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Agree with a lot of whats already been said.
Personally, I though the WoT series started off slow, only picking up towards the end of the book, and getting great through the next two or three books. I think it has to do, in large part, with the three central characters being together for the majority of time. That or the focus being on Rand, who seems to be the only character who ever does anything substantial. Later on, Jordan decides Rand is too interesting as well, and has him grow a strong affinity for moping around and doing jack shit.
The series loses its spark as soon as it becomes this writhing cluster-fuck of characters. Especially when he reserves huge sections of his dialogue attempting to develop idiotic characters. I hate Perrin and his feisty bitch with a passion. Matt's alright, but he's a huge pussy, and only does anything remotely cool due to his 'luck factor.' For me, SOFI worked in this regard, because from the get-go we are introduced to this method of rapid character transition. I just got too attached to Rand and some of the darker, more twisted characters, whom were focused early on only to later be completely abandoned. As soon as Jordan decides to introduce his new stylistic approach halfway through the series, have his readers plow through 100 characters just to get to one or two interesting ones, the plot suffers and the reader feels suffocated. (Side note: Personally, I feel a lot of fantasy novels attempt this and it just dilutes the story)
So in essence, nothing ever gets resolved down the road. There are too many damn side plots. Its like Jordan tried to make the series too epic and expansive. The reader loses both interest and sight of his obese vision and it all too soon turns into a quagmire of boring slop. Really frustrating.
Personally I like Gene Wolfe. I find him the most creative and expressive of the genre. His early works can be slow, but his newest stuff is really something else. I always get lost in his worlds. The Murakami of fantasy.
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I like Gene Wolfe as well. Got any good books written by him. I read the knight and the wizard and the books of the new sun. Loved them all but the new sun was better.
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I like Martin. A lot. However I believe his fantasy is not his best work. His sci-fi, his horror - they blow me away. I feel a lot of you who are younger may have never read any of his earlier work. I only first heard of George R R Martin in 1996 when I was 14 myself. But over the years I picked up some of his other novels and recently, about a year ago, I read Dreamsongs. If you haven't read it already (it was previously released as 'George R R Martin: A Retrospective' ) try finding it at your local bookstore. For any sydney fans of Martin, you can get an ultra cheap brand new copy at Basement books for $9.95.
Martin himself finds it amusing that people pigeon-hole him as a fantasy author, a sci-fi author or anything else. He has written across many genres. I think his fantasy is his weakest actually. Oh and while I'm being frank I thought the battle scenes in Song of Ice and Fire were absolutely terrible. Really surprisingly bad when the character dialogue and mood and other features were so strong. I'm not referring to any personal action scenes, but the big siege scene of the city.
Anyway yes it's a great series. But try his other work, especially if you like or don't dislike short stories. They are simply amazing 
Edit:
On May 01 2010 04:19 j4s wrote:first book is pretty good, rest are kinda average imo. + Show Spoiler +
i wish that bitch catelyn had died earlier... daenerys and the jamie were the only thing keeping me going through those painful, painful chapters
edit: didn't realize this thread was so old, whoopsie daisies
On May 01 2010 04:27 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
j4s you are an IDIOT
All the books are fucking amazing.
GET THAT FUCKING DANCE WITH DRAGONS OUT NOW MARTIN
It worries me you're so blatantly offensive Incontrol. I don't see why j4 disliking the later books warrants calling him an idiot. Seriously, I am amazed you post like this and yet moderate. I am happy to see that your moderation has been good so far. Still, these posts annoy me.
Edit 2
Read Windhaven from 1981. Co-written with Lisa Tuttle it is beautiful and very imaginative. I loved this book and although I rarely reread novels I have read this twice and would read it a third time (probably soon)
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On July 25 2010 23:27 lakrismamma wrote:
I like Gene Wolfe as well. Got any good books written by him. I read the knight and the wizard and the books of the new sun. Loved them all but the new sun was better.
I agree. Overall, the plot, setting, and dialogue of The New Sun is more mature and developed. Leagues above. I think it was his first published fling into fantasy (don't quote me), he obviously worked on it for a long time. That said, I found some parts of it too long-winded and tedious. I sort of figured The Knight series was just a fun throw-away offing he had. An idea that flowered into a full-fledged series. Really, only an extremely accomplished author can make that kind of story work. The whole thing was crisp while remaining elegant.
I actually got into Gene Wolfe when I was into this Roman/Greek legionnaire genre almost a decade ago. If you're into Greek myth/fantasy, I'd try his series Soldier of the Mist. I remember it being a good read, although as with a lot of Gene Wolfe's fantasy, it was light and targeted at young adult.
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A lot of what Subversive said is true. I read a lot of Martin books, and his non-fantasy work is as great as SOFI, if not better at some aspects. Windhaven is just great.
I also really liked his Armageddon Rag, it had a really catchy cover, which made me grab it on the shelves, and it was the first Martin book I read, so after reading through it, I went and read most of his other work.
![[image loading]](http://www.algoritam.hr/slike/proizvodi/690_3.jpg)
On the matter of covers, the Croatian localized versions of SOFI probably have the best cover of them all Esad Ribic really nailed them.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 24 2010 18:38 Eiserne wrote:
Fuck this series. Storm of Swords was awful. Such a sadistic writer. Up until the Red Wedding, the series was fantastic.
I was actually thinking the series was getting a bit tired around the first half of SoS, but I got really sucked into the awesomeness that followed the Red Wedding..from Arya to Jon on the wall to Tyrion at joffreys wedding, the whole book just grabbed me once again and made it very fresh and much more intense.
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Storm of Swords is my favorite book, ever. Hitchhiker's guide is a close 2nd, but nothing can beat that book.
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Wheel of Time is a sack of crap that I would not recommend to my worst enemy.
75% of each book is utterly useless and nothing happens. Then at the very end of the book Rand appears, does some major earth-shattering thing that could have been developed over the course of an entire novel, and then he disappears for the whole next book. Via injury, sleepyness, etc.
You reach a point where there's 3 books in a row trying to resolve the same relatively simple plot-lines.
The characters are all also completely stupid. Aka: Jordan keeps them from making obvious decisions so that the story can continue to take forever to make a point. All the "good guys" are needlessly sneaky and don't tell eachother anything, basically the only reason the "bad guys" haven't been wtfpwned in about two seconds. There are usually very very contrived reasons for this.
I'm on Knife of Dreams. Book 11. I only decided to give it a shot because the first amazon review says its the first good one in the series since book 6-- which was the last one I considered a tall worth reading.
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On July 26 2010 09:27 Ndugu wrote:
Wheel of Time is a sack of crap that I would not recommend to my worst enemy.
75% of each book is utterly useless and nothing happens. Then at the very end of the book Rand appears, does some major earth-shattering thing that could have been developed over the course of an entire novel, and then he disappears for the whole next book. Via injury, sleepyness, etc.
You reach a point where there's 3 books in a row trying to resolve the same relatively simple plot-lines.
The characters are all also completely stupid. Aka: Jordan keeps them from making obvious decisions so that the story can continue to take forever to make a point. All the "good guys" are needlessly sneaky and don't tell eachother anything, basically the only reason the "bad guys" haven't been wtfpwned in about two seconds. There are usually very very contrived reasons for this.
I'm on Knife of Dreams. Book 11. I only decided to give it a shot because the first amazon review says its the first good one in the series since book 6-- which was the last one I considered a tall worth reading.
Wow I admire your dedication. I also don't like Wheel of Time but will refrain from calling it a sack of shit only because I think others might get more out of it than I did.
It holds a special place in my memory because at 16, it was the first book I ever stopped before finishing (referring to book 1, name of which escapes me atm) [EDIT: Eye of the World?]. Before that, I had zealously plowed through even the worst novels, in some weird compulsion to never leave a book that I'd started. Jordan popped my cherry there. His book was so hard to finish that I halted abruptly some 110 pages from the end. It had been a massive slog-fest but I was eventually KO'ed and had to admit defeat. Honestly, reading his work for me, while I always felt he had amazing visual imagery that he allowed the mind to conjure, it always felt like his book was a cart being pulled along with square wheels. I guess I feel like it was the Square Wheel of Time series. It always felt so jerky and bumpy and was not a pleasant ride.
I also feel, like the poster above me that Jordan wrote one book, had a hit and then decided to drag it out over an entire life-time for all it was worth. The same could be said for Feist, who has essentually been rewriting The Rift War Trilogy for the last 25 years. However I always found Feist eminently more readable than Jordan. Still, different horses for courses as they say.
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Whoops, just hit quote instead of Edit :D
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On July 25 2010 22:04 aqui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 18:00 ShadowDrgn wrote:On July 25 2010 04:06 vica wrote:
I want to read the Wheel of Time, but I don't feel like reading a story that doesn't have a satisfying conclusion. It's like just a cliffhanger for the rest of my life. Even if another author wrote it with plans, it doesn't have the same feel. That's why I'm hoping GRRM finishes this. He also said if he dies, no one is going to finish writing it for him. >< Brandon Sanderson is a significantly better writer than Robert Jordan ever was so don't let that stop you from reading WoT. The fact that the middle books of the series constitute 3000 pages of crap should give you pause though.  Interesting, i had to stop reading Sanderson because i found it so terrible. For me it reads like it is written by a high school student who tries to be sublte and refined but isnt at all.
Which of his books did you try to read? I didn't care for Warbreaker, but the Mistborn trilogy was excellent. Elantris was pretty good too.
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I enjoyed the gathering storm more 8/9/10/11, except for the token one or two good chapters in each book.
gathering storm is nice because since the last book was split into pieces, it spends 90% of the book following TWO plotlines. Yes two, not 8,617,354.
also:
On July 26 2010 09:27 Ndugu wrote:
Wheel of Time is a sack of crap that I would not recommend to my worst enemy.
75% of each book is utterly useless and nothing happens. Then at the very end of the book Rand appears, does some major earth-shattering thing that could have been developed over the course of an entire novel, and then he disappears for the whole next book. Via injury, sleepyness, etc.
You reach a point where there's 3 books in a row trying to resolve the same relatively simple plot-lines.
The characters are all also completely stupid. Aka: Jordan keeps them from making obvious decisions so that the story can continue to take forever to make a point. All the "good guys" are needlessly sneaky and don't tell eachother anything, basically the only reason the "bad guys" haven't been wtfpwned in about two seconds. There are usually very very contrived reasons for this.
I'm on Knife of Dreams. Book 11. I only decided to give it a shot because the first amazon review says its the first good one in the series since book 6-- which was the last one I considered a tall worth reading.
Everything you said would be even more accurate if you were talking about the sword of truth. Holy fuck that series pissed me off so much... I can't believe I finished it. The last several books just kept getting worse and worse and worse and I should have just cut my losses after book three.
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the sixth book in The Sword of Truth series, faith of the fallen (i think) was amazing in my mind.
wasn't action packed but super philosophical, i also really enjoyed some of the later books in the series as well as what the main character ends up doing.
also, i don't think he's been mentioned but David Gemmell is one of my favorite fantasy writers - his 'moto', so to speak, is to create realistic characters, everything that the heroes do should be able to be done by a regular human. he doesn't have any epic series or anything but his trilogies and individual novels are amazing.
lastly, Charles de Lint is also an inspiring/creative author whose writing i feel many of you would appreciate.
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On July 27 2010 16:30 iheartpurplez wrote:
the sixth book in The Sword of Truth series, faith of the fallen (i think) was amazing in my mind.
wasn't action packed but super philosophical, i also really enjoyed some of the later books in the series as well as what the main character ends up doing.
also, i don't think he's been mentioned but David Gemmell is one of my favorite fantasy writers - his 'moto', so to speak, is to create realistic characters, everything that the heroes do should be able to be done by a regular human. he doesn't have any epic series or anything but his trilogies and individual novels are amazing.
lastly, Charles de Lint is also an inspiring/creative author whose writing i feel many of you would appreciate.
Gemmell was mentioned many times in another thread that was created by a guy asking for some good fantasy series to read. I agree wholeheartedly about Gemmell. So very sad he died. I'm liking very much the new technology that is becoming available for smokers - hopefully in 20 years we'll never have to read about great fantasy authors dying young to things like cancer : /
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This thread is funny since it starts off with all this optimism about Songs and after a while it descends into "MARTIN WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" complaint letter =P.
But really though, Songs is a good series, but I do think that a lot of people give it more praise than it deserves. Yes it is gritty, but Martin is sometimes over indulgent on this - people die left and right sometimes just for the sake of having that shock effect of a major character dying. It comes to the point where you become so reluctant to emotionally invest in new characters because there's the chance they're going to die anyway.
Yes his characters are well fleshed out, but not all of them are really that great. All the Starks for example, are pretty one dimensional. The gems are really just the Lannisters.
And yes the plot. Yes it is at times intricate and complex, but much like the "gritty effect" there are points in the plot where Martin seems to just be a little too self indulgent in making the plot as complicated as possible, putting in red herrings and avenues for future reintepretation.
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On July 29 2010 01:08 levelping wrote:
This thread is funny since it starts off with all this optimism about Songs and after a while it descends into "MARTIN WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" complaint letter =P.
But really though, Songs is a good series, but I do think that a lot of people give it more praise than it deserves. Yes it is gritty, but Martin is sometimes over indulgent on this - people die left and right sometimes just for the sake of having that shock effect of a major character dying. It comes to the point where you become so reluctant to emotionally invest in new characters because there's the chance they're going to die anyway.
Yes his characters are well fleshed out, but not all of them are really that great. All the Starks for example, are pretty one dimensional. The gems are really just the Lannisters.
And yes the plot. Yes it is at times intricate and complex, but much like the "gritty effect" there are points in the plot where Martin seems to just be a little too self indulgent in making the plot as complicated as possible, putting in red herrings and avenues for future reintepretation.
I don't agree that he puts the deaths in there for chock effects. Without them it would just take another step towards generic fantasy books were characters can walk through hell and still live. It gives it a more "realistic" and medieval atmosphere were life was hard and could end quickly. I also like the way the characters automatically don't just know how everything works and have everything figured out. If character's wasn't present in an event, they will either have to draw their own conclusion or trust other people on what have happened which creates interesting conflicts and drama that wouldn't be there otherwise. It may not be the best fantasy books I've ever read, but they have a refreshing perspective in a genre that often are very bland and generic.
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On July 29 2010 01:08 levelping wrote:
This thread is funny since it starts off with all this optimism about Songs and after a while it descends into "MARTIN WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" complaint letter =P.
But really though, Songs is a good series, but I do think that a lot of people give it more praise than it deserves. Yes it is gritty, but Martin is sometimes over indulgent on this - people die left and right sometimes just for the sake of having that shock effect of a major character dying. It comes to the point where you become so reluctant to emotionally invest in new characters because there's the chance they're going to die anyway.
Yes his characters are well fleshed out, but not all of them are really that great. All the Starks for example, are pretty one dimensional. The gems are really just the Lannisters.
And yes the plot. Yes it is at times intricate and complex, but much like the "gritty effect" there are points in the plot where Martin seems to just be a little too self indulgent in making the plot as complicated as possible, putting in red herrings and avenues for future reintepretation.
So you consider things like always knowing that the central characters will survive every situation and having plot "twists" telegraphed way in advance to be properties of superior story telling? You think it's bad that after 4 books there are tons of mysteries to think about that may never be fully resolved? Highly insulting to say an author like GRRM kills characters for simple shock effect. This isn't some Redwall kiddie book where all your favorites triumph and achieve and the details are glossed over to make everything shiny and happy in the end.
Just re-read this series over the past few weeks. My 4th re-read for the first 3, my 2nd re-read for feast. Liked feast a lot better this time around. So many rich details, truly human characters and amazing ideas.
Was just checking out the casting on GRRM's blog. Holy shit they are doing such an awesome job. Can't wait to see HBO knock this outta the park.
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On December 02 2006 09:50 KwarK wrote:
He kills the main charactors every 15 pages, then introduces a new one before setting them up to die. It's an interesting writing style. Plus hot twin incest.
Old post, but essentially why I hate/love this series. Hate it because I become attached to characters so easily... and love it because...
On July 29 2010 01:18 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2010 01:08 levelping wrote:
This thread is funny since it starts off with all this optimism about Songs and after a while it descends into "MARTIN WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" complaint letter =P.
But really though, Songs is a good series, but I do think that a lot of people give it more praise than it deserves. Yes it is gritty, but Martin is sometimes over indulgent on this - people die left and right sometimes just for the sake of having that shock effect of a major character dying. It comes to the point where you become so reluctant to emotionally invest in new characters because there's the chance they're going to die anyway.
Yes his characters are well fleshed out, but not all of them are really that great. All the Starks for example, are pretty one dimensional. The gems are really just the Lannisters.
And yes the plot. Yes it is at times intricate and complex, but much like the "gritty effect" there are points in the plot where Martin seems to just be a little too self indulgent in making the plot as complicated as possible, putting in red herrings and avenues for future reintepretation.
I don't agree that he puts the deaths in there for chock effects. Without them it would just take another step towards generic fantasy books were characters can walk through hell and still live. It gives it a more "realistic" and medieval atmosphere were life was hard and could end quickly. I also like the way the characters automatically don't just know how everything works and have everything figured out. If character's wasn't present in an event, they will either have to draw their own conclusion or trust other people on what have happened which creates interesting conflicts and drama that wouldn't be there otherwise. It may not be the best fantasy books I've ever read, but they have a refreshing perspective in a genre that often are very bland and generic.
It IS very refreshing not to have a random access miracle event occur every three seconds saving people.
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On July 29 2010 02:13 itzbrandnew wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2006 09:50 KwarK wrote:
He kills the main charactors every 15 pages, then introduces a new one before setting them up to die. It's an interesting writing style. Plus hot twin incest. Old post, but essentially why I hate/love this series. Hate it because I become attached to characters so easily... and love it because... Show nested quote +On July 29 2010 01:18 nam nam wrote:On July 29 2010 01:08 levelping wrote:
This thread is funny since it starts off with all this optimism about Songs and after a while it descends into "MARTIN WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" complaint letter =P.
But really though, Songs is a good series, but I do think that a lot of people give it more praise than it deserves. Yes it is gritty, but Martin is sometimes over indulgent on this - people die left and right sometimes just for the sake of having that shock effect of a major character dying. It comes to the point where you become so reluctant to emotionally invest in new characters because there's the chance they're going to die anyway.
Yes his characters are well fleshed out, but not all of them are really that great. All the Starks for example, are pretty one dimensional. The gems are really just the Lannisters.
And yes the plot. Yes it is at times intricate and complex, but much like the "gritty effect" there are points in the plot where Martin seems to just be a little too self indulgent in making the plot as complicated as possible, putting in red herrings and avenues for future reintepretation.
I don't agree that he puts the deaths in there for chock effects. Without them it would just take another step towards generic fantasy books were characters can walk through hell and still live. It gives it a more "realistic" and medieval atmosphere were life was hard and could end quickly. I also like the way the characters automatically don't just know how everything works and have everything figured out. If character's wasn't present in an event, they will either have to draw their own conclusion or trust other people on what have happened which creates interesting conflicts and drama that wouldn't be there otherwise. It may not be the best fantasy books I've ever read, but they have a refreshing perspective in a genre that often are very bland and generic. It IS very refreshing not to have a random access miracle event occur every three seconds saving people.
Yeah but the Red Wedding  the friggin red wedding..
ok ok
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Wow I hate seeing fans get so pissed off at criticism. Look, you can love the books and series it doesn't mean everyone else will. This post
On July 29 2010 01:08 levelping wrote:
This thread is funny since it starts off with all this optimism about Songs and after a while it descends into "MARTIN WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" complaint letter =P.
But really though, Songs is a good series, but I do think that a lot of people give it more praise than it deserves. Yes it is gritty, but Martin is sometimes over indulgent on this - people die left and right sometimes just for the sake of having that shock effect of a major character dying. It comes to the point where you become so reluctant to emotionally invest in new characters because there's the chance they're going to die anyway.
Yes his characters are well fleshed out, but not all of them are really that great. All the Starks for example, are pretty one dimensional. The gems are really just the Lannisters.
And yes the plot. Yes it is at times intricate and complex, but much like the "gritty effect" there are points in the plot where Martin seems to just be a little too self indulgent in making the plot as complicated as possible, putting in red herrings and avenues for future reintepretation.
was barely critical in my opinion. I can see where he's coming from. My own criticism is that it feels like Martin doesn't even know where he's going with this story. He's created this gargantuan beast with so many twists and sub-plots and then he just downs tool and barely writes anything for years. As someone who started this early on and found it fascinating I now have serious doubts. And it's not like Martin looks like a slim and healthy man. He could easily kark it before he finishes this mammoth series.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.algoritam.hr/slike/proizvodi/67501_3.jpg)
