EPTchess vs chinese chess - Page 3
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ssj100
Afghanistan320 Posts
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IIICodeIIIIIII
China1101 Posts
On October 29 2006 20:03 overuoveruoveru wrote: in pro level, u can't come back when u have a significant disadvantage in chess, but in chinese chess, there are so many special moves which can make u come back and win the game in big disadvantage. if you can easily come back from a disadvantage, it's not really a disadvantage is it? ... dork... maybe what you are trying to say is that material advantages are less pronounced in midgame in chinese chess, but are more pronounced in midgame in classical chess. yes? | ||
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ssj100
Afghanistan320 Posts
On October 30 2006 01:48 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote: all competitive sports or games are equally difficult because you are competing against another PERSON, not the fucking game. Regardless of war2, war3, starcraft, halo, chess, chinese chess, go, if you send 60 hours a week practicing and you are playing another person who practices 60 hours a week, it's gonna be hard. With that out of the way, i'd say that the differences between chinese chess and international chess is that chinese chess tends to be more tactical in nature whereas international chess has a lot more to do with maneuvering and strategies. This is because international chess has so many more pawns that tie up the game, and literally, up to half of the squares are occupied by pieces. In chinese chess, the squares are occupied by less pieces, and most of the offensive units can more around much more easily so there's more tactics involved with relatively speaking, less focus on positional variations (relative to chess). I play chess. i love when i go back to china and school all the old people who are playing chinese chess. it's too bad that people don't play it as much as they used too. in the good old days, if you're on a train, there will be people playing chess and a group watching. Now, i was on a train several times and didn't see one chess game. curse the new generation! Wow, chinese chess more tactical. I don't know much about chinese chess, but dude, go look at Mikhail Tal's best (international chess) games. Actually, you probably won't understand the depth of most of his tactics anyway, so don't worry if you can't comprehend his games fully. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1005503 Enjoy! | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On October 29 2006 17:31 haduken wrote: international cheese is way way way more complex. Chinese chess is pretty easy so long u follow the required openings. cheese? Yeah... Cheese is like totally... Mindblowing... dude!!! | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 30 2006 01:42 ssj100 wrote: FrozenArbiter. No man, I don't think so my friend. Fischer Random Chess has 960 different starting positions, and is played like regular international chess. That is the most complex game I feel. And to be honest, International Chess is the most balanced board game of all time. Why do you think people are making a living from just playing it, computer chess programs have been developing for decades (and people are buying them). It's just like Starcraft - there are many other computer games more complex than this (like Civ 4?) but Starcraft is much more popular as it is simple enough, but complex enough to be fun and enjoyable on all levels (noob to pro). Well, maybe fischer random chess is more complex, no idea, but people are making a living playing Go, as well (in asia it's pretty big, I know korea has a TV channel dedicated to only Go, dunno about japan/china). EDIT: Although, it's strange that computers are able to beat top players at Random Chess, whereas they can't even beat amateurs in go. But, I don't know much about making programs to play a game, or about game tree complexity, or about chess/go so I'm just gonna shut up now! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_complexity Chess960 = random chess, right? Listed near the top but well below Go, however maybe what you mean when you say complexity is something else, dunno :o | ||
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One Page Memory
Bulgaria2145 Posts
On October 30 2006 01:49 ssj100 wrote: One Page Memory from Bulgaria. Are you pissed that Topalov lost? You know the better player won right? (Kramnik). Oh and Topalov lost 2 back to back games against Judit Polgar. He must be pissed himself. And tired I guess. No, I am not pissed. I state my opinion in the thread about the match. Generally I share your opinion that Kramnik is more complex player, but in some aspects Topa is better. About the losses from Polgar - I dunno, the record between two is ridiculous high in favor of Topalov. Edit: And in Bulgaria the people love Topalov, but the chess players - don't. It's typical bulgarian, but it's also frustrating when all the funds go to one man, even world champion, and the clubs gets none. Do you want to know how much my club is getting from the goverment/bulgarian chess association? About 400 USD per year. Fair enough? | ||
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ssj100
Afghanistan320 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Get's freaking complicated b/c you can re-use pieces that you have taken from your opponent and place them anywhere on the board. (cant put two pawns on teh same column tho) All pieces get a "promotion" when reaching the last 3 rows. It's an interesting game. Used to play it a little when I was like 12 years old. ![[image loading]](http://www.chessvariants.com/shogi.dir/shogiban.gif) ![[image loading]](http://computer-shogi-live.cocolog-nifty.com/photos/uncategorized/7_ryubona_138.gif) | ||
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Abang_Zealot
Indonesia866 Posts
http://www.fdaw.unimaas.nl/education/4.2ZT/Literature/GamesSolved.pdf | ||
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Abang_Zealot
Indonesia866 Posts
And if Wikipedia is correct, they have also nearly cracked chess and checkers? Although I'm not sure they'll be able to finish their analysis with current computing power =P | ||
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LeoTheLion
China958 Posts
And no, Chinese chess is not as drawish at the GM level. It's actually much livelier than international chess. | ||
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LeoTheLion
China958 Posts
http://www.geocities.com/yccheok/collections/gamez1.html | ||
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LeoTheLion
China958 Posts
On October 30 2006 01:52 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote: if you can easily come back from a disadvantage, it's not really a disadvantage is it? ... dork... maybe what you are trying to say is that material advantages are less pronounced in midgame in chinese chess, but are more pronounced in midgame in classical chess. yes? I would call being down a chariot and a cannon a pretty big disadvantage. | ||
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larra
Germany44 Posts
Imo, chess is more complex but people played it too much and turn it into a tree of best moves. At pro level, all player choose positional style, in the beginning one player has a little positional advantage, then it grows bigger, then turn into one pawn advantage, then endgame. Thats why nowaday we only see beautiful gambit and attack in chinese chess. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 30 2006 06:34 larra wrote: I´ve played all kind of chess for a long time (>10 years)and I think Go is the most complicate board game. Chess program Deep Fritz (1 dvd) already beat any human but a best Go program can not defeat 3 dan players (9 dan is the highest rank.) Imo, chess is more complex but people played it too much and turn it into a tree of best moves. At pro level, all player choose positional style, in the beginning one player has a little positional advantage, then it grows bigger, then turn into one pawn advantage, then endgame. Thats why nowaday we only see beautiful gambit and attack in chinese chess. One of the early drivers of computer go research was the Ing Prize, a relatively large money award sponsored by Taiwanese computer magnate Ing Chang-ki of Acer, offered annually between 1985 and 2000 at the World Computer Go Congress (or Ing Cup). The winner of this tournament was allowed to challenge young professionals at a handicap in a short match. If the computer won the match, the prize was awarded and a new prize announced: a larger prize for beating the professionals at a lesser handicap. The series of Ing prizes was set to expire either 1) in the year 2000 or 2) when a program could beat a 1-dan professional at no handicap for 40,000,000 NT dollars. The last winner was Handtalk in 1997, claiming 250,000 NT dollars for winning an 11-stone handicap match against three 8-9 year old professionals. At the time the prize expired in 2000, the unclaimed prize was 550,000 NT dollars for winning a 9-stone handicap match.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Go#Competitions_among_computer_Go_programs EDIT: Well worth the read: http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~mechner/compgo/sciences/ | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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miyavi
Canada245 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On October 30 2006 02:27 thedeadhaji wrote: Shogi: Japanese Chess Get's freaking complicated b/c you can re-use pieces that you have taken from your opponent and place them anywhere on the board. (cant put two pawns on teh same column tho) All pieces get a "promotion" when reaching the last 3 rows. It's an interesting game. Used to play it a little when I was like 12 years old. that looks like a mix of chinese and international chess. lol... but u guys have to name all the pieces with two characters dont u. | ||
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IIICodeIIIIIII
China1101 Posts
On October 30 2006 01:53 ssj100 wrote: Wow, chinese chess more tactical. I don't know much about chinese chess, but dude, go look at Mikhail Tal's best (international chess) games. Actually, you probably won't understand the depth of most of his tactics anyway, so don't worry if you can't comprehend his games fully. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1005503 Enjoy! omg you dumb fart. you are trying to troll me? Are you completely stupid? There are so many reasons that you didn't even think about. Don't Mikhail Tal me. Why don't you shove him up your pink little ass (refering to the donkey if Mani is reading this) (I support donkey rights). Take any classical chess opening. In the beginning, it's RELATIVELY more strategic position based. When more and more pieces are traded off and both side make commitments, the strategy transitions into tactics when there are fewer and fewer pieces on the board. so take classical chess with 32 pieces on the board, take off 16 of those pieces. of the 16 pieces left, say that half of them can't even move across the board. Essentially, you'll have 8 "mobile" pieces which is essentially chinese chess. So basically, chinese chess STARTS the game in the endgame relative to classical chess. now don't try to argue that the endgame has more strategy RELATIVE to the opening. yes, you said you don't know much about chinese chess. Don't BS me when you don't know what you're talking about. Secondly, I did mention that difficulty of ANY competative game/sport is equal because you are competing against another person, not the game. If you are competing against other people around your skill level as is often the case, then the only constant in the difficulty of the people you are competing against IS YOURSELF. lets then conclude that in competative games, true masters of competition understand that the greatest obstacle to victory that demands to be understood is THEIR SELVES. lets say that your skill level is denoted by constant C. lets say that the difficulty of chess is in variations denoted by V. Variations can be denoted by a mix of strategy 'S' (long term position) and tactics 'T' (short term variational analysis). This means that C = V, and V = S * T, and so C = S * T, which is translated as "the difficulty of playing a competative sport" is equal to "my skill level which determins the skill of the people i play against", and my skill level is determined by my understanding of "strategy" and "tactics". When you move from classical chess to chinese chess, C stays constant. S (strategy) decreases, therefore, T (tactics) must necessarily increase. YOU DORK on the other hand argue incessently that C can be constant while maintaining that S and T both decrease. That is pure insanity, and I don't mean the genius type. I mean the dumb type. perhaps what you are refering to is lowering the constant C and therefore, allowing both S and T to decrease at the same time. basically what this translates to is that when you are playing chinese chess, you seek out players who aren't as good as you, and so you can devote less of your skill (S * T) and still win. WHY WOULD YOU play a competative game, and only find people who are worse than you. that defeats the purpose. "Ohhhhhh, I played for cumulative 500 hours over 10 years, and this other person played cumulative 100 hours over 20 years, and I beat him. damn, i'm so gosu." Umh.. no, ur dumb. Gosu (go su o)(n) - meaning master, one who possesses understanding of all the elements of a game ""... unless refering to the one who is called ssj100, in which case it means DUMB. - sincerely, your friend Code GG, NO RE No n00bs were hurt in the production of this response, unless you are ssj100, in which case you are DUMB *(i.e., see below) ^__^***. | ||
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