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On May 28 2019 05:28 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 04:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Just that J also seems to the left of most (I read this thread even though I don't post often) but otherwise the description was fine.
I wonder if I could sell "This takes 5 minutes in Germany" t-shirts in the hours long lines to vote in the US? Don't know if you are still reading this thread but it literally took me 2 minutes to walk to my local church turned polling station, then less than a minute to tell them my address and name, take the polling slip, walk to the cubicle, read it, put a cross on the box, fold it up, hand it to the person who inserted it in the box, and then another 2 minutes to walk home. There was no queue.
Five minute walk for me, but rest pretty much the same here in Poland.[/QUOTE]
The act of voting itself does not take much time, but if you want to do things properly, reading what 34 lists are about, understanding what they propose, making a background check on the 79 members of each list (so 2686 people total in France), analysing their speach patterns, understanding who they target and what their most probable true intentions are takes months.
Taking polls into account, 28 lists out of 34 can be ignored (no chance of having elected representatives) and checks can be kept to the 5-10 people on each remaining list that are within error margins. Would still require at least days if not weeks to identify/decide what the best course of action is.
Having an informed opinion requires a time most of us do not have. But of course, there is always the easy way of blindly voting for a list because it contains a name/party name and/or presents an idea I agree with. Not a good vote in my opinion, but I still do it and can be decided in less than an hour.
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So everyone who didnt read the program of 10 people on major lists is uniformed? Sorry but thats ridiculous. Most people vote according to party lines and knowing what each party stands for is usually enough. Also many candidates do not even have publicly available program different than party they represent.
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On June 03 2019 22:20 Silvanel wrote:
So everyone who didnt read the program of 10 people on major lists is uniformed? Sorry but thats ridiculous. Most people vote according to party lines and knowing what each party stands for is usually enough. Also many candidates do not even have publicly available program different than party they represent.
The people on the list will not declare another agenda than that of the list and will probably stay in line during the campaign, but it is at least interesting to look at their past, where they come from, what their published opinions were (and when available, what their private opinions have been). I also look at how they came to be in that party/on that list and how likely I estimate them to actually do the work they are being elected for (some of the representatives actually participate in less than 15% of the comission workgroups they are members of).
Uninformed might be too strong a word, but I feel I have done a bad job as a citizen when I vote based on published lists documents only.
(and from time to time will vote blank as a result)
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On June 03 2019 22:20 Silvanel wrote:
So everyone who didnt read the program of 10 people on major lists is uniformed? Sorry but thats ridiculous. Most people vote according to party lines and knowing what each party stands for is usually enough. Also many candidates do not even have publicly available program different than party they represent.
Not to mention that the burgeoise republic was explicitely designed to grant a "free mandate", so that representatives are explicitely not bound to parties, programs or the electorate.
Holding politicians accountable so that they
always must represent majorities with "imperative mandates" is the core concept of (theoretical) socialist republics. People killed and died to prevent that sort of responsibility that Oshuy demands from people.
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On June 03 2019 22:20 Silvanel wrote:
So everyone who didnt read the program of 10 people on major lists is uniformed? Sorry but thats ridiculous. Most people vote according to party lines and knowing what each party stands for is usually enough. Also many candidates do not even have publicly available program different than party they represent.
I do it pretty simple:
I vote for the party i stand behind the most, if i like a candidate from another party i will give him my vote but not to his party.
Then I cross out candidates from the party list i don't like for various stuff they did/i know off.
Then I cross out candidates with Jobs that are overrepresentated in the party in my opinion (for my list mostly lawyers, students, career politicians and sometimes teachers - This is plain unfair, but sue me  ).
Then i chose between the remaining few.
But hardcore "partyline" politics are luckily not very important in Switzerland. Our Parlament is basically forced into being a coalition of all parties that make it in and there is no minimum rule, if a person gets enough votes for a seat he plain gets it.
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On June 03 2019 20:15 Oshuy wrote:
The act of voting itself does not take much time, but if you want to do things properly, reading what 34 lists are about, understanding what they propose, making a background check on the 79 members of each list (so 2686 people total in France), analysing their speach patterns, understanding who they target and what their most probable true intentions are takes months.
Taking polls into account, 28 lists out of 34 can be ignored (no chance of having elected representatives) and checks can be kept to the 5-10 people on each remaining list that are within error margins. Would still require at least days if not weeks to identify/decide what the best course of action is.
Having an informed opinion requires a time most of us do not have. But of course, there is always the easy way of blindly voting for a list because it contains a name/party name and/or presents an idea I agree with. Not a good vote in my opinion, but I still do it and can be decided in less than an hour.
It's the EU election. What I am voting for is quite literally the voting blocs they will form as part of the EU parliament. As can be imagined, being in the UK, the one thing that is forefront in my mind is brexit in regards to what I would want my MEP to represent. What the MEP will do in EU parliament is nowhere as important as that.
In any case, I came to the voting poll already knowing who which party I will vote for because the research is all done beforehand. Who has time sitting there with wi-fi in a booth researching the candidates on the day?
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On June 04 2019 01:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2019 20:15 Oshuy wrote:
The act of voting itself does not take much time, but if you want to do things properly, reading what 34 lists are about, understanding what they propose, making a background check on the 79 members of each list (so 2686 people total in France), analysing their speach patterns, understanding who they target and what their most probable true intentions are takes months.
Taking polls into account, 28 lists out of 34 can be ignored (no chance of having elected representatives) and checks can be kept to the 5-10 people on each remaining list that are within error margins. Would still require at least days if not weeks to identify/decide what the best course of action is.
Having an informed opinion requires a time most of us do not have. But of course, there is always the easy way of blindly voting for a list because it contains a name/party name and/or presents an idea I agree with. Not a good vote in my opinion, but I still do it and can be decided in less than an hour.
It's the EU election. What I am voting for is quite literally the voting blocs they will form as part of the EU parliament. As can be imagined, being in the UK, the one thing that is forefront in my mind is brexit in regards to what I would want my MEP to represent. What the MEP will do in EU parliament is nowhere as important as that. In any case, I came to the voting poll already knowing who which party I will vote for because the research is all done beforehand. Who has time sitting there with wi-fi in a booth researching the candidates on the day?
The person list is published well in advance. I picked spot 2X in the enviormental party election. Thus no chance to get elected but helps a bit with a better spot in future elections and shows which opinions of the party I mostly agreed with.
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Anyone for an overview of the Danish elections yesterday?
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WE FUCKIN DID IT!!!!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48739256
I'm 32 years old and this is the first election i am in the winning side. It feels... great!! It can seem a small victory (its a mayoral election after all) but when you consider AKP lost Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir, that means things are changing. Slow but steady.
After all... Erdogan himself said that "whoever wins Istanbul, wins Turkey"
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What is population distribution in Turkey? In Poland PiS is losing all major cities and still wining general election so this can be a long way to go to win general election from here.
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I had wondered how that turned out, since the thing just kinda disappeared after the whole "election got the wrong result, so we have to repeat the election" thing. So it just took a bit for the second election to be finished.
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Istanbul + Ankara + Izmir (3 biggest cities, all of them have CHP mayors) have 25-26m. people total. Turkey has 80sh million. AKP has overwhelming support in smaller cities but as i said before thats a start.
These 3 cities controls majority of the money, production and services. Istanbul alone has %40 of Turkey's industrial production. But more importantly people have hope now. Thats pretty new. AKP have very low support in young and educated people. If somehow we manage to survive for 4 years (next general election in 2023) we may actually finally get rid of our beloved dictator...
Still.. I still don't think we can actually get rid of him in elections.
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40% of production in one city, thats crazy for country with the size of Turkey. All the best to You, there is not much love for Your president in Europe.
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Due to huge migration in 80's 90's, Istanbul grew absurdly fast. There was a saying "Istanbul... where the streets are paved with gold"
There is a 50/50 split in Turkey. You worship Erdogan or you hate Erdogan. There is no middle ground.
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Zurich15365 Posts
So after weeks of haggling the heads of state dismiss the whole idea of candidacy for the head of the European Commission and drag out a lying, corrupt sycophant who no one thought of until yesterday from under Merkels skirt. A women whose career is defined by scandals on scandals, incompetence, lying, while being protected from any fallout by her absolute devotion to Merkel.
It's really difficult to not get jaded and cynical about this EU commission farce.
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On July 03 2019 16:59 zatic wrote:
So after weeks of haggling the heads of state dismiss the whole idea of candidacy for the head of the European Commission and drag out a lying, corrupt sycophant who no one thought of until yesterday from under Merkels skirt. A women whose career is defined by scandals on scandals, incompetence, lying, while being protected from any fallout by her absolute devotion to Merkel.
Could you elaborate a bit for us non-German people ?
As for Christine Lagarde, she was condemned in France for "neglect" over the loss of 400 millions of euros for the State. But since this was in a special court and she was head of the IMF, she got... no sentence. No sentence!
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I saw those two names and remembered corruption scandals. The EU is truly doing its best to clear up its image. It seems rotten to its core if these two candidates can be chosen for important postions in the commission.
I am very pro-EU, but this really makes me sympathize with those who want to do away with the whole thing.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On July 03 2019 18:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 16:59 zatic wrote:
So after weeks of haggling the heads of state dismiss the whole idea of candidacy for the head of the European Commission and drag out a lying, corrupt sycophant who no one thought of until yesterday from under Merkels skirt. A women whose career is defined by scandals on scandals, incompetence, lying, while being protected from any fallout by her absolute devotion to Merkel. Could you elaborate a bit for us non-German people ? As for Christine Lagarde, she was condemned in France for "neglect" over the loss of 400 millions of euros for the State. But since this was in a special court and she was head of the IMF, she got... no sentence. No sentence!
In brief: Leyen's entire career is defined by devout loyalty to Merkel. She would have been tossed to the bin in any other environment. I'll highlight a few things that come to mind:
Ministry of family affairs
Notoriously tried to implement internet filters to combat child porn. Would not steer away when challenged by ISPs, experts in tech and law, and the ministry of the interior. Outright lied on multiple occasions, contradicting law enforcement and other government officials in the matter. Much of her effort was driven by a radical Christian foundation tightly linked to her family.
Ultimately nothing came of it.
Ministry of labor
Honestly, I don't remember a thing she did in her four years in office. She did talk a lot about progressive issues, non of which were implemented under here leadership.
She played a key role in the messed up negotiations of the 2013 coalition. This might be interpretation by me in some part, but I see some responsibility for the delay in forming a government in her acting purely out of self-interest and acting in bad faith. There were leaks from the negotiations showing how she texted Merkel to get her to cancel agreements from a working group that Leyen co-responsible for. It's been a while so I don't remember the details, but broadly she undermined the negotiations using her influence with Merkel where-ever it would suit her.
Ministry of defence
First, she does have some accomplishments here. There has been decade long talk that the Bundeswehr needs to be a competitive employer with compulsory service all but abolished. She actually implemented improvements here, mostly targeted at making the jobs more family friendly (child care services, easier relocation, remote work, flexible work hours, better pension system). Some of that would benefit the civilian staff more than combat troops, but still these were considerable improvements for the soldiers.
On the other hand, she was involved in an endless chain of scandals and affairs in the Bundeswehr.
She showed zero leadership and resolve when Nazi sympathisers and terrorists were discover within the ranks. Evidence for Nazis in the BW ultimately came from the French services.
All branches of the Bundeswehr are in disrepair. Some blame for this is with her predecessors who cut down the BW drastically. Still, she has been on the post longer than her two predecessors combined, and things did not get better. Half the Luftwaffe is not combat ready, I believe all of the navy's helicopters are grounded, similar with the army's fighting vehicles.
The A400 transport plane, the Eurofighter, and the Boxer fighting vehicle were all catastrophes with exploding costs and lacking readiness.
Out of all these problems she choose to butt heads with Heckler & Koch over supposedly malfunctioning G36 rifles. And earned a humiliating defeat in court as the rifles were meeting specification exactly.
Looking forward, the purchasing policy is .. questionable. I suppose this is nothing surprising in militaries around the world but still.
The Gorch Fock, a ceremonial sailing ship has been in maintenance which so far racked up over 100 mio in expenses.
Right now there is investigation in hundreds of millions being over-payed for consultancy services to McKinsey - the company her children happen to work at, including investigation on contracts and other paperwork around the consultancy being destroyed.
Really, for any of the above, another minister would have had to resign. But, as one of Merkels closest allies, she was always protected from serious fallout.
She was however considered past her prime days politically, so this move to the European commission was for sure a surprise domestically too.
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Yeah its hard to defend the EU when this is how, and who, it selects as leaders
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On July 03 2019 19:43 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 18:17 TheDwf wrote:On July 03 2019 16:59 zatic wrote:
So after weeks of haggling the heads of state dismiss the whole idea of candidacy for the head of the European Commission and drag out a lying, corrupt sycophant who no one thought of until yesterday from under Merkels skirt. A women whose career is defined by scandals on scandals, incompetence, lying, while being protected from any fallout by her absolute devotion to Merkel. Could you elaborate a bit for us non-German people ? As for Christine Lagarde, she was condemned in France for "neglect" over the loss of 400 millions of euros for the State. But since this was in a special court and she was head of the IMF, she got... no sentence. No sentence! In brief: Leyen's entire career is defined by devout loyalty to Merkel. She would have been tossed to the bin in any other environment. I'll highlight a few things that come to mind: Ministry of family affairs Notoriously tried to implement internet filters to combat child porn. Would not steer away when challenged by ISPs, experts in tech and law, and the ministry of the interior. Outright lied on multiple occasions, contradicting law enforcement and other government officials in the matter. Much of her effort was driven by a radical Christian foundation tightly linked to her family. Ultimately nothing came of it. Ministry of labor Honestly, I don't remember a thing she did in her four years in office. She did talk a lot about progressive issues, non of which were implemented under here leadership. She played a key role in the messed up negotiations of the 2013 coalition. This might be interpretation by me in some part, but I see some responsibility for the delay in forming a government in her acting purely out of self-interest and acting in bad faith. There were leaks from the negotiations showing how she texted Merkel to get her to cancel agreements from a working group that Leyen co-responsible for. It's been a while so I don't remember the details, but broadly she undermined the negotiations using her influence with Merkel where-ever it would suit her. Ministry of defence First, she does have some accomplishments here. There has been decade long talk that the Bundeswehr needs to be a competitive employer with compulsory service all but abolished. She actually implemented improvements here, mostly targeted at making the jobs more family friendly (child care services, easier relocation, remote work, flexible work hours, better pension system). Some of that would benefit the civilian staff more than combat troops, but still these were considerable improvements for the soldiers. On the other hand, she was involved in an endless chain of scandals and affairs in the Bundeswehr. She showed zero leadership and resolve when Nazi sympathisers and terrorists were discover within the ranks. Evidence for Nazis in the BW ultimately came from the French services. All branches of the Bundeswehr are in disrepair. Some blame for this is with her predecessors who cut down the BW drastically. Still, she has been on the post longer than her two predecessors combined, and things did not get better. Half the Luftwaffe is not combat ready, I believe all of the navy's helicopters are grounded, similar with the army's fighting vehicles. The A400 transport plane, the Eurofighter, and the Boxer fighting vehicle were all catastrophes with exploding costs and lacking readiness. Out of all these problems she choose to butt heads with Heckler & Koch over supposedly malfunctioning G36 rifles. And earned a humiliating defeat in court as the rifles were meeting specification exactly. Looking forward, the purchasing policy is .. questionable. I suppose this is nothing surprising in militaries around the world but still. The Gorch Fock, a ceremonial sailing ship has been in maintenance which so far racked up over 100 mio in expenses. Right now there is investigation in hundreds of millions being over-payed for consultancy services to McKinsey - the company her children happen to work at, including investigation on contracts and other paperwork around the consultancy being destroyed. Really, for any of the above, another minister would have had to resign. But, as one of Merkels closest allies, she was always protected from serious fallout. She was however considered past her prime days politically, so this move to the European commission was for sure a surprise domestically too.
In Poland we have a saying that goes "a turd will never sink", it seems to fit that person perfectly. Armies being in disrepair seem to be a common issue in the EU, the Polish armed forces face a lot of the same problems as the BW, we spend a lot of money but somehow soldiers have to walk around in tattered uniforms, our fleet is basically non-functional, and our air and armoured forces are not doing too hot either. Now, I'm not some military fanboy but I do believe our countries should have professional, well paid and well equipped armies with competent leaders and good intelligence, just so that nobody (totally not looking at you, Russia) gets any silly ideas in the near future.
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EPT
