular and/or corrupt.
Pathetic Greta hater.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
July 22 2019 10:15 GMT
#25058
@BigJ or any Austrian people: any update on the Ibiza scandal and its consequences?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23989 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-23 11:33:09
July 23 2019 11:23 GMT
#25059
Not much English reporting and I have no familiarity with the sites so forgive me if these are dumb questions.

Are people across France really asking about Steve and are the reports of French police suicides being up being sensationalized or does there seem to be a real issue? (like are they both being sensationalized for clicks and such or is there something worth looking into here?


Apparently police were breaking up a protest and protesters ended up in the water and he couldn't swim and hasn't been seen since.

The question refers to Steve Maia Caniço, a 24-year-old teaching assistant who disappeared during the Fete de la Musique in Nantes in June. Thousands of people head to Nantes every year for the France-wide festival at the end of June, but this year trouble flared at the Nantes event.


www.thelocal.fr

Police suicides are also apparently up significantly and part of a rising trend in France and I'm not sure if it's being sensationalized or potentially a bigger problem (like something about their job/living conditions is getting to them at a systemic level)

One police officer in France takes their own life every four days, a shocking new report reveals, sparking renewed concern among the forces of law and order and unions.

It's a tragic problem that France has been struggling to solve for years.

But the issue of French police suicides is back in the headlines after a new report revealed that since January 1st 2019 the number of officers ending their own lives is even higher than in previous years.

Since the beginning of 2019, a total of 24 suicides committed by police officers, according to the latest figures released by the DGPN (Directorate General of the National Police).


www.thelocal.fr

I'm not really worth much parsing European sources so I was just wondering if people more familiar with the situation and such could provide some info on whats what (at least their perspective)?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
July 26 2019 09:01 GMT
#25060
On July 23 2019 20:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not much English reporting and I have no familiarity with the sites so forgive me if these are dumb questions.

Are people across France really asking about Steve and are the reports of French police suicides being up being sensationalized or does there seem to be a real issue? (like are they both being sensationalized for clicks and such or is there something worth looking into here?

Apparently police were breaking up a protest and protesters ended up in the water and he couldn't swim and hasn't been seen since.

It was not a protest, it was people dancing in the night for la Fête de la musique (a yearly national music festival) in a terrain far from any human presence—they were not troubling anyone. The police tolerated them up to 4:00 am, so at 4:30 they came to disperse them. The place was just near la Loire, a very dangerous river. No security gates to prevent people from falling into the river (several meters below the "dock").

I spare you the details but the police just used a criminally dumb and violent charge (with gas tears, explosive grenades, even dogs...) to disperse people and 15 people fell into la Loire. 14 of them were rescued but Steve never came back. He didn't know to swim so he presumably fell into la Loire and drowned.

Où est Steve ? [where is Steve ?] has been the question asked by his closes and the left on the Internet (mainstream medias cared little) since this tragic event happened. (The rest of the political forces don't seem to care, as in most events linked to cop violence...) Où est Steve ? has been written in the walls a bit everywhere in Nantes. A few marches happened to ask for justice. 5 weeks after the event, the body is yet to be found. To use an euphemism, authorities did not seem really eager to use the maximum of effort to search for Steve...

It took some time for left-wing politicians to seize the theme and ask the macronist power questions about this. Next week the results from the inquiry of the IGPN—the police institution used to launder police violence—will be known about this night, the minister of Interior will make the conclusions available.

Steve's death is another case of the rampant police brutality going on in France (but particularly under Macron) since a few years.

Police suicides are also apparently up significantly and part of a rising trend in France and I'm not sure if it's being sensationalized or potentially a bigger problem (like something about their job/living conditions is getting to them at a systemic level)

Yes, there is a rise in suicides in the French police due to horrible management and bad job conditions.
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