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On April 23 2014 19:19 -Archangel- wrote:
What I learned from this is that if people in charge tell you to trust them and do what they say during a large scale accident, you should do opposite.
Normally you should trust the professional who has far more information available and experience than yourself. Sadly in this case the person in charge was an incompetent 69 yr old part timer.
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On April 23 2014 17:45 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 13:33 Warlock40 wrote:
It's just sad, thinking about it. As the boat capsized, surely there were hundreds of people still alive, and yet trapped in compartments that were slowly running out of air and filling up with water. Meanwhile, lots of rescue crews on the outside, but nothing they can do, really, to help the people inside, who, over the course of the next few hours or even days, will die a slow death....
That's so awful. I guess that degree of helplessness, for help to be so close and yet so far away, is why people are questioning why more couldn't be done. We think we're so technologically advanced, and then something like this just goes to show the limits to what we can do. That's pretty much it, you watch movies and TV shows where problems are overcome under severe time constraints. Then rescue crews have 5+ days to work something out but can't do shit. Horrible thinking about kids waiting for rescue for days and it just wasn't coming.
Didn't think it needed to be said but there is a big difference between movies and TV shows and real life.
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On April 23 2014 19:33 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 19:19 -Archangel- wrote:
What I learned from this is that if people in charge tell you to trust them and do what they say during a large scale accident, you should do opposite.
If these passengers didn't go back to their cabins like they were told, much more of them would have survived. I hope you realize the vast majority of cases when emergency services try to coordinate disaster rescue and relief, individuals not following plans told to them can jeopardize the safety of everybody around them, and that in the vast majority of cases (accidents happen on a hourly basis around the world) following said instructions saves lives?
I am not talking about emergency services, but officers on the boat. I doubt these guys had more experience with this kind of accidents than passengers. They only should have had a training in protocols in these situations.
Personally I will rather trust myself then other people protocols. What is the worse thing it can happen? I will die either way.
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This is one of the saddest incidents that can happen. All those young high school kids, trapped in a sinking ship that's tilting and unable to escape because of following orders. They all had long lives ahead, now ended because of a man who basically ordered them to die.
I shudder to imagine the chaos and fear inside the ship, trapped with water rising and knowing your dead in a few minutes from drowning. The crew, especially the captain needs to be held accountable, the president had the right idea calling him a murderer.
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On April 23 2014 20:34 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 17:45 Scarecrow wrote:On April 23 2014 13:33 Warlock40 wrote:
It's just sad, thinking about it. As the boat capsized, surely there were hundreds of people still alive, and yet trapped in compartments that were slowly running out of air and filling up with water. Meanwhile, lots of rescue crews on the outside, but nothing they can do, really, to help the people inside, who, over the course of the next few hours or even days, will die a slow death....
That's so awful. I guess that degree of helplessness, for help to be so close and yet so far away, is why people are questioning why more couldn't be done. We think we're so technologically advanced, and then something like this just goes to show the limits to what we can do. That's pretty much it, you watch movies and TV shows where problems are overcome under severe time constraints. Then rescue crews have 5+ days to work something out but can't do shit. Horrible thinking about kids waiting for rescue for days and it just wasn't coming. Didn't think it needed to be said but there is a big difference between movies and TV shows and real life.
No shit. I was talking more about the stark contrast between our cultural idea of rescue and this helpless reality. Of course it's not like a movie but many would expect being saved by on-scene rescuers to be a race against time, not an impossibility. It's unusual for there to be a situation where people are dying nearby over the course of a week and we can't even make progress towards saving them.
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On April 23 2014 19:47 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 19:19 -Archangel- wrote:
What I learned from this is that if people in charge tell you to trust them and do what they say during a large scale accident, you should do opposite. Normally you should trust the professional who has far more information available and experience than yourself. Sadly in this case the person in charge was an incompetent 69 yr old part timer.
Yeah, normally in cases of huge tragedies, I shake my head in sadness at how our instinct to panic and run can ultimately cause the death of us - for example, reading about any kind of disaster that involves many people getting stampeded to death, I tend to think, if only those people had just followed directions and had an orderly evacuation, there wouldn't have been so many needless deaths. And yet in this case, it would appear that doing that ended up being the fatal decision.
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This is terrible and i am totally confused by what happened. They had enough time to get out on the top deck and be ready to jump in the water (if the situation would push them to it) and the fact that only 2 lifeboats out of 46 were used is just mind-boggling. Sure almost 500 people is alot, but still most of them would have much better chance of surviving if they just got to the outside of the ship.
I understand that the order was to stay in the cabin, but come on....What makes you thing it is a good idea to stay in a cabin of a sinking ship? There is not a single scenario where it would be better to stay put instead of trying to get outside.
Knowing myself i would definately say Fuck that and got the fuck out of there asap.
I fail to see any good reason for the captain to order that everyone stay put. I mean if they would say: we are experiencing some problems and there is a possibilty we will have to evacuate the ship. Everyone please grab safety vest and gather outside on the deck.
The only logical reason i see is that the captain believed until the last moment, that he will be able to recover the ship and didn't want to cause panic which just shows that his training/experience was lacking.
I think that overloading, overextending the ship's capacity, neglecting safety measures are the thing to blame for this accident. Sure the captain made bad calls and was an idiot, but i would not call him a murderer. Murder is something with intention behind it, this was a terrible accident that happened due to idiocy/inexperience/neglecting of the captain, but not intended.
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I still get this feeling of dread whenever I update myself on the news articles... What a terrible way to die. I rode my bike down to Ansan the other night... Didn't find/see the school, but I can just imagine it. My school also had field trips planned this week and last, but they've all been cancelled because no parent wants to send their child away at a time like this... especially since it's the same kind of trip that has killed all these kids. 
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On April 23 2014 23:06 Ricjames wrote:
I think that overloading, overextending the ship's capacity, neglecting safety measures are the thing to blame for this accident. Sure the captain made bad calls and was an idiot, but i would not call him a murderer. Murder is something with intention behind it, this was a terrible accident that happened due to idiocy/inexperience/neglecting of the captain, but not intended.
Murder with intention is a harsher kind of murder that you get a bigger punishment for, but you can murder people with just being stupid. Like if you fire a gun into the air, the bullet will come down somewhere and if it kills someone that is also murder even if you never met that person before.
But if you drive a car down the road and not breaking any laws, and a person runs in front of your car and you hit the person and kill it, that is not murder.
In the case of this boat tragedy, it would be murder if the captain with his actions (or lack of) caused the deaths of people. If someone fell overboard during the voyage and died that would not be a murder.
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On April 24 2014 00:11 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 23:06 Ricjames wrote:
I think that overloading, overextending the ship's capacity, neglecting safety measures are the thing to blame for this accident. Sure the captain made bad calls and was an idiot, but i would not call him a murderer. Murder is something with intention behind it, this was a terrible accident that happened due to idiocy/inexperience/neglecting of the captain, but not intended. Murder with intention is a harsher kind of murder that you get a bigger punishment for, but you can murder people with just being stupid. Like if you fire a gun into the air, the bullet will come down somewhere and if it kills someone that is also murder even if you never met that person before. But if you drive a car down the road and not breaking any laws, and a person runs in front of your car and you hit the person and kill it, that is not murder. In the case of this boat tragedy, it would be murder if the captain with his actions (or lack of) caused the deaths of people. If someone fell overboard during the voyage and died that would not be a murder.
I think it would really depend on SK's definitions of murder/manslaughter, and if they even have a distinction between the two. In the US a line exists between murder and manslaughter and that line is usually malicious intent. So in the example you provided with firing the gun in the air, it would be involuntary manslaughter in the US, rather than murder, since there was no intent.
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A lawyer can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the US it goes something like this.
Manslaughter: I did something that I didn't know could potentially kill someone and someone died.
Second Degree Murder (Murder 2): I didn't intend to kill someone, but I did something that I know could potentially kill someone and I did it anyway, someone died.
First Degree Murder (Murder 1): I fully intended to kill someone, it was premeditated, someone died.
Capital Murder: Murder 1 with another felony involved in the crime, rape, robbery, etc.
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On April 24 2014 04:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:
A lawyer can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the US it goes something like this.
Manslaughter: I did something that I didn't know could potentially kill someone and someone died.
Second Degree Murder (Murder 2): I didn't intend to kill someone, but I did something that I know could potentially kill someone and I did it anyway, someone died.
First Degree Murder (Murder 1): I fully intended to kill someone, it was premeditated, someone died.
Capital Murder: Murder 1 with another felony involved in the crime, rape, robbery, etc.
I'm no lawyer either but pretty sure second degree murder is an intentional murder as it is murder.
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I think it's like a heat of the moment thing. You killed someone but had no plan for it.
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I just canceled my cruise I had planned in a month!
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On April 24 2014 04:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:
A lawyer can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the US it goes something like this.
Manslaughter: I did something that I didn't know could potentially kill someone and someone died.
Second Degree Murder (Murder 2): I didn't intend to kill someone, but I did something that I know could potentially kill someone and I did it anyway, someone died.
First Degree Murder (Murder 1): I fully intended to kill someone, it was premeditated, someone died.
Capital Murder: Murder 1 with another felony involved in the crime, rape, robbery, etc.
Murder is killing someone when you intended to either kill someone or create a situation where someone was very likely to die (like firing a machine gun into a crowd). First degree murder is premeditated, second degree murder is spur-of-the-moment.
Manslaughter comes in two types: intentional and unintentional. Intentional manslaughter is like second-degree murder, except it is committed under conditions that would "cause a reasonable man to be emotionally or mentally disturbed." (Example: say you killed your wife during the heat of the moment after an argument. Second-degree murder. Say your caught your wife having sex with another man, then killed her. Intentional manslaughter.) Unintentional manslaughter is killing someone when you didn't intend to kill someone or create a situation where someone was very likely to die.
Just a disclaimer for anyone reading this: you may notice that there are many potential cases where a crime could be interpreted as different degrees of murder or manslaughter, depending on someone's opinion. This is intentional. The letter of the law is vague, so that the specifics can be determined through precedents set in court cases. I would assume that only SK lawyers know enough about SK laws and court cases to be able to speculate on what kind of charges the captain can potentially face.
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On April 24 2014 05:51 lantz wrote:
I just canceled my cruise I had planned in a month!
I hope it wasn't because of this because that would be irrational. Events like this are rare. Sure, we had this accident and that Italian disaster (which was an actual cruise line). Oh captain my captain. -.-
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Sweden8621 Posts
On April 24 2014 05:51 lantz wrote:
I just canceled my cruise I had planned in a month!
Because of this? That seems ridiculous. Pretty sure air and boat trips are the most safe way of transportation there is.
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On April 24 2014 05:51 lantz wrote:
I just canceled my cruise I had planned in a month!
Should cancel any flights too after the Malaysian accident or better yet not go outside cause of that guy struck by lightning.
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The more I read about this case in the Korean media the more I see the severity of negligence and lack of responsibility within the country. It's astounding how a captain could just abandon his passengers and leave them to die without even a chance to survive, and took the unsafe route for the sake of time. I hope this case really opens the eyes of Koreans about how deep this problem is rooted cause there have been other cases similar to this in the country (a Daegu subway caught fire and the conductor locked the emergency doors and fled) and I feel awful knowing the parents, family and friends of the deceased have to see their family dead all cause of a few bad people.
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On April 24 2014 08:36 PhoenixVoid wrote:
The more I read about this case in the Korean media the more I see the severity of negligence and lack of responsibility within the country.
Whoah, 1 dodgy ferry and a bad subway driver doesn`t mean you can slander an entire nation. There are incompetent cowards and dodgy companies worldwide.
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EPT
