EPTProbably going to be interesting to see how the EU responds to that, their will probably need to be reforms at some point if the EU doesn't want to end up paralysed.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1073
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Probably going to be interesting to see how the EU responds to that, their will probably need to be reforms at some point if the EU doesn't want to end up paralysed. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
It's really not like Berlusconi, Juncker, Orban, Erdogan, Kurz, Spahn, Merkel, May, Rajoy, Sarkozy or any other EVP member is an improvement compared to M5S. Even just reading over this list that contains more people that should be locked up for corruption than such who don't makes me sick. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6277 Posts
On March 27 2018 06:15 Big J wrote: So what's the alternative? Cheer for one of those corrupt EVP criminals? No thanks, if the liberals and socialists can't get their shit together I rather prefer those populists over more of those politics that brought us to where we are. It's really not like Berlusconi, Juncker, Orban, Erdogan, Kurz, Spahn, Merkel, May, Rajoy, Sarkozy or any other EVP member is an improvement compared to M5S. Even just reading over this list that contains more people that should be locked up for corruption than such who don't makes me sick. Erdogan isn't part of the EPP anymore (and was only an observer member). May isn't part of it either. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On March 27 2018 06:15 Big J wrote: So what's the alternative? Cheer for one of those corrupt EVP criminals? No thanks, if the liberals and socialists can't get their shit together I rather prefer those populists over more of those politics that brought us to where we are. It's really not like Berlusconi, Juncker, Orban, Erdogan, Kurz, Spahn, Merkel, May, Rajoy, Sarkozy or any other EVP member is an improvement compared to M5S. Even just reading over this list that contains more people that should be locked up for corruption than such who don't makes me sick. Agree. And Nyxisto should respect Italian democracy more and stop talking like the EU is some sort of God-like concept. | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
On March 27 2018 08:44 Nyxisto wrote: Pretty much anyone of those people excluding Orban or Erdogan are a vast improvement over M5S, and just throwing corruption around (which is an actual offense and not just a slur) isn't exactly helpful either. The reasonable alternative would have been the centre-left coalition, which hasn't served Italy badly. I agree, unfortunately the center left - with all its shortcomings - dealt with he consequences of 15 years of Berlusconi. I think they did a reasonably good job (again, it's a large generalisation) but they are now seen as the root cause of all the unpopular actions needed to maintain Italy afloat. (I'm not a huge fan of PD - but the result of the latest Italian election is almost the worst possible to imagine). Incompetence cannot be the answer to a disliked established system. I only hope this is the time for a deep 'internal' revision of the left and centre left organizations - perhaps bring the opposition to a populist right wing government is a good occasion to rally around left politics for once (though I'm afraid the amount of damage M5s+Salvini can do is Extreme...) | ||
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Simberto
Germany11859 Posts
At worst, it disrespects italian voters, and maybe rightfully so. I can easily be unhappy with Trumps election and still in general respect US democracy. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Neither of these things is a prefeable solution. The reality is that people are free with different opinions and values. Market systems like democratic participation, free speech and liberal exchange are what determines what people consider "right" or "wrong". The current system governed by inherited wealth, massive tax privileges of what the government defines as "economically favorable", mass surveillance, an increase in majority reinforcing democratic mechanisms and supranational, but undemocratic institutions is creating its own dynamic, which is not based on the personal preferences of majorities or the spontaneously combined individual interests of the many. It is not surprising that the people are using their one chance, in which they are all equally important - the democratic vote - to try and fuck over the existing system. And I believe in many cases the outcome does represent the majority better than previous systems. That I stand on the other side on the actual topics is a different discussion, but the fact of the matter is, that just like noone else's opinion, my opinion should be more relevant. What's instead necessary is coming back to a system in which the individual is actually represented, democratically as well, if not even more importantly, economically. That the far-right wants the opposite of that is clear and frigthening. That people, even though they know and often despise that fact, are giving them their voice even more so. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
We've actually seen good progress about the former with the EU finally moving out of its slump, and the migration rates seem to fall too. So some solutions just take a while. Blame your politicians for legitimate issues you have with them, but don't just be mad at them for reasons that they're barely responsible for. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
That is pretty much in line with what I said. The control systems that should prevent these exogenous problems from flooding into the national states are not publically controllable. Either because the common people lack the market power so that any of their choices actually matter for what is being served to them as "economic fruits", or because the supranational systems are straight up undemocratic like the EU, the WTO, the Euro-zone. Or they are just completely different countries like the USA or the Middle East with different regulations, which the people obviously can't control, so they want to be allowed to shield themselves from American housing crisis or Middle Eastern wars. It is not like these are necessarily clever decision in my opinion, but they are the decision that can be arranged nationally, and that is the only system that the people are given. What you can't do is change the dogmas of the EZB or make the US, Putin and Erdogan stop murdering people in Syria through an Italian election. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZXQSezW4AASDCx.jpg) RIP | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On March 28 2018 01:42 Nyxisto wrote: The problem is that people are confused about who they are blaming for what. The two biggest reasons for concern of voters, economic hardship and migration, are not directly related to the work of the Italian government. Italy swaps their Prime Minister what feels like every other week, but that isn't going to solve any problem. The two large crises are exogenous, one still being the result of the 2008 financial meltdown and the other being the result of failed states in the ME, none of which any politician can easily wave away with the magic wand. We've actually seen good progress about the former with the EU finally moving out of its slump, and the migration rates seem to fall too. So some solutions just take a while. Blame your politicians for legitimate issues you have with them, but don't just be mad at them for reasons that they're barely responsible for. People are not confused. People see clearly the situation in the streets, in the markets, in their bank account and so on. The ones who are confused are parties like PD, who spent the last 5 years trying to push things like a Ius Soli law that the majority of Italians was against, trying to deny that importing 300,000 people of other cultures and religion without any screening at all would create problems. But it feels so amusing to see the Left crumbling to pieces and still acting like they have the moral highground. They don't. 5 stars said something very intelligent - they will vote proposals. Doesn't matter if they come from left, right, center or whatever: if they are good proposal, they will vote them. That's why I'm hoping we will have a serious control of immigration now and hopefully with some talking here and there a marijuana law could also be passed. Fun fact: this association asked to the people who voted Communist Party in 1987 who did they vote for now. Check it out, you might have a big surprise: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/hJHPZgm.jpg) | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10899 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 28 2018 22:07 SoSexy wrote: Fun fact: this association asked to the people who voted Communist Party in 1987 who did they vote for now. Check it out, you might have a big surprise: + Show Spoiler + I think you might be misplacing me on the political spectrum. I'm not a commie and I'm well aware how nationalistic they are. It honestly doesn't surprise me that many on the far-left are choosing a Euro-sceptic protest party over the centre-left. That was already apparent in a few earlier elections. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
So an Austrian magazine stressed its resources and analysed all 29 of them. 4 of the reports were due to Burkas, all of them against the same woman. The others were for the most part provocative actions or winter clothing. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 29 2018 19:52 Big J wrote: After 6 months of Burka-ban in Austria, the interior minister did not want to give a detailed analysis about the amounts of police reports, because he didn't want to stress the police resources with that workload. So an Austrian magazine stressed its resources and analysed all 29 of them. 4 of the reports were due to Burkas, all of them against the same woman. The others were for the most part provocative actions or winter clothing. So, what's the conclusion here? That the law is indeed working because burkas have stopped being worn? Or that the law isn't working because enforcement is nonexistant? | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10899 Posts
That the law is nearly completly useless because it was never a problem and instead is just annoying other people. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22410 Posts
On March 29 2018 21:36 Sbrubbles wrote: Or that Burka's weren't being worn in the first place and the entire law was a complete overreaction to xenophobic fear.So, what's the conclusion here? That the law is indeed working because burkas have stopped being worn? Or that the law isn't working because enforcement is nonexistant? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
What I want to know is why would you report someone to the police for wearing winter clothing? | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 29 2018 21:40 Velr wrote: More likely: That the law is nearly completly useless because it was never a problem and instead is just annoying other people. Sure, I agree with that. I'm not here to make a case for or against the law, I'm just saying that looking at the number and composition of police reports can tell both stories, so it doesn't necessarily imply what you're implying. | ||
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