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On August 08 2014 02:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 01:59 SKC wrote:On August 07 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2014 22:55 FFW_Rude wrote:On August 07 2014 22:52 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2014 22:50 FFW_Rude wrote:
So... Dailymotion or Azubu TV ? i'm starting to wonder...
Also i sued my neighboor. He put the sound of his computer too loud and i could hear music through the wall ! He didn't have a licence to broadcast. I am not an expert on copyright law, but I am pretty sure it needs to be your music and he needs to be making money off of it. Unless he is running some weird DJ system where he charges to play the music for your entire block from the roof of his house, I think he is pretty safe from liability. I don't make money on twitch vods... So... why would i be muted ? You know that on youtube i got banned because i used copyright music on a CS video ? Yeah... it was my band.... Why oh why would i be muted because i have vods with music inside... I don't make money, i'm not hurting the music industry. it's stupid when nintendo forbid to broadcast their game. It's equally stupid to do that for music... The issue isn't the broadcast, its the recording of music and making unauthorized copies. The problem for Twitch is that they are making copies of music they A) Don't own and B) don't have a license to record. Due to that, the record labels for sue them for failing to delete or police their VoD system to avoid making unauthorized copies of music Twitch does not own. The same would be true if I live broadcast a movie over twitch. I have said it before, copy right law in the US is a "protect it or lose it" system. You can't camp a copyright, you must actively defend it if people are using it without your approval. And the way copy right law works right now, the "gate keep" or owner of the system that is allowing the copyright violation can be held liable for not policing their system. That is why both Youtube and Twitch have put a system like this in place. And it will happen for any other streaming service that wants to operate in the US. They are also making images of something they don't own, and don't seem to give a fuck about that. They even basically charge for acess to material copyrighted by another company. They are not simply deleting copyrighted content, they are deleting material under free use, material from people that own the rights and material that was given permission specifically for that purpose. You can't pretend this kind of behavior is fine and makes even a minimal amount of sense. It makes total sense if someone is attempting to sue you, and if the video game companies were going to do that, they would have a long time ago. Also, they are not copying the code of the game, just an image of it being played. This is the stuff people have to deal with when you have open broadcast platforms where people can make money. Also, it is far more effective to flag everything and then sort through the claims that were done in error. Don't think that was their master plan, but it is generally better to be overly safe than not. The claims will get sorted out after the fact.
Mario, Goron, etc. are copyrighted characters. They are used by several channels, you can even pay money to have acess to it and use it yourself. That one is certainly without consent. The images from a game are also under copyright, it's not only the code.
They don't take down only material that has a claim, they take down material the developers themselfs said they should not have taken down and is free to use. If you think they intentionally wanted to mute every VOD that had videogame music (since all of them have copyrighted music in one way or another), and then sort it out, you must be insane. They clearly think some are fine, some aren't, but have absolutelly no criteria on how that works.
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On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases.
Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so.
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On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so.
No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false.
As mentioned several times, in YouTube people could have content flagged for music they created themselfs (a single person or small band).
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On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so.
Some game publishers already went public that they never signed up for any kind of service, and yet their music is in that detection database.
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On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false.
Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it?
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On August 08 2014 02:10 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:08 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 SKC wrote:On August 07 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2014 22:55 FFW_Rude wrote:On August 07 2014 22:52 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2014 22:50 FFW_Rude wrote:
So... Dailymotion or Azubu TV ? i'm starting to wonder...
Also i sued my neighboor. He put the sound of his computer too loud and i could hear music through the wall ! He didn't have a licence to broadcast. I am not an expert on copyright law, but I am pretty sure it needs to be your music and he needs to be making money off of it. Unless he is running some weird DJ system where he charges to play the music for your entire block from the roof of his house, I think he is pretty safe from liability. I don't make money on twitch vods... So... why would i be muted ? You know that on youtube i got banned because i used copyright music on a CS video ? Yeah... it was my band.... Why oh why would i be muted because i have vods with music inside... I don't make money, i'm not hurting the music industry. it's stupid when nintendo forbid to broadcast their game. It's equally stupid to do that for music... The issue isn't the broadcast, its the recording of music and making unauthorized copies. The problem for Twitch is that they are making copies of music they A) Don't own and B) don't have a license to record. Due to that, the record labels for sue them for failing to delete or police their VoD system to avoid making unauthorized copies of music Twitch does not own. The same would be true if I live broadcast a movie over twitch. I have said it before, copy right law in the US is a "protect it or lose it" system. You can't camp a copyright, you must actively defend it if people are using it without your approval. And the way copy right law works right now, the "gate keep" or owner of the system that is allowing the copyright violation can be held liable for not policing their system. That is why both Youtube and Twitch have put a system like this in place. And it will happen for any other streaming service that wants to operate in the US. They are also making images of something they don't own, and don't seem to give a fuck about that. They even basically charge for acess to material copyrighted by another company. They are not simply deleting copyrighted content, they are deleting material under free use, material from people that own the rights and material that was given permission specifically for that purpose. You can't pretend this kind of behavior is fine and makes even a minimal amount of sense. It makes total sense if someone is attempting to sue you, and if the video game companies were going to do that, they would have a long time ago. Also, they are not copying the code of the game, just an image of it being played. This is the stuff people have to deal with when you have open broadcast platforms where people can make money. Also, it is far more effective to flag everything and then sort through the claims that were done in error. Don't think that was their master plan, but it is generally better to be overly safe than not. The claims will get sorted out after the fact. Mario, Goron, etc. are copyrighted characters. They are used by several channels, you can even pay money to have acess to it and use it yourself. That one is certainly without consent. The images from a game are also under copyright, it's not only the code. They don't take down only material that has a claim, they take down material the developers themselfs said they should not have taken down and is free to use. If you think they intentionally wanted to mute every VOD that had videogame music (since all of them have copyrighted music in one way or another), and then sort it out, you must be insane. They clearly think some are fine, some aren't, but have absolutelly no criteria on how that works.
Yes, but Video game publishers don't care that much(well Nintendo might, but that has yet to be seen). The rest of the stuff might might be a mistake or just a really overly zealous system they put in place due to the threat of a lawsuit. You don't put a system like this in place because you want to, you do it because you are forced to.
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On August 08 2014 02:18 Broodwurst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false. Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it?
Noone really knows how it works I think. I doubt someone pretended to be representing the company and asked the material to be flagged. They just flag a lot of stuff they shouldn't, and that's more of an issue between Twitch/YouTube and the channel than the developers and Twitch/YT
On August 08 2014 02:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:10 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:08 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 SKC wrote:On August 07 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2014 22:55 FFW_Rude wrote:On August 07 2014 22:52 Plansix wrote:On August 07 2014 22:50 FFW_Rude wrote:
So... Dailymotion or Azubu TV ? i'm starting to wonder...
Also i sued my neighboor. He put the sound of his computer too loud and i could hear music through the wall ! He didn't have a licence to broadcast. I am not an expert on copyright law, but I am pretty sure it needs to be your music and he needs to be making money off of it. Unless he is running some weird DJ system where he charges to play the music for your entire block from the roof of his house, I think he is pretty safe from liability. I don't make money on twitch vods... So... why would i be muted ? You know that on youtube i got banned because i used copyright music on a CS video ? Yeah... it was my band.... Why oh why would i be muted because i have vods with music inside... I don't make money, i'm not hurting the music industry. it's stupid when nintendo forbid to broadcast their game. It's equally stupid to do that for music... The issue isn't the broadcast, its the recording of music and making unauthorized copies. The problem for Twitch is that they are making copies of music they A) Don't own and B) don't have a license to record. Due to that, the record labels for sue them for failing to delete or police their VoD system to avoid making unauthorized copies of music Twitch does not own. The same would be true if I live broadcast a movie over twitch. I have said it before, copy right law in the US is a "protect it or lose it" system. You can't camp a copyright, you must actively defend it if people are using it without your approval. And the way copy right law works right now, the "gate keep" or owner of the system that is allowing the copyright violation can be held liable for not policing their system. That is why both Youtube and Twitch have put a system like this in place. And it will happen for any other streaming service that wants to operate in the US. They are also making images of something they don't own, and don't seem to give a fuck about that. They even basically charge for acess to material copyrighted by another company. They are not simply deleting copyrighted content, they are deleting material under free use, material from people that own the rights and material that was given permission specifically for that purpose. You can't pretend this kind of behavior is fine and makes even a minimal amount of sense. It makes total sense if someone is attempting to sue you, and if the video game companies were going to do that, they would have a long time ago. Also, they are not copying the code of the game, just an image of it being played. This is the stuff people have to deal with when you have open broadcast platforms where people can make money. Also, it is far more effective to flag everything and then sort through the claims that were done in error. Don't think that was their master plan, but it is generally better to be overly safe than not. The claims will get sorted out after the fact. Mario, Goron, etc. are copyrighted characters. They are used by several channels, you can even pay money to have acess to it and use it yourself. That one is certainly without consent. The images from a game are also under copyright, it's not only the code. They don't take down only material that has a claim, they take down material the developers themselfs said they should not have taken down and is free to use. If you think they intentionally wanted to mute every VOD that had videogame music (since all of them have copyrighted music in one way or another), and then sort it out, you must be insane. They clearly think some are fine, some aren't, but have absolutelly no criteria on how that works. Yes, but Video game publishers don't care that much(well Nintendo might, but that has yet to be seen). The rest of the stuff might might be a mistake or just a really overly zealous system they put in place due to the threat of a lawsuit. You don't put a system like this in place because you want to, you do it because you are forced to.
That's just like, your opinion man.
There's no evidence Twitch was forced to use this service. There are several degrees or content protection. You can be more zealous, you can be almost crazy paranoid, you can be far more relaxed. Games with extreme DRM have received a ton of shit for ages, and they were not forced to do it. Other systems of DRM have been praised as revolutionary. This is one case of DRM being done in a terrible fashion.
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On August 08 2014 02:18 Broodwurst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false. Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it?
Likely no, because they would need to show they were materially harmed in some way and they are a bunch of steps removed from issues(cause it was not their stream). Also Twitch can claim it was an error made in good faith. As long as they try to correct the problem, it likely won't even be worth bringing the case.
On August 08 2014 02:21 SKC wrote:
That's just like, your opinion man.
There's no evidence Twitch was forced to use this service. There are several degrees or content protection. You can be more zealous, you can be almost crazy paranoid, you can be far more relaxed. Games with extreme DRM have received a ton of shit for ages, and they were not forced to do it. Other systems of DRM have been praised as revolutionary. This is one case of DRM being done in a terrible fashion.
YouTube did not add content ID because they wanted to. It was because movie studios and Record labels were going to sue the fuck out of them. It's well documented that record labels and movie studios were up their ass about copy right violations. And the law says that the "gate keeper" can be held liable can what happens on their service(due to court rulings on the subject). This didn't come out of no-where and its very similar to how google runs youtube.
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On August 07 2014 18:57 Spaylz wrote:
Let's get real, how popular would Darude be without Twitch? Huh?!
Darude wasn't unknown before Twitch was around
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On August 08 2014 02:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:18 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false. Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it? Likely no, because they would need to show they were materially harmed in some way and they are a bunch of steps removed from issues(cause it was not their stream). Also Twitch can claim it was an error made in good faith. As long as they try to correct the problem, it likely won't even be worth bringing the case.
I'm not talking about Twitch but in this case Audible Magic. If they have music in their database that they were never contracted to watch out for, how does that work? They would break copyright (using someone elses work without permission) and do so commercially. Interesting stuff imo.
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On August 08 2014 02:33 Broodwurst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:27 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 02:18 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false. Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it? Likely no, because they would need to show they were materially harmed in some way and they are a bunch of steps removed from issues(cause it was not their stream). Also Twitch can claim it was an error made in good faith. As long as they try to correct the problem, it likely won't even be worth bringing the case. I'm not talking about Twitch but in this case Audible Magic. If they have music in their database that they were never contracted to watch out for, how does that work? They would break copyright (using someone elses work without permission) and do so commercially. Interesting stuff imo.
Its likely just an error and the music was thought to be another song or the system malfunctioned.
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So what happens if you stream while listening to a game's OST? Let's say I want to stream Hearthstone while listening to FF9's OST. It'll still be flagged automatically, right?
Not sure how SE approaches that kind of stuff, but I can't imagine them going out of their way about it - nor any game developer.
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On August 08 2014 02:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:18 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false. Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it? Likely no, because they would need to show they were materially harmed in some way and they are a bunch of steps removed from issues(cause it was not their stream). Also Twitch can claim it was an error made in good faith. As long as they try to correct the problem, it likely won't even be worth bringing the case. Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:21 SKC wrote:
That's just like, your opinion man.
There's no evidence Twitch was forced to use this service. There are several degrees or content protection. You can be more zealous, you can be almost crazy paranoid, you can be far more relaxed. Games with extreme DRM have received a ton of shit for ages, and they were not forced to do it. Other systems of DRM have been praised as revolutionary. This is one case of DRM being done in a terrible fashion. YouTube did not add content ID because they wanted to. It was because movie studios and Record labels were going to sue the fuck out of them. It's well documented that record labels and movie studios were up their ass about copy right violations. And the law says that the "gate keeper" can be held liable can what happens on their service(due to court rulings on the subject). This didn't come out of no-where and its very similar to how google runs youtube.
The expansion from flagging content from major music producers to flag anything that sounds remotelly like music is the biggest issue. You weren't in their meetings, you do not know what YouTube had to do, you can't pretend you know they were forced to use a system that consistenly flags things incorrectly instead of something else.
Twitch is also a diferent beast than YouTube. YouTube is a lot more about putting out your own content. Twitch is about streaming somoeone else's content. Flagging everything copyrighted in a medium specifically meant to stream copyrighted content is simply dumb. You may as well remove the VOD's system, it's obvious every video has copyrighted material, that's what their site is all about. Just because record labels went after YouTube that doesn't mean game developers went after Twitch. Pirate YouTube videos are bad for music labels. Twitch is good for video game developers. It seems fairly clear that if they had the same meetings, the game developers would not require such extreme measures as the record labels did.
That would mean they were not forced into doing it. They chose to do it because it was easier than actually reaching a middle term and working out a better solution with video game developers. I believe no developer even forced out their hand, and they could have kept the old system in place.
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On August 08 2014 02:39 Spaylz wrote:
So what happens if you stream while listening to a game's OST? Let's say I want to stream Hearthstone while listening to FF9's OST. It'll still be flagged automatically, right?
Yes, precisely.
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On August 08 2014 02:39 Spaylz wrote:
So what happens if you stream while listening to a game's OST? Let's say I want to stream Hearthstone while listening to FF9's OST. It'll still be flagged automatically, right?
Not sure how SE approaches that kind of stuff, but I can't imagine them going out of their way about it - nor any game developer.
"Don’t Mix Our Materials With Those of Other Publishers: This confuses ownership and gets very messy."
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=9305
or
not to play FFXIV music alone (i.e., without accompanying gameplay footage), or with third party content;
http://support.eu.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=5383&la=2&tag=authc
So...if they find you they'll probably kill you....r video 
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On August 08 2014 02:41 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:27 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 02:18 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false. Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it? Likely no, because they would need to show they were materially harmed in some way and they are a bunch of steps removed from issues(cause it was not their stream). Also Twitch can claim it was an error made in good faith. As long as they try to correct the problem, it likely won't even be worth bringing the case. On August 08 2014 02:21 SKC wrote:
That's just like, your opinion man.
There's no evidence Twitch was forced to use this service. There are several degrees or content protection. You can be more zealous, you can be almost crazy paranoid, you can be far more relaxed. Games with extreme DRM have received a ton of shit for ages, and they were not forced to do it. Other systems of DRM have been praised as revolutionary. This is one case of DRM being done in a terrible fashion. YouTube did not add content ID because they wanted to. It was because movie studios and Record labels were going to sue the fuck out of them. It's well documented that record labels and movie studios were up their ass about copy right violations. And the law says that the "gate keeper" can be held liable can what happens on their service(due to court rulings on the subject). This didn't come out of no-where and its very similar to how google runs youtube. The expansion for flagging content from major music producers to flag anything that sounds remotelly like music is the biggest issue. You weren't in their meetings, you do not know what YouTube had to do, you can't pretend you know they were forced to use a system that consistenly flags things incorrectly instead of something else. Twitch is also a diferent beast than YouTube. YouTube is a lot more about putting out your own content. Twitch is about streaming somoeone else's content. Flagging everything copyrighted in a medium specifically meant to stream copyrighted content is simply dumb. You may as well remove the VOD's system, it's obvious every video has copyrighted material, that's what their site is all about. Just because record labels went after YouTube that doesn't mean game developers went after Twitch. Pirate YouTube videos are bad for music labels. Twitch is good for video game developers. It seems fairly clear that if they had the same meetings, the game developers would not require such extreme measures as the record labels did. That would mean they were not forced into doing it. They chose to do it because it was easier than actually reaching a middle term and working out a better solution with video game developers. I believe no developer even forced out their hand, and they could have kept the old system in place.
When did I say that Game developers went after Twitch? The in game music thing is likely them just telling everyone "Hey, this system can't tell where the music is coming from, so it just scans music." That will likely get fixed as time goes on, since youtube is able to do let's plays.
And no, I was not in the room at the youtube meetings. But the creation of content ID in youtube was well reported by numerous video game and news media. It is not difficult to be knowledgeable on why the system was created.
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On August 08 2014 02:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:41 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:27 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 02:18 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:On August 08 2014 01:10 Falling wrote:
Prepare to have Twitch filled entirely with Kevin MacLeod for background music.
I don't understand why the game's ambient music would be included. That makes streaming pretty much any game untenable unless you are the sort that prefers to play gamess in dead silence... or to Kevin MacLeod's jazz. I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false. Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it? Likely no, because they would need to show they were materially harmed in some way and they are a bunch of steps removed from issues(cause it was not their stream). Also Twitch can claim it was an error made in good faith. As long as they try to correct the problem, it likely won't even be worth bringing the case. On August 08 2014 02:21 SKC wrote:
That's just like, your opinion man.
There's no evidence Twitch was forced to use this service. There are several degrees or content protection. You can be more zealous, you can be almost crazy paranoid, you can be far more relaxed. Games with extreme DRM have received a ton of shit for ages, and they were not forced to do it. Other systems of DRM have been praised as revolutionary. This is one case of DRM being done in a terrible fashion. YouTube did not add content ID because they wanted to. It was because movie studios and Record labels were going to sue the fuck out of them. It's well documented that record labels and movie studios were up their ass about copy right violations. And the law says that the "gate keeper" can be held liable can what happens on their service(due to court rulings on the subject). This didn't come out of no-where and its very similar to how google runs youtube. The expansion for flagging content from major music producers to flag anything that sounds remotelly like music is the biggest issue. You weren't in their meetings, you do not know what YouTube had to do, you can't pretend you know they were forced to use a system that consistenly flags things incorrectly instead of something else. Twitch is also a diferent beast than YouTube. YouTube is a lot more about putting out your own content. Twitch is about streaming somoeone else's content. Flagging everything copyrighted in a medium specifically meant to stream copyrighted content is simply dumb. You may as well remove the VOD's system, it's obvious every video has copyrighted material, that's what their site is all about. Just because record labels went after YouTube that doesn't mean game developers went after Twitch. Pirate YouTube videos are bad for music labels. Twitch is good for video game developers. It seems fairly clear that if they had the same meetings, the game developers would not require such extreme measures as the record labels did. That would mean they were not forced into doing it. They chose to do it because it was easier than actually reaching a middle term and working out a better solution with video game developers. I believe no developer even forced out their hand, and they could have kept the old system in place. When did I say that Game developers went after Twitch? The in game music thing is likely them just telling everyone "Hey, this system can't tell where the music is coming from, so it just scans music." That will likely get fixed as time goes on, since youtube is able to do let's plays. And no, I was not in the room at the youtube meetings. But the creation of content ID in youtube was well reported by numerous video game and news media. It is not difficult to be knowledgeable on why the system was created.
Why would Twitch be literally forced to change their system if noone went after them? Or do you think the record labels also went after Twitch?
You speak as if there were no alternatives. That is clearly not the case.
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On August 08 2014 02:48 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:47 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 02:41 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:27 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 02:18 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:15 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 02:14 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 02:05 SKC wrote:On August 08 2014 01:59 Pr0wler wrote:
And as predicted, Twitch became one boring place.
Just a question, what stops me from playing Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner ? Their music is not copyrighted. Can we have one new "High class" Twitch ? I know that the individual performances are copyrighted, but how do you actually prove who played it without some sort of investigation ? If they think the material is copyrighted they can flag it, they don't need to investigate it or prove it in any way. It's an automated service, so if the music is part of the list (or similar enough to it), your content should be muted. Probally not the case for classical music. On August 08 2014 02:05 Broodwurst wrote:On August 08 2014 01:21 Conti wrote:
[quote]
I can only see this as stupidity on twitch's part for taking a service that includes game music. If twitch's basic assumption is that game companies are okay with their games being streamed/saved, the same assumption should be made about their music. It's not exactly the fault of Twitch if a game developer says it's fine to stream their game video but it's not fine to stream their game audio. Also it wouldn't make much sense to use a content id system and then pick one that doesn't check for everything, I don't think being "a little safe" from copyright claims will cut it. They developers don't say that. At least they were proven not to have in several cases. Well someone signed the music up for that service, probably some publisher that gets paid to do so by the developers. Maybe the devs didn't think about what they signed up for, maybe the publisher just did so on his own or whatever, but somehow the music ended up in this content database, and I'm pretty sure these companies don't just add random music without being contracted to do so. No, Valve for example writes their own music and say it's free to use. Crypt of the Necrodancer, another mentioned source, writes their own music and they have no publisher and never claimed anything. It's a game made by just a few people, they know what they did. Unless a random person can do it, that's false. Surely they can then sue the content id system? I would think faking to be (representing) a copyright holder can't be legal, can it? Likely no, because they would need to show they were materially harmed in some way and they are a bunch of steps removed from issues(cause it was not their stream). Also Twitch can claim it was an error made in good faith. As long as they try to correct the problem, it likely won't even be worth bringing the case. On August 08 2014 02:21 SKC wrote:
That's just like, your opinion man.
There's no evidence Twitch was forced to use this service. There are several degrees or content protection. You can be more zealous, you can be almost crazy paranoid, you can be far more relaxed. Games with extreme DRM have received a ton of shit for ages, and they were not forced to do it. Other systems of DRM have been praised as revolutionary. This is one case of DRM being done in a terrible fashion. YouTube did not add content ID because they wanted to. It was because movie studios and Record labels were going to sue the fuck out of them. It's well documented that record labels and movie studios were up their ass about copy right violations. And the law says that the "gate keeper" can be held liable can what happens on their service(due to court rulings on the subject). This didn't come out of no-where and its very similar to how google runs youtube. The expansion for flagging content from major music producers to flag anything that sounds remotelly like music is the biggest issue. You weren't in their meetings, you do not know what YouTube had to do, you can't pretend you know they were forced to use a system that consistenly flags things incorrectly instead of something else. Twitch is also a diferent beast than YouTube. YouTube is a lot more about putting out your own content. Twitch is about streaming somoeone else's content. Flagging everything copyrighted in a medium specifically meant to stream copyrighted content is simply dumb. You may as well remove the VOD's system, it's obvious every video has copyrighted material, that's what their site is all about. Just because record labels went after YouTube that doesn't mean game developers went after Twitch. Pirate YouTube videos are bad for music labels. Twitch is good for video game developers. It seems fairly clear that if they had the same meetings, the game developers would not require such extreme measures as the record labels did. That would mean they were not forced into doing it. They chose to do it because it was easier than actually reaching a middle term and working out a better solution with video game developers. I believe no developer even forced out their hand, and they could have kept the old system in place. When did I say that Game developers went after Twitch? The in game music thing is likely them just telling everyone "Hey, this system can't tell where the music is coming from, so it just scans music." That will likely get fixed as time goes on, since youtube is able to do let's plays. And no, I was not in the room at the youtube meetings. But the creation of content ID in youtube was well reported by numerous video game and news media. It is not difficult to be knowledgeable on why the system was created. Why would Twitch be literally forced to change their system if noone went after them? Or do you think the record labels also went after Twitch? You speak as if there were no alternatives. That is clearly not the case.
Yes, they clearly are very concerned about violating copyright for music, since that is what the whole system revolves around. I am 99% sure they have been contacted by a record label or they have received cease and desist letters from them. You don't do this stuff for no reason, its because one or a number of record labels is threatening to sue you.
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On the subject:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2cwfu2/i_am_twitch_ceo_emmett_shear_ask_me_almost/cjjp083
"Game companies have the public stance (and private stance directly with Twitch) that they allow anyone to stream their games. See http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1egayn/lets_build_a_list_of_game_studios_that_allow/ for example. This isn't a fair use argument, it's a generally available license that you're taking advantage of.
Broadcasting unlicensed music in the background is not fair use either, and there is no generally available license. Therefore this is not something that we want our broadcasters to accept liability for (nor do we want to accept liability for it either).
They're completely different cases, and the logic is different in each."
And the subject of stuff being flagged incorrectly:
"regard to 2 hour chunks:
Our research prior to launching the feature indicated that almost no highlights were longer than 2 hours, and we were concerned about abuse of the tool. It's clear that we underestimated the demand and need for a solution here, and fortunately we have 3 weeks to figure one out. Expect changes here soon.
It has disproportionately large impact on certain communities (speedrunning most obviously) and we're very concerned about making sure that every community on Twitch has a good experience.
W/ regard to content id:
Hey Cosmo, I understand your feelings here. We have absolutely no intention of flagging songs due to original in-game music. If that's happening (and it appears it is), it's a problem and we will investigate and try to fix it.
W/ regards to your last question, why Twitch:
Because we care about you and your viewers, and we want every broadcaster on Twitch to be protected from potential liability. No matter how remote you might feel the issue is, we aren't willing to run the risk someone's life gets ruined over this.
PS: I don't think your VODs are being flagged right now, but I realize that doesn't help anyone else getting caught in the crossfire."
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EPT
