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In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards. Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread. Updated policy on aggressive posting and insults. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:21 jcarlsoniv wrote: Could anyone give me a quick rundown of what "false flag" is? You create an incident to give you reason/excuse to do something you previously did not have support or could not do beforehand. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:21 jcarlsoniv wrote: Could anyone give me a quick rundown of what "false flag" is? When you do something horrible and blame it on your enemy to gain support from the international community or wider support in your own country. | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
Tomorrow we will hear their statement that "our BUK missile systems were elsewhere during malaysia plane crash " | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So rebels are deleting all mention of Russian supplying them with AA systems etc. They are not rocket scientist are they. Its not like people can't just pull them up from their browser history or cashe. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:23 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Tomorrow we will hear their statement that "our BUK missile systems were elsewhere during malaysia plane crash " I wouldnt be surprised if they ship them back to russia and claim they never had any to begin with. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:21 jcarlsoniv wrote: Could anyone give me a quick rundown of what "false flag" is? The reason it's called that is because you are committing such acts not under your own flag, but under a false flag (be that of an enemy or a third party). | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:23 Plansix wrote: They are not rocket scientist are they. Its not like people can't just pull them up from their browser history or cashe. That's something that only russophobes do. If you take screenshots of an article and it gets taken down, then it never existed and you're "manufacturing propoganda". | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:15 Nyxisto wrote: because your post is idiotic. The rebels have motiv to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft. We have social media proof of a rebel leader claiming to have exactly done that. Because the rebels are bloody idiots they hit a civil plane without even noticing it. No one here besides zeo is agreeing with your narrative. So I found it 29.06.2014 http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2279-voyna-na-yugo-vostoke-onlayn-28062014-hronika-sobytiy-post-obnovlyaetsya9.html + Show Spoiler + пресс-центра так называемой "АТО" Алексей Дмитрашковский подтвердил, что в потерянной хунтой воинской части зенитно-ракетного полка ПВО № А-1402 находится зенитный ракетный комплекс «Бук». «Но он нерабочий. Остальные, которые работают, находятся на других стратегических объектах», - заметил он. На вопрос, могут ли ополченцы его починить, Дмитрашковський сказал: «Я не думаю, что это им нужно». Rough google translate press center of so-called "ATO" Alexei Dmitrashkovsky confirmed that lost military junta of the anti-missile defense regiment number is A-1402 anti-aircraft missile system "Buk". "But it is junk. The rest of that work are on other strategic sites, "- he said. On the question of whether the militia fix it, Dmitrashkovsky said: "I do not think they need it." Interesting story don't you think? At a press conference from 29.06.2014 (after the capture of the BUK missiles) ATO officials (Kiev military) stated that BUK systems had indeed been captured but they were nothing more than junk. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:21 jcarlsoniv wrote: Could anyone give me a quick rundown of what "false flag" is? Fantasies people have that governments attack their own citizens or soldiers for some gain. The amount of times it has actually happened is very small (like single-digits in the modern era and not much more frequent before that) but some people believe it goes on all the time. It's very unlikely that the truth will ever be known, Ukraine will say separatists or Russia did it, they'll say Ukraine did it, the black boxes will be taken to Russia and Russia will say analysis proves Ukraine did it but no independent analysts will be allowed to examine the black box data. Unless it actually does prove that Ukraine did it then Russia will invite any investigator who wants to come to Moscow to have a look-see. The chance of finding out for sure what happened is pretty low absent a confession from one side or the other saying "yeah actually we did do it [insert excuse here]". Separatists saying yay we just shot down a plane is strong circumstantial evidence but it doesn't actually prove anything. Interesting story don't you think? At a press conference from 29.06.2014 (after the capture of the GUK missiles) ATO officials (Kiev military) stated that BUK systems had indeed been captured but they were nothing more than junk. Ukraine has an interest in trying to create the impression that most of the equipment the rebels have seized is broken and worthless. Nevertheless the rebels have still been able to shoot down Ukrainian military planes. They are obviously getting effective anti-air systems from somewhere. Doesn't prove they shot down the passenger liner but arguing over whether this particular system was junk or not is a red herring. | ||
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skaffaNL
Netherlands55 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote: Would the NATO have mandate to interfere here? They won't do anything if Russia keeps supporting the Ukrainian rebels. | ||
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Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote: Would the NATO have mandate to interfere here? If they chose to see it as an attack by an nation on a NATO partner then yes. But it's very hard to see it as a deliberate attack, or to see the rebels as a nation. | ||
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3Form
United Kingdom389 Posts
Because afaik (and I know very little) the radar systems would pick up a contact, and it would be up to the operator to assess what this contact was. Typically, a large contact travelling relatively slowly at high altitude is likely to be an airliner, whereas -say - a smaller contact travelling fast at low altitude is very unlikely to be an airliner. So in the first situation any decent military would attempt to identify the contact if in any doubt, possibly by sending aircraft to intercept or at least get close enough to (I assume) receive transmissions from the transponder. And passenger planes don't just suddenly stop flying because of a limited conflict. Time is money. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:26 DeepElemBlues wrote: Fantasies people have that governments attack their own citizens or soldiers for some gain. The amount of times it has actually happened is very small (like single-digits in the modern era and not much more frequent before that) but some people believe it goes on all the time. It's very unlikely that the truth will ever be known, Ukraine will say separatists or Russia did it, they'll say Ukraine did it, the black boxes will be taken to Russia and Russia will say analysis proves Ukraine did it but no independent analysts will be allowed to examine the black box data. Unless it actually does prove that Ukraine did it then Russia will invite any investigator who wants to come to Moscow to have a look-see. The chance of finding out for sure what happened is pretty low absent a confession from one side or the other saying "yeah actually we did do it [insert excuse here]". Separatists saying yay we just shot down a plane is strong circumstantial evidence but it doesn't actually prove anything. Ukraine has an interest in trying to create the impression that most of the equipment the rebels have seized is broken and worthless. Nevertheless the rebels have still been able to shoot down Ukrainian military planes. They are obviously getting effective anti-air systems from somewhere. Doesn't prove they shot down the passenger liner but arguing over whether this particular system was junk or not is a red herring. The black box doesn't mean anything here. Unless it can somehow tell the name of person who shot the rocket, it doesn't have anything anyone doesn't know yet. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:33 ahswtini wrote: If separatists are restricting access by investigators, it seems we'll never know what happened. Did someone post a source to that? I may have missed it | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:29 ragz_gt wrote: The black box doesn't mean anything here. Unless it can somehow tell the name of person who shot the rocket, it doesn't have anything anyone doesn't know yet. Except that it should contain radar data that might shed some light on the general direction the rocket came from and data on any maneuvers the pilots may have attempted to avoid it which also might shed some light on the general direction the rocket came from. Or it might not. But it isn't just a useless heap of computer. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote: Would the NATO have mandate to interfere here? Unlikely. The deadlock...and what has given Putin a decent amount of breathing room is that at the UN Security Council, Russia holds Veto power so they are unable to even send a peace keeping force. The most likely action is increased economic sanctions on Russian energy and military sectors. The problem with this is that many EU countries are DEEPLY in bed with Russia financially on these fronts - Germany receives 30% of it's natural gas from Russia.....France has massive military industry contracts with Russia (they were even doing Naval training with the Russian Navy at the peak of the Ukraine crisis). It is very easy for the US to impose sanctions because it doesn't hurt the US economy as a massive scale....What has caused the EU to be so hesitant so far has been the economic impact that hurting russia would have on EU members. Stupid grade 4 math says that is Germany loses it's gas supply from Russia, everyone in EU starts paying far higher energy prices. Its a balancing act. It's actually quite startling that the day after the US goes it alone on increased sanctions against energy and military in Russia that this event occurs - i expect Alex Jones and infowars.com are having a field day with this one tomorrow. We will have to wait to see, but these really is the crux that will push EU parliamentarians to act....They simply have to now. The blood of German and Dutch souls on the hands of Putin is an absolutely valid cause to sacrifice economically. There will be huge political pressure on the current governments in the EU from opposition to respond appropriately....Sanctions are the only real option. | ||
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entropius
United States1046 Posts
On July 18 2014 04:33 ahswtini wrote: If separatists are restricting access by investigators, it seems we'll never know what happened. They've said that if they find the black box then they'll turn it over to Moscow. I would hope that it would be considered the property of Malaysia, to do with as they choose (which is probably to turn it over to someone less biased than Russia...) | ||
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