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On March 31 2018 02:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2018 02:17 Silvanel wrote:On March 29 2018 21:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 29 2018 21:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
To be fair, there appears to be one woman in the whole of Austria that wears a burka.
What I want to know is why would you report someone to the police for wearing winter clothing? to make a point out of how stupid the law is. So if 100 peaple are caught speeding that means only 100 people own a car? Laws doesnt work like that. The goal is to prevent not to punish. By imposing fines and restrictions on the women it is attempting to protect from perceived oppression. Because nothing says liberation like the goverment dictating what cloths women can and cannot wear.
I am not discussing merits of this particular law i merly pointed out that this argument is flawed. The number of people breaking some law or rule is not correct measure of thats law efficiency.
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On March 31 2018 04:25 Simberto wrote:
The liberal standpoint is really kind of strange, though. I personally am not a big fan of burqas and the role of a woman that they symbolize. But I don't think that banning women from wearing them is a very liberal idea either. The whole thing has this giant paternalistic "white knight" flair, where men think that they just NEED to rescue the weak and oppressed women.
For any effort of women in a society becoming more equal to be authentic in any way, that effort needs to base in women from that society. Outside people may offer to help, but the initial push, in this case, needs to be coming from Muslim women, not Christian men.
Otherwise, the act is in the best case very dismissive of their own agenda (They don't know what is good for themselves, we white men need to teach them), and in the worst case just abusing them as pawns with a different goal (Doing something against Muslims in general by trying to make them as uncomfortable as possible)
I'm not really a fan of adopting the American frame of liberalism. Liberalism was never a 'choose your own adventure' thing in Europe, our German constitution quite literally describes our democracy as militant ("wehrhaft"). There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of paternalism, people really deep into religious sects aren't going to suddenly emancipate themselves out of the goodness of their hearts.
The problem is just that it's being used as a politically opportunistic tool by right-wingers to push their reactionary agenda at the moment because liberals have put too much hope into laissez-faire politics especially in the cultural sphere. I think it's quite important for liberals to take control of the cultural debate again and ensure people that values are respected, if that doesn't happen the extreme factions will continue to capitalise on it.
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Norway28785 Posts
On March 31 2018 02:17 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 21:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 29 2018 21:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
To be fair, there appears to be one woman in the whole of Austria that wears a burka.
What I want to know is why would you report someone to the police for wearing winter clothing? to make a point out of how stupid the law is. So if 100 peaple are caught speeding that means only 100 people own a car? Laws doesnt work like that. The goal is to prevent not to punish.
My understanding is that this law was kinda designed to be an anti-burqa law, but that wasn't doable from a legal standpoint. So they made a law against covering their faces in general - not caring about the fact that Switzerland is a country with cold winters, lots of mountains and a culture for skiing - which makes occasionally covering your face a good idea, nor that pretty much nobody wore burqas in the first place. So some people think it's a stupid law. These people can feel inclined to make a point out of how stupid they think the law is through reporting 'crimes' as defined by this law that everybody agrees shouldn't be criminalized, to give negative exposure to the law, hoping it might force the scrapping of it or whatever.
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Any Italian folks to comment on what's going on your country after some French customs officer performed some illegal acts on the Italian soil? I heard it's big news in Italy, here it made much less noise.
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I doubt that the motivations behind that law were specifically due to paternalism or of Christianity even if either are predominant within the legislators themselves.
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"If criminals are abusing holes in software security, then the state should do so as well!"
- Christian fascist party ("conservatives"), 2018, Austria
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Where could I read summary about how pharmacy is regulated in the EU? In specific, I'm just curious if common cold medicine has any long-term drawbacks. Probably not the best thread to ask for this, but I can't think of a better thread on TL. 
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You should look at the pamphlet that comes with the medicine. Every negative effect should be mentioned there (mandatory by law)
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That's an impossible question to answer. Health care systems in Europe are very diverse with different regulations and state involvement. It's all to a large extent publicly funded but not single payer like some people seem to think.
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Side effects are noted on the little piece of paper you get in every package, even waeksauce stuff...
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The question is if it's the complete truth (that has to be regulated). Otherwise, I can write anything on a piece of paper as well.
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If you speak german legalese, here is the complete law regarding medicines in germany:
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/amg_1976/AMG.pdf
As far as i understand it, The small paper in the package needs to contain all known side effects and interactions with other medicaments as of the current state of scientific knowledge. I don't know how exactly that is enforced (further google would probably reveal this, too), but i am pretty sure it is enforced rather strictly. I also know that actually getting medicines approved for human use involves a lot of testing.
So you can assume that what stands in the paper is actually true, but there is always the possibility of side effects that simply no one knows about as of yet.
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On April 10 2018 02:32 Simberto wrote:If you speak german legalese, here is the complete law regarding medicines in germany: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/amg_1976/AMG.pdfAs far as i understand it, The small paper in the package needs to contain all known side effects and interactions with other medicaments as of the current state of scientific knowledge. I don't know how exactly that is enforced (further google would probably reveal this, too), but i am pretty sure it is enforced rather strictly. I also know that actually getting medicines approved for human use involves a lot of testing. So you can assume that what stands in the paper is actually true, but there is always the possibility of side effects that simply no one knows about as of yet.
I had a friend back in Holland who worked for a pharmaceutical company. His job was to check every X years (at first often, and later less often) whether all the negative effects and % probability of their occurrence corresponded to doctors' reports and updated data from clinical trials using their medicine. The pharmaceutical company had to do this, because it was a legal requirement. That piece of paper is definitely *not* just some random piece of paper and if the producer knows of any harmful effects that weren't disclosed using the proper process, they can get into massive amounts of trouble (as in, not just bankrupcy, but criminal charges).
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On April 10 2018 01:23 sc-darkness wrote:The question is if it's the complete truth (that has to be regulated). Otherwise, I can write anything on a piece of paper as well.
wait what's "the complete truth" that you are talking about?
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On April 10 2018 03:27 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 01:23 sc-darkness wrote:The question is if it's the complete truth (that has to be regulated). Otherwise, I can write anything on a piece of paper as well. wait what's "the complete truth" that you are talking about?
Well, I'm a bit skeptical that pharma industry is completely honest and transparent. They may miss some details.
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On April 10 2018 05:19 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 03:27 IgnE wrote:On April 10 2018 01:23 sc-darkness wrote:The question is if it's the complete truth (that has to be regulated). Otherwise, I can write anything on a piece of paper as well. wait what's "the complete truth" that you are talking about? Well, I'm a bit skeptical that pharma industry is completely honest and transparent. They may miss some details.
can you give an example?
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On April 10 2018 05:21 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 05:19 sc-darkness wrote:On April 10 2018 03:27 IgnE wrote:On April 10 2018 01:23 sc-darkness wrote:The question is if it's the complete truth (that has to be regulated). Otherwise, I can write anything on a piece of paper as well. wait what's "the complete truth" that you are talking about? Well, I'm a bit skeptical that pharma industry is completely honest and transparent. They may miss some details. can you give an example?
No specific examples, I was wondering if instructions with medicine don't miss any short-term and long-term side effects. Since the EU likes to regulate a lot of stuff, I thought it was already done for pharmacies.
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On April 10 2018 06:11 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 05:21 IgnE wrote:On April 10 2018 05:19 sc-darkness wrote:On April 10 2018 03:27 IgnE wrote:On April 10 2018 01:23 sc-darkness wrote:The question is if it's the complete truth (that has to be regulated). Otherwise, I can write anything on a piece of paper as well. wait what's "the complete truth" that you are talking about? Well, I'm a bit skeptical that pharma industry is completely honest and transparent. They may miss some details. can you give an example? No specific examples, I was wondering if instructions with medicine don't miss any short-term and long-term side effects. Since the EU likes to regulate a lot of stuff, I thought it was already done for pharmacies.
As I said earlier. It is, and compliance is strictly enforced. At least in the Netherlands.
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On April 10 2018 05:21 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 05:19 sc-darkness wrote:On April 10 2018 03:27 IgnE wrote:On April 10 2018 01:23 sc-darkness wrote:The question is if it's the complete truth (that has to be regulated). Otherwise, I can write anything on a piece of paper as well. wait what's "the complete truth" that you are talking about? Well, I'm a bit skeptical that pharma industry is completely honest and transparent. They may miss some details. can you give an example?
Merck and the Vioxx scandal. They knew alright. And the product note is only as good as what has actually been researched. Long-term consequences can be very difficult to predict - i.e morphine is apparently slightly immunosuppressive (observed in about 7 different populations now). The product note doesn't mention this.
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On April 09 2018 21:50 sc-darkness wrote:Where could I read summary about how pharmacy is regulated in the EU? In specific, I'm just curious if common cold medicine has any long-term drawbacks. Probably not the best thread to ask for this, but I can't think of a better thread on TL.
In France, december 2017, following a report of the "agence nationale de sécurité du médicament" (ansm.sante.fr), a dozen of common cold medicines have been banned from advertizing.
The ban was not linked to long-term drawbacks, but to major drawbacks with a low probability, linked to a misuse of the products. Those drawbacks were already listed on the product description, but people tend not to take them into account when using freely available medicines. That lead to accidents when using those for more than 5 consecutive days or with a pre-existing heart condition.
Regulation forces all known drawbacks to be written on the products, companies need to update with new information and a public portal (solidarites-sante.gouv.fr) is available to report any such issues.
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