EPTEDIT: I misremembered and stand corrected: There were in fact only 12 assault rapes in that period.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1186
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
EDIT: I misremembered and stand corrected: There were in fact only 12 assault rapes in that period. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9956 Posts
On September 26 2018 00:02 Ghostcom wrote: It's a fraction... There were obviously more than 12 cases. These numbers were revealed by a group of journalists who read through all the cases from January 2016 and until end of May 2017. I'd like to see a source for this. 'People with an immigrant background' is the kind of phrase you hear in extreme right wing circles to mean non-whites. Often those people are domestic nationals in every possible sense. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
And no, the expression is commonly used by Statistics Denmark in their reports (published every second year or so). It is a very well-defined term by them. Ironically whites are included (but when you look at the disaggregated data you'll notice that Asians and Whites are not really the ones inflating the numbers. It's all there on DST.dk, although they tend to update their website and shuffle the reports around quite often). You can pretty much just Google #voldtaget and you will find the entire article series which was published during the summer by BT. | ||
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warding
Portugal2396 Posts
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On September 26 2018 00:13 warding wrote: If we're going full-rightwingy shouldn't we identify the origin of the victims too? I mean, is the far right going to be as bothered if descendants of immigrants are raping descendents of immigrants as opposed to blue eyed natives? Funnily enough I remember reading some data (cant remember where, or which country it was, sadly) about how most violence perpetrated by immigrants was aimed at other immigrants. Id imagine the far-right wouldnt have too big an issue with that, other than it not being supportive of their narrative. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Don't you think it is a problem if you don't try to look at the data yourself and try to assure other people that the data is there even though you cannot find it yourself? Also wtf is "assault rape"? dst.dk only recognises rape, of which there are roughly 551 criminal convictions in between 2016 and half of 2017. There must be some very special Danish legalese that your bt.dk link points towards. This is some amazing definition that turns rape convictions from 551 to 12. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On September 26 2018 00:46 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Sorry Ghostcom, you don't get to imply that you looked through statistics from Statistic Denmark, when in fact you have not; that's it is available on dst.dk, when in fact you cannot find it there, and I cannot find it either after. This is very dishonest of you. Don't you think it is a problem if you don't try to look at the data yourself and try to assure other people that the data is there even though you cannot find it yourself? Also wtf is "assault rape"? dst.dk only recognises rape, of which there are roughly 551 criminal convictions in between 2016 and half of 2017. There must be some very special Danish legalese that your bt.dk link points towards. This is some amazing definition that turns rape convictions from 551 to 12. I have linked to the dst data before in this thread - I am currently on a cellphone and thus not really inclined to dig up the data again currently. I'll do it when I get home if I remember it. The data on assault rapes was from the BT article (which I did link above). The data on every second rape being committed by an immigrant or descendant is also available from there (as well as the dst report on immigrants and their descendants). In short, I have seen the data. I have supplied parts of the data previously and currently I have supplied the new data which was relevant to the discussion at hand (or at least a direct path to it). I admit that ideally I would have dug up the dst report again, but again - cellphone. The assault rape is clearly defined by BT in their article as "a rape in which perpetrator and victim do not know each other or only know each other peripherally). It is not their definition, nor is it a definition limited to Denmark, although the correct English legal term is probably something else. I just went with the literal translation. So no. I don't think I have a problem other than my increasing dislike of your posting style and lack of ability to separate argument from man. EDIT: The report (the overview one, they have made special issues as well) is here: https://www.dst.dk/Site/Dst/Udgivelser/GetPubFile.aspx?id=20704&sid=indv2016 | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 26 2018 01:51 Plansix wrote: Rape is a tough crime to focus on because many sexual assaults go unreported or are not reported for years after the event. I am left wondering if there is a reason why the rapes committed by immigrants or the descendants of immigrants are reported more often than other demographics. The assosciation of women shelters has reacted to the demand from the interior ministry, because it includes the demands to put a focus on sexual crimes in the public or between strangers. They replied that most sexual crimes are between family members or in partnerships and not communicated for reasons of victim protection. Putting an additional focus on public crimes would distort the perception even further. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
The fact that any newspaper can point to 12 cases in a year and a half should simply set alarm bells ringing that a massive degree of manipulation has occured when none should occur when dst.dk itself points to 340 convictions for rape in 2016 alone. Why when reporting on rape does whether the victim knows the assailant 24 hours before hand or not? In fact from reading the BT article it's personal definition, which could very well be wrong as I infact cannot read Danish, seems to be that in all 12 cases, the act of "rape" has not actually occured at all but is of attempted rape. Your BT article is trash, and so I am inclined to beleive that this BT newspaper is also trash. So point to me where this 12 cases of "assault rape" comes from in dst.dk. I don't even know why I am arguing this. Who would ever beleive that there are only 12 convictions for rapes in the whole of Denmark in 1.5 years? Does Denmark has the most worthless criminal investigators in the developed world? That alone should suggest a massive amount of manipulation of data verging on the ludicrous. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Apologies to our Spanish friends, you certainly did not deserve that. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
Here is an article in a peer-reviewed journal using the term. Referencing multiple others doing the same. Your reassurance of such a concept not existing in the English language non-withstanding. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2062190/ The term is also recognised by RAINN. Page 84 contains data on the crime index. I never claimed it contained data on rape solely. That was a reply to Plansix to showcase that we could also look on other crime-data as the index is based on multiple diffent crimes from serious traffic violations to assault. You are getting increasingly hostile so have a good night. I'm leaving to do better things. To briefly sum up my original point which we have moved quite far away from: The right wing might not be all that dumb for wanting to reporting the ethnicity of the perpetrators. It can suit their message very well if they manage to control the narrative (by e.g. only allowing their own papers to report) | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On September 26 2018 03:04 Ghostcom wrote: Oh really?The 10/12 convictions were gathered by BT and is not available on dst (which I never claimed) On September 25 2018 22:48 Ghostcom wrote: It is perfectly legal in Denmark. In fact data is kept by Statistics Denmark (the governmental census bureau). EDIT: If we can extrapolate from Danish data I do not think the right-wing will really be all that surprised. The overrepresentation is actually pretty big - especially for the higher profile things such as rape, murder and gang-crime. Just to examplify: Looking through all cases through 1,5 years 10 of 12 assault rapes were committed by immigrants or their descendants in a recent review the data. Every second conviction of rape (any) had an immigrant as the perpetrator. On September 26 2018 00:05 Ghostcom wrote: Never claimed huh?https://www.bt.dk/voldtaget/unik-optaelling-10-ud-af-12-overfaldsvoldtaegter-begaas-af-indvandrere-eller And no, the expression is commonly used by Statistics Denmark in their reports (published every second year or so). It is a very well-defined term by them. Ironically whites are included (but when you look at the disaggregated data you'll notice that Asians and Whites are not really the ones inflating the numbers. It's all there on DST.dk, although they tend to update their website and shuffle the reports around quite often). On September 26 2018 03:04 Ghostcom wrote: In which the link has not a single reference to "assault rape". Why lie? Just google "stranger rape" and grab and leave? Also does not reference multiple others by sheer dint of not having any references at all! Why lie?Here is an article in a peer-reviewed journal using the term. Referencing multiple others doing the same. Your reassurance of such a concept not existing in the English language non-withstanding. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2062190/ On September 26 2018 03:04 Ghostcom wrote: Not only is whatever RAINN is, is an American helpline, not Danish legalese, it also doesn't recognise "assault rape" either: https://www.rainn.org/types-sexual-violence Why lie?The term is also recognised by RAINN. On September 26 2018 03:04 Ghostcom wrote: Not only did you quote me in the post you wrote the link to, Plansix replied after you posted the link to the report. In which you now claim was replying to. So who was you posting the link to? Why lie?Page 84 contains data on the crime index. I never claimed it contained data on rape solely. That was a reply to Plansix to showcase that we could also look on other crime-data as the index is based on multiple diffent crimes from serious traffic violations to assault. Everything you just wrote is a lie. Instead of being mystified that the rape statistic for the official Denmark Statistical Site which you initially referred to has 340 rape convictions in 2016 is magically reported as 12, you double down and randomly grab articles, none of which substantiate your claims. Why dig deeper into the hole you put yourself into. perhaps you should come to the conclusion that BT.dk is an absolutely trash news source and it shouldn't be a source of news for anybody. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24143 Posts
So that would explain how you get a conflict between the 12 "assault rapes" vs the hundreds of rapes that probably aren't immigrants. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
It is also in English, so no chance of mistranslation there. The trash BT newspaper which he linked to afterwards appears to define "assault rape" as attempted rapes that were unsuccessful, but successfully found a criminal conviction for rape. Wow! Isn't that awfully specific? Not that ghostcom will admit that either. Which without any understanding of Danish legalese, I can understand why the perpetrator would be charged with the criminal offence of rape for even if the actual act of what is commonly udnerstood to be rape did not actually occur. Unfortunately it is so obviously manipulated it must be pointed out that not only is it wilfully manipulated to paint the worst image of immigrants possible by excluding approx 539* other cases of rape, it is also obvious that it has been wilfully manipulated unless anybody beleives that there are only 12 convictions for rape in Denmark. *http://www.statbank.dk/statbank5a/default.asp?w=1920 *Living conditions => Convictions => STRAF40 Decisions by type of offence, type og decision, age and sex (1980-2017) *Rape, etc 2016 = 340 *Rape, etc 2017 = 427 Lastly lets not forget that ghostcom randomly grabbed 2 sites in which he purports to use "assault rape" but in fact does not. Do I seem like I have no patience for him? That's because he does this a lot. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt any longer. He is not a good faith actor. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24143 Posts
On September 26 2018 06:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, but you wouldn't get Ghostcom to admit that the information were totally chosen to fulfil his favoured agenda, even though it is totally obvious that it has been cherrypicked. "Assault rape" does not appear to be a Danish legal term. The Statistics Denmark (the governmental census bureau), the very site he pointed to as looking through the cases and finding 10 out of 12, in which he assures us that it is a " very well-defined term by them", has 10 separate categories for sexual offences (I'm not kidding, go look for yourself), none of which is "assault rape". It is also in English, so no chance of mistranslation there. The trash BT newspaper which he linked to afterwards appears to define "assault rape" as attempted rapes that were unsuccessful, but successfully found a criminal conviction for rape. Wow! Isn't that awfully specific? Not that ghostcom will admit that either. Which without any understanding of Danish legalese, I can understand why the perpetrator would be charged with the criminal offence of rape for even if the actual act of what is commonly udnerstood to be rape did not actually occur. Unfortunately it is so obviously manipulated it must be pointed out that not only is it wilfully manipulated to paint the worst image of immigrants possible by excluding approx 539* other cases of rape, it is also obvious that it has been wilfully manipulated unless anybody beleives that there are only 12 convictions for rape in Denmark. *http://www.statbank.dk/statbank5a/default.asp?w=1920 *Living conditions => Convictions => STRAF40 Decisions by type of offence, type og decision, age and sex (1980-2017) *Rape, etc 2016 = 340 *Rape, etc 2017 = 427 Lastly lets not forget that ghostcom randomly grabbed 2 sites in which he purports to use "assault rape" but in fact does not. Do I seem like I have no patience for him? That's because he does this a lot. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt any longer. He is not a good faith actor. If I can avoid getting overly invested I think it's best for everyone I do, but it does seem difficult to deny the statistic and presentation is intentionally and deceptively manipulative. Intended to cast a poor light on immigrants that isn't reflective of the experiences of the overwhelming majority of them or the people they interact with or rape victims/perpetrators in general. That's my observation anyway. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28873 Posts
But yes, this figure was selected because it paints a much bleaker picture (of immigrants) than the overall figure - I don't have statistics for 'all of rape' for Norway, but anecdotally I know that white guys are if anything much more likely to end up doing the far more common 'party-rape' - if nothing else because they are far more likely to be drunk at parties when they are 16-20 than what the case is for muslims. However, there's no reason to doubt Ghostcom's stories or statistics. He also didn't come out with an agenda (the only opinion he gave was that the proposed law sounded pretty terrifying); he was simply stating that in Denmark, they do keep statistics over ethnicity of criminals (it was alleged that this might not be legal in the EU, so it's obviously relevant), and these statistics show that immigrants / non-white people are very much overrepresented in various types of violent crime. (as it was alleged that right-wingers would find the relative parity of crime committed by race disappointing, also obviously relevant.) I mean, I think it's important to call out cherry-picked statistics making it seem like all rape is committed by immigrants, because it's not true, but this seems like a misunderstanding, not something Ghostcom himself was doing. He specified assault-rape, which is established terminology in Norway and Denmark. Personally, I have no problems acknowledging the truth of the statistics gathered while still being overwhelmingly pro-immigration; the statistics from denmark indicate some degree of failed integration (also true for Norway and many other countries, I'm sure), they indicate nothing about immigration being doomed from the get-go because cultures and or races cannot peacefully intermingle or about the erosion of western values. But they highlight that integration is a difficult political problem to tackle, and one that cannot possibly be tackled if one insists that 'immigration comes at no cost to society'. Acknowledging that people need some degree of help to thrive when arriving to a new country with a vastly different culture and language shouldn't be a problematic position to maintain, and I don't see the principal problem with the gathering of statistics relating to 'ethnicity and societal performance'. It's certainly true that this type of statistical gathering frequently has some nefarious intentions, and how it's being done in Austria seems to fit that mold, but this also isn't some type of law of nature. It can be used for good, too. (Not that I support the danish stance on immigration, it's much too harsh for my liking, but even then, I can still acknowledge the usefulness of the facts gathered by the Statistics Denmark. ) | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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