• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:55
CEST 19:55
KST 02:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles2[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
SC uni coach streams logging into betting site ASL20 Preliminary Maps Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 679 users

European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1096

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1413 Next
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21640 Posts
May 22 2018 22:00 GMT
#21901
On May 23 2018 06:32 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2018 05:34 Plansix wrote:
On May 23 2018 04:39 TheDwf wrote:
On May 23 2018 04:11 Plansix wrote:
On May 23 2018 03:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When the European left talks about leaving NATO it is done with the intention of assuming a position of swedish-like neutrality, not about allying with Russia instead.

Yes, but the specific instance we are discussing right now is a three day trip to Moscow in which the leader of that party announced their friendship to Russia and called for a withdrawal from NATO. Its is cool to drop out of NATO and be like Sweden. Just don’t announce the plan from the Kremlin.

Edit: Independence is a fine goal. But people are going to make some connections when someone announces friendship to Russia while also calling for the withdrawal of the alliance created to oppose Russia expansion. Observers might see that as switching allegiances.

Plansix lol, it's been years that he wants France to withdraw from NATO... He didn't suddenly find the light in Moscow. He also went there to meet an opponent who was imprisoned 4 years.

But Russia is really into US and EU elections recently, so you can understand why this is raising a few eyebrows?

The trip actually generated little comment in the French medias, the smear campaign about "Putin's man" is already a few years old.

From his own blog, what he wanted to do with the trip in Russia: (quotes in italic)

- His "political intention" was to "mark with a symbolic gesture the refusal of war and escalation with Russia".
- He was also there to celebrate the anniversary of the victory over nazis, a "way to remember the danger that far-right represents in Europe".
- "My message is that we can be friendly to Russia and the Russian people without being a partisan of the party in power"

Show nested quote +
On May 23 2018 06:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Sweden is much closer to Russia than France is.. France is not going to be invaded by any country even if they leave NATO, there really is no chance of that happening.. And like, I'm not familiar specifically with French nato opposition. But at least for the Norwegian (5-10% minority) of leftists who have wanted to leave NATO, it has always been coupled with wanting to increase focus on the UN.

Yup, same in France

point 1 and 3 require that one does not view Russia as the escalating party, which considering the Crimea is really hard to do.
Go ask Chamberlain how that worked out last time.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-23 14:13:45
May 23 2018 04:53 GMT
#21902
I can't look at events surrounding our conflict with Russia and draw the same kind of conclusions that you guys do. I see consistent diplomatic failures on our ("the West") part that led to escalation. Yes, the Russians are the ones who escalate into events that don't have our approval, but it's not as if we don't perfectly set up the scene for such an escalation. I'm not really interested in what the Russians do, because I don't expect to be able to control what other nations do, and see their actions as simply part of the puzzle of human life on Earth. In the same way that I blame Western governments for setting up the scene for global terrorism to foster (Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Mosques, Immigration, Oil, Bombing, Invasion, Regime Change, etc), it is them who set up the scene for Russia to act in the way that it does.

In the end, I just think it's very disconcerting the way the tensions have risen over the years. The way I see it, talking to Russia is basically the only way to prevent war. Each time, in the lead up to the points of conflict, the West has refused to engage with Russia in diplomatic conversation in very specific circumstances that resulted in the Russian transgressions.

Exhibit A: Senior negotiator describes rejection of alleged peace proposal in Syria – since which time tens of thousands have been killed and millions displaced. Former Finnish president and Nobel peace prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari said western powers failed to seize on the proposal.

You can argue how it wasn't an honest offer, you can argue how it wouldn't have led to peace because the rebels didn't want it. All of those arguments are moot in my eyes, as we should never push for violence where there is a chance for peace. Which is what the West did instead through the CIA training and smuggling of weapons, etc. We failed to engage in something as simple as a conversation in favor of violence. But yeah, the Russians definitely escalated when they took a hard line to support Assad. What did the Americans call it? Throwing fuel on the fire?

Exhibit B: During the summit, President Yanukovych stated that Ukraine still wanted to sign the Association Agreement but that it needed substantial financial aid to compensate it for the threatened response from Russia, and he proposed starting three-way talks between Russia, Ukraine, and the EU. The EU rejected trilateral talks.

You can make the arguments that Russia had no business involving themselves there. But they had concerns. Whether we think they're valid or not is irrelevant. They tried to raise their concerns in their crude barbaric way, and we refused to talk. You might think that is a "strong way of handling Russia", but that doesn't hold any weight in my opinion. Because refusing to talk doesn't make Russia's strategic interests go away and, as was hopefully made evident to you by their subsequent actions, they will continue to act to protect those strategic interests.

All these refusals to talk are a great way to start this kind of chaos. It is only Putin's absolutely measured and calculated response that prevents all-out war. And make no mistake, Putin's actions are responses. You see this being said constantly by experts at the Brookings Institute; Chicaco Council of Foreign Affairs, Atlantic Council, etc: "Putin is reactionary, he has no long term plans." Perhaps it is worth investigating what Putin is responding to? Imagine if some kind of Trump-ish character was leading Russia and was faced with a refusal of diplomatic engagement like this. We'd be at war by now.

You can yell all you want about how NATO is not a threat to Russia, but even Yeltsin -- who is considered the American puppet President -- opposed NATO expansion once the Russian version of the Pentagon told him the score. This leads me to believe that any leader in Russia would hold the position that Putin does now -- which means we have to live with and recognize that point of view. Just like we have to live with the point of view that Osama Bin Laden has -- and people in the region continue to have. But we live in utter denial, instead, and just pretend that the Russian point of view is simply invalid. We think our view is so superior and supreme (Europeans/Aryans/whites rule!) that we even outright deny them diplomatic conversation when they consider their security interests are under threat. It seems utterly crazy to me.

Now take the attempted murder in Britain. A terrible thing by Russia: two people were poisoned, an ex-Russian spy and his daughter. How many Russian diplomats did we expel in total across Europe? A hundred, two hundred? And that was before we even knew if the Skripals would survive. They're fine now. But the diplomats are still gone, all because two people were sick for a few weeks. This means there will be even less opportunity to talk. And every time we refuse to talk, it leads to more conflict and heightened tensions.

Sure, Russia is a nightmare to work with. They're unreliable, invade nations, kill people across the world, they're hard to make lasting deals with, they hack everything and everyone, they interfere in elections, they have a terrible farce of a democracy that results in authoritarian leaders that make war, etc. But it is possible to talk to them, so I don't think we should cut off ties with the US altogether despite all their flaws. We should engage diplomatically with Russia at every opportunity, rather than let them loose on the world without any diplomatic engagement whatsoever, which is what we seem to be doing now. Even if they force themselves in on the conversation, it is not "showing weakness" to be open to talks.

This is also why RT is important. The lines of communication need to be open at all levels. Between our governments, between our people, etc. Propaganda be damned. Because talking prevents war and resolves conflicts.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
May 23 2018 10:17 GMT
#21903
An amusing statistic: The second largest nationality group to get a German citizenship (behind the Turks, no surprise) in 2017 has been the Brits.

Turkey: 14984
UK: 7493
Poland: 6613
Italy: 4256
Rumania: 4238

Especially interesting are the British numbers if you look at the years before. 2016 only 2865 Brits got the German citizenship. 2015 only 622!

And no, this statistic is not about "ohhhh look how the UK is going down". Those few thousand have no effect. But it is still interesting what an impact such a decision can have.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17971 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-23 10:22:25
May 23 2018 10:21 GMT
#21904
On May 23 2018 19:17 mahrgell wrote:
An amusing statistic: The second largest nationality group to get a German citizenship (behind the Turks, no surprise) in 2017 has been the Brits.

Turkey: 14984
UK: 7493
Poland: 6613
Italy: 4256
Rumania: 4238

Especially interesting are the British numbers if you look at the years before. 2016 only 2865 Brits got the German citizenship. 2015 only 622!

And no, this statistic is not about "ohhhh look how the UK is going down". Those few thousand have no effect. But it is still interesting what an impact such a decision can have.

Judging by my mother (who got nationalized as Dutch last year), it's partially just a "fuck you and your stupid decision", and partially a "well, might as well get it done now after living here for 30 years anyway".

Whereas people from outside of Europe are quite impatient to become nationalized, European migrants have unlimited residency permits without the hassle of going through the bureaucracy of obtaining citizenship. If I had stayed in Brazil, I would probably eventually have requested citizenship, because some things are simply a pain in the butt as a "foreigner". In Spain, I can think of absolutely no reason to get Spanish citizenship. Despite that being a European "guideline" (similarly: I only converted my driver's license recently because my Dutch license expired, whereas you're *supposed* to obtain a local license after at most 6 months or a year).
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
May 23 2018 10:33 GMT
#21905
To aquire the German citizenship as an adult you need to live here for 7 years, or a bit less in some social cases. So yes, your observation is very true. Those arent 'fleeing' the UK, they have been here forever and just dont wanna turn full foreigner.

Also afaik there is a large number of those who still retain their British citizenship and just want to have the best of both worlds. And having an EU passport is not only convenient but also quite useful in business.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 23 2018 11:22 GMT
#21906
Some news on the social front in France:

  • As predicted + Show Spoiler +
    On March 03 2018 21:08 TheDwf wrote:
    The government used the fiasco of the orientations last summer (the system was bottled, some students had no answer until very late) to act. A few university streams were also saturated, so random draws (!) decided who was in and who remained out. Obviously having your future being decided by roll dice was unacceptable, so the government took this pretext to change everything (the government also argued that “there's too much failure in the first year of university”). The previous platform of orientation, APB, was scapegoated and replaced with ParcoursSup; but it seems that the new platform is even worse and more opaque, and will end up being a bureaucratic mess. The new system also adds an extra charge of work, but of course universities did not get any extra means to handle it.
    , the new platform of orientation for the higher education proved to be a failure. While the old system gave 76% of positive answers on the first round, the new one got only 50%, with tons of problems (e. g. you are forced to wait others' answers to know if there will be a slot for you). Yesterday, 400 000 lycéens [high school pupils] had no answer as to where they would be next year.

  • At Notre-dame-des-Landes, where people are protesting against expulsions (a project of airport was cancelled there, and now the State is bulldozing the “illegal squats” on the area), a 21 years old demonstrator got his hand ripped by a grenade. I accidentally stumbled upon a picture, and boy… He had to be amputated. They must have cut further because there was not even a part of hand left to amputate anyway. This kind of grenade had already killed a demonstrator in 2014. I let you imagine what would have happened had the grenade exploded near the guy's head or neck.

    The State communicated quickly and claimed that the wounded guy “picked up” the grenade to throw it at cops (and it exploded while in his hand). But according to people nearby, they were running away from a charge of cops, so the version of the State is “quite unlikely”. Perhaps the guy fell and then his hand got hit by the grenade. We'll see. At any rate it feels like the State is again lying to cover its ***. The press is not particularly putting this story forward, apparently being mutilated during a demonstration in France is now acceptable/standard.

    3000 of those grenades were thrown since the beginning of the operation, where up to 2500 gendarmes were mobilized to destroy a few wooden houses and huts. Hundreds of demonstrators were wounded. It's a miracle that no one died so far. The State is playing roulette with the lives of protestors to avenge itself from being defeated by an improbable coalition of bio farmers, ecologists and anarchists. It's pathetic.

  • 139k people, mostly from the public sector, demonstrated yesterday to protest against Macron's plan to cut 120k jobs, frozen wages and further precarisation of the public service.

  • For some weeks, there has been strikes in Air France (the national air company), organized by various unions. They ask to rise salaries by 6% after the company got good results this year (wages had been frozen for a few years). To break the strike, the CEO summoned an internal referendum about a pay rise inferior to what unions ask, conditioned to the results of the company. The CEO put his mandate on the line, saying that he would resign if the “no” won. The pro-business press rejoiced and predicted an easy win of the “yes” (they depicted unions as “irresponsible” and “corporatist,” putting a fragile company in danger with their demands, etc.). And then, stupor! With 80% of participation, the “no” won with 55%. The CEO resigned and the conflict is still ongoing. That was at the beginning of the month.

    Inspired by the Air France example, trade unions of the SNCF (our national railway company) organized an internal vote about the government's reform. Results were revealed this morning: with 61% of participation (out of the 146k workers, 91k voted), 95% of the railway workers voted “no” the reform. This is tantamount to the “no” getting 58% of registered voters.

    Today is the 21st day of strike of railway workers against a reform introducing concurrence, turning the status of the SNCF from a public establishment to a S.A. with capital public and suppressing their special status for future workers. The reform was approved by the Parliament in first reading and is now heading to the Senate, before coming back to the Assemblée for its definitive adoption. So far the government made zero major concession.

  • According to the INSEE, which calculates it the same way as the ILO, unemployement in France increased from 9 to 9,2% in the first 2018 trimester.

    + Show Spoiler +
    [image loading]
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
May 23 2018 11:50 GMT
#21907
Is it really worth to list all the strikes in France?
Half the year the average German is drinking in Mallorca and the average French is on strike.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 23 2018 11:58 GMT
#21908
On May 23 2018 20:50 mahrgell wrote:
Is it really worth to list all the strikes in France?
Half the year the average German is drinking in Mallorca and the average French is on strike.

- I have mentioned only 2 emblematic, nation-wide conflicts out of the dozens/hundreds of ongoing local/small strikes.
- You're free to ignore my posts if they bother you.
- Thanks for this gross display of national stereotypes.
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
May 23 2018 20:11 GMT
#21909
On May 23 2018 13:53 a_flayer wrote:
I can't look at events surrounding our conflict with Russia and draw the same kind of conclusions that you guys do. I see consistent diplomatic failures on our ("the West") part that led to escalation. Yes, the Russians are the ones who escalate into events that don't have our approval, but it's not as if we don't perfectly set up the scene for such an escalation. I'm not really interested in what the Russians do, because I don't expect to be able to control what other nations do, and see their actions as simply part of the puzzle of human life on Earth. In the same way that I blame Western governments for setting up the scene for global terrorism to foster (Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Mosques, Immigration, Oil, Bombing, Invasion, Regime Change, etc), it is them who set up the scene for Russia to act in the way that it does.

In the end, I just think it's very disconcerting the way the tensions have risen over the years. The way I see it, talking to Russia is basically the only way to prevent war. Each time, in the lead up to the points of conflict, the West has refused to engage with Russia in diplomatic conversation in very specific circumstances that resulted in the Russian transgressions.

Exhibit A: Senior negotiator describes rejection of alleged peace proposal in Syria – since which time tens of thousands have been killed and millions displaced. Former Finnish president and Nobel peace prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari said western powers failed to seize on the proposal.

You can argue how it wasn't an honest offer, you can argue how it wouldn't have led to peace because the rebels didn't want it. All of those arguments are moot in my eyes, as we should never push for violence where there is a chance for peace. Which is what the West did instead through the CIA training and smuggling of weapons, etc. We failed to engage in something as simple as a conversation in favor of violence. But yeah, the Russians definitely escalated when they took a hard line to support Assad. What did the Americans call it? Throwing fuel on the fire?

Exhibit B: During the summit, President Yanukovych stated that Ukraine still wanted to sign the Association Agreement but that it needed substantial financial aid to compensate it for the threatened response from Russia, and he proposed starting three-way talks between Russia, Ukraine, and the EU. The EU rejected trilateral talks.

You can make the arguments that Russia had no business involving themselves there. But they had concerns. Whether we think they're valid or not is irrelevant. They tried to raise their concerns in their crude barbaric way, and we refused to talk. You might think that is a "strong way of handling Russia", but that doesn't hold any weight in my opinion. Because refusing to talk doesn't make Russia's strategic interests go away and, as was hopefully made evident to you by their subsequent actions, they will continue to act to protect those strategic interests.

All these refusals to talk are a great way to start this kind of chaos. It is only Putin's absolutely measured and calculated response that prevents all-out war. And make no mistake, Putin's actions are responses. You see this being said constantly by experts at the Brookings Institute; Chicaco Council of Foreign Affairs, Atlantic Council, etc: "Putin is reactionary, he has no long term plans." Perhaps it is worth investigating what Putin is responding to? Imagine if some kind of Trump-ish character was leading Russia and was faced with a refusal of diplomatic engagement like this. We'd be at war by now.

You can yell all you want about how NATO is not a threat to Russia, but even Yeltsin -- who is considered the American puppet President -- opposed NATO expansion once the Russian version of the Pentagon told him the score. This leads me to believe that any leader in Russia would hold the position that Putin does now -- which means we have to live with and recognize that point of view. Just like we have to live with the point of view that Osama Bin Laden has -- and people in the region continue to have. But we live in utter denial, instead, and just pretend that the Russian point of view is simply invalid. We think our view is so superior and supreme (Europeans/Aryans/whites rule!) that we even outright deny them diplomatic conversation when they consider their security interests are under threat. It seems utterly crazy to me.

Now take the attempted murder in Britain. A terrible thing by Russia: two people were poisoned, an ex-Russian spy and his daughter. How many Russian diplomats did we expel in total across Europe? A hundred, two hundred? And that was before we even knew if the Skripals would survive. They're fine now. But the diplomats are still gone, all because two people were sick for a few weeks. This means there will be even less opportunity to talk. And every time we refuse to talk, it leads to more conflict and heightened tensions.

Sure, Russia is a nightmare to work with. They're unreliable, invade nations, kill people across the world, they're hard to make lasting deals with, they hack everything and everyone, they interfere in elections, they have a terrible farce of a democracy that results in authoritarian leaders that make war, etc. But it is possible to talk to them, so I don't think we should cut off ties with the US altogether despite all their flaws. We should engage diplomatically with Russia at every opportunity, rather than let them loose on the world without any diplomatic engagement whatsoever, which is what we seem to be doing now. Even if they force themselves in on the conversation, it is not "showing weakness" to be open to talks.

This is also why RT is important. The lines of communication need to be open at all levels. Between our governments, between our people, etc. Propaganda be damned. Because talking prevents war and resolves conflicts.


Enjoyed the post, not so sure about this bit:

"Now take the attempted murder in Britain. A terrible thing by Russia: two people were poisoned, an ex-Russian spy and his daughter. How many Russian diplomats did we expel in total across Europe? A hundred, two hundred? And that was before we even knew if the Skripals would survive. They're fine now. But the diplomats are still gone, all because two people were sick for a few weeks. This means there will be even less opportunity to talk. And every time we refuse to talk, it leads to more conflict and heightened tensions."

It was an attempted murder with a nerve agent in a public space. The first policeman on the scene got sick. If it was a British chemist that did it it would have been a big fucking deal and anyone caught would have the book thrown at them, and rightly so. Let's not create sentences where the crime is elided eh?

You don't need to downplay the seriousness of the event to attack the crack handed response. The leaping to conclusions, the Putin fetish, the diplomatic amateur hour are, in fact, all the more worthy of contempt because of the seriousness of the crime.

Plus you've got the missing background. Turns out that if you launder billions over decades for the Russian mafia some less wonderful crime comes with.

But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 24 2018 09:20 GMT
#21910
Centrists Are the Most Hostile to Democracy, Not Extremists

The warning signs are flashing red: Democracy is under threat. Across Europe and North America, candidates are more authoritarian, party systems are more volatile, and citizens are more hostile to the norms and institutions of liberal democracy.

These trends have prompted a major debate between those who view political discontent as economic, cultural or generational in origin. But all of these explanations share one basic assumption: The threat is coming from the political extremes.

On the right, ethno-nationalists and libertarians are accused of supporting fascist politics; on the left, campus radicals and the so-called antifa movement are accused of betraying liberal principles. Across the board, the assumption is that radical views go hand in hand with support for authoritarianism, while moderation suggests a more committed approach to the democratic process.

Is it true?

Maybe not. My research suggests that across Europe and North America, centrists are the least supportive of democracy, the least committed to its institutions and the most supportive of authoritarianism.

(...)

Source

Must read
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23170 Posts
May 24 2018 09:37 GMT
#21911
On May 24 2018 18:20 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
Centrists Are the Most Hostile to Democracy, Not Extremists

The warning signs are flashing red: Democracy is under threat. Across Europe and North America, candidates are more authoritarian, party systems are more volatile, and citizens are more hostile to the norms and institutions of liberal democracy.

These trends have prompted a major debate between those who view political discontent as economic, cultural or generational in origin. But all of these explanations share one basic assumption: The threat is coming from the political extremes.

On the right, ethno-nationalists and libertarians are accused of supporting fascist politics; on the left, campus radicals and the so-called antifa movement are accused of betraying liberal principles. Across the board, the assumption is that radical views go hand in hand with support for authoritarianism, while moderation suggests a more committed approach to the democratic process.

Is it true?

Maybe not. My research suggests that across Europe and North America, centrists are the least supportive of democracy, the least committed to its institutions and the most supportive of authoritarianism.

(...)

Source

Must read


I just read this and I would have been shocked about 2 years ago, but now, I'm not really that surprised. I didn't realize it was so similar across much of Europe as well. I imagine people are going to pick the data to death, but I found it interesting nonetheless.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 12:33:11
May 24 2018 11:38 GMT
#21912
On May 24 2018 18:20 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
Centrists Are the Most Hostile to Democracy, Not Extremists

The warning signs are flashing red: Democracy is under threat. Across Europe and North America, candidates are more authoritarian, party systems are more volatile, and citizens are more hostile to the norms and institutions of liberal democracy.

These trends have prompted a major debate between those who view political discontent as economic, cultural or generational in origin. But all of these explanations share one basic assumption: The threat is coming from the political extremes.

On the right, ethno-nationalists and libertarians are accused of supporting fascist politics; on the left, campus radicals and the so-called antifa movement are accused of betraying liberal principles. Across the board, the assumption is that radical views go hand in hand with support for authoritarianism, while moderation suggests a more committed approach to the democratic process.

Is it true?

Maybe not. My research suggests that across Europe and North America, centrists are the least supportive of democracy, the least committed to its institutions and the most supportive of authoritarianism.

(...)

Source

Must read

They will defend it, in that typical neoliberal supremacy fashion, as "centrists are the reasonable ones who see threats from both sides, hence the lack of faith in democracy". But it is no surprise to me that neoliberalism can come paired with authoritarianism. Look at the Clinton-era crime policies, look at the Macron-era "permanent state of emergency". The recent changes to referendums and the ignoring of two previous referendums in my own country - one of those about the surveillance laws. It's plain for everyone to see. But, as always, denialism. "Communists are so violent, nazis are so violent" they rambled on about in the US thread. Yeah, as if the post-colonial neoliberal terrorism (the center of which is the US foreign policy that has persisted since 1945) and environmental catastrophe (the externalized cost of which was justified in part due to neoliberalism -- let the poor work for us instead of themselves!) hasn't killed/won't kill millions over the years.

I'm pretty sure, by the way, that authoritarianism comes from humans regardless of their political alignment on the left-right spectrum. Everyone's got this problem inside them to some extent, except perhaps people like Chomsky. We're just oppressing different groups of people, in the end.

Incidentally, I was reading this (old) article about the origins of "Putinism". And when I read the following passage, I kept hearing in my mind all the responses I get when I reject something that represents the status quo.

They repeat the great mantras of the era: The president is the president of “stability,” the antithesis to the era of “confusion and twilight” in the 1990s. “Stability”—the word is repeated again and again in a myriad seemingly irrelevant contexts until it echoes and tolls like a great bell and seems to mean everything good; anyone who opposes the president is an enemy of the great God of “stability.” “Effective manager,” a term quarried from Western corporate speak, is transmuted into a term to venerate the president as the most “effective manager” of all. “Effective” becomes the raison d’être for everything: Stalin was an “effective manager” who had to make sacrifices for the sake of being “effective.”

"Stick with the neoliberals, bad things will happen if you don't! Centrism is essential to stability. We had to bail out the banks, it would ruin stability if we didn't! Money is inherit in politics, don't blame them for taking it, you can't run an effective campaign with out it!" Etc.

It's just so funny. This explains so well why Putin has about 70% support in Russia's state dominated media, while neoliberals only cling to 25%-50% support in western "free media" culture. It's unfortunate they control the wealth and actual policy in the same crooked way though, despite the superficial freedom of media and politics that we enjoy here.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
May 24 2018 12:39 GMT
#21913
The official investigative team has finally confirmed that is was the Russian military that is responsible for shooting down the MH17 airliner above Ukraine. I wonder if Russia will drop the Shaggy 'It wasn't me' tactic for once.

At a press conference in The Hague on Thursday, the investigators showed photo and video evidence that they said proved they had identified the specific BUK system responsible for shooting down the plane. They said they had “legal and convincing evidence which will stand in a courtroom” that the BUK system involved came from the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade based in Kursk, in western Russia.

For the first time, the investigators appeared to confirm that the Russian military was complicit in the downing of the plane, at the very least by providing the missile system used.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/24/mh17-downed-by-russian-military-missile-system-say-investigators
Neosteel Enthusiast
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
May 24 2018 12:51 GMT
#21914
Of course Russia won't drop it, don't be silly
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9114 Posts
May 24 2018 13:01 GMT
#21915
What do you guys think of the General Data Protection Regulation? Today the company I work for had us sign that we agree to have our data used by them. I imagine online the effect will be similar to the cookies agreement popup, or just an extra line in the ToS when making accounts. It should prevent them from selling your data but we'll see how enforecable that is.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
May 24 2018 14:09 GMT
#21916
Did they give you any information on what they are using the data for, your rights of access and right to refuse withdraw consent, who to contact if you want to apply your rights, and what authority to contact in case of complaint?
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 24 2018 14:46 GMT
#21917
On May 24 2018 22:01 Dan HH wrote:
What do you guys think of the General Data Protection Regulation? Today the company I work for had us sign that we agree to have our data used by them. I imagine online the effect will be similar to the cookies agreement popup, or just an extra line in the ToS when making accounts. It should prevent them from selling your data but we'll see how enforecable that is.


Getting your agreement and informing you about using your data is only a very small part of it. Getting them to delete your data automatically or when you tell them to is the really cool part.

What's going to be interesting to watch is how many laws the oligarchic right-wing parties will pass in the next years that "force" private enterprises to store your data, so that "sadly" they must not delete it, even if you ask them to.
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9114 Posts
May 24 2018 15:53 GMT
#21918
On May 24 2018 23:09 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Did they give you any information on what they are using the data for, your rights of access and right to refuse withdraw consent, who to contact if you want to apply your rights, and what authority to contact in case of complaint?

They did provide information on basics like that, though it doesn't seem possible to not let your current/future employer use your data, which is fine. They need some personal data to comply with various labour regulations. Then there's data that isn't strictly necessary but would be a huge inconvenience to lack, which could be a deal breaker for some employers, especially for future hires. Refusing to share your IBAN is one example that comes to mind.
glenliko99
Profile Joined May 2018
1 Post
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 16:03:59
May 24 2018 16:03 GMT
#21919
Bot edit.

User was banned for this post.
JWD[9]
Profile Blog Joined November 2015
364 Posts
May 25 2018 09:51 GMT
#21920
We’re sorry. This site is temporarily unavailable.
We recognise you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore cannot grant you access at this time.

For any issues, contact us.

(403 error.)

Tried to read my newspaper while abroad (billingsgazette.com)

With the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) now legally binding, does that mean a number of websites, which reside outside the EU and don't have the traffic from EU to justify complying with it, have to be visited via proxy?
Or will this have more serious implications?
Prev 1 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1413 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RotterdaM Event
16:00
Rotti Stream Rumble 4k Edition
RotterdaM704
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 704
mouzHeroMarine 660
Hui .276
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1117
EffOrt 798
actioN 302
Stork 253
firebathero 252
Dewaltoss 68
sSak 53
sas.Sziky 45
Rock 29
yabsab 25
[ Show more ]
PianO 25
HiyA 24
Aegong 13
soO 10
Dota 2
Gorgc6318
qojqva3207
Counter-Strike
fl0m1542
zeus315
flusha176
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King166
Other Games
Beastyqt864
ceh9473
Lowko267
oskar208
KnowMe201
PGG 200
ToD149
ArmadaUGS134
B2W.Neo104
Trikslyr76
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick49116
StarCraft 2
angryscii 29
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 14
• Reevou 7
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis7845
• Jankos1605
• TFBlade1078
Other Games
• imaqtpie1081
• Shiphtur508
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 5m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
16h 5m
WardiTV European League
22h 5m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 6h
The PondCast
1d 16h
WardiTV European League
1d 18h
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.