was warned awhile ago... i looked for a thread and there was none... decided to make one for those who didn't know the tragedy that befalls on SK and the maritime laws and implications that being said, will only post news and not further aggreviate the situation
A South Korean ferry, MS Sewol was capsized on April 16, 2014. Registered passengers was said to be about 459 and most of them are students (325) were having a 4 day field trip.
As of this writing 49-58 was confirmed dead.
'Captain as must be last man of to leave on a sinking ship...' According to International Maritime Organization Law and Tradition of Stewardship does not specify that the captain should stay with his ship but states that the captain, or master, has the ultimate authority aboard his ship. Furthermore, SK's own maritime law somehow explicity says the captain should be held with grave responsibility with abandoning the boat and its passengers in a time of crisis.
If South Korea does not have its own laws that dictate a captain must stay on the ship, Joon-seok may not be charged criminally for leaving the vessel while his passengers were struggling to escape.
In all, the tradition of a captain going down with the ship may be more about personal choice and lore of the sea than legal responsibility.
Sewol's Captain:
The captain as he 'escapes' the sinking ship
“I am really sorry and deeply ashamed"
"I'm sorry, I have nothing to say," the captain said, according to South Korean TV network JTBC.
"At the time, the current was very strong, the temperature of the ocean water was cold, and I thought that if people left the ferry without (proper) judgment, if they were not wearing a life jacket, and even if they were, they would drift away and face many other difficulties," Mr Lee told reporters. "The rescue boats had not arrived yet, nor were there any civilian fishing ships or other boats nearby at that time."
Reactions of the captains actions:
"Kids were forced to stay put," one survivor told CNN affiliate YTN, "so only some of those who moved survived."
"We were told to stay where you are, so we kept staying," survivor Hyun Hung Chang told YTN. "But later on, the water level came up. So we were beside ourselves. Kids were screaming out of terror, shouting for help."
"I had to swim a bit to get to the boat to be rescued," Lim Hyung Min, one of more than 300 Seoul high school students who was aboard the ship for a four-day field trip, told CNN affiliate YTN. "The water was so cold and I wanted to live."
“Evil of the Sewol” among bloggers in South Korea
“If it becomes necessary to abandon the ship, the commanding officer should be the last person to leave.”, Mr. Werner Naval History and Heritage Command spokesman
“That guy’s an embarrassment to anybody who’s ever had command at sea, You can’t take responsibility, or say you do, for nearly 500 souls, and then be the first in the lifeboat,” said John B. Padgett III, a retired United States Navy rear admiral and former submarine captain.
Stories of heroism:
One, Park Ho-jin, 16, found a 6-year-old girl standing alone and wet on the side of the ship as it was sliding slowly into the water. She had been left there by her older brother who went back into the ship to hunt for their mother. Mr. Park swept the child into his arms and delivered her to rescuers who had pulled a boat alongside the ship. Mr. Park made it onto a later rescue boat.
Jung Cha Woong was a 17-year old student who took off his own life jacket and gave it to his friend. He was a 3rd level “gumdo” athlete.
Park Ji-young, 22, had helped teenagers to get life jackets and escape by urging them to jump into the frigid waters of the Yellow Sea where rescue boats were waiting. She stayed behind without a life jacket for herself despite the youngsters’ entreaties to jump with them. “After saving you, I will get out,” she said. “The crew goes out last.”
Surprised it took this long for someone to post a thread like this.
The captain, geezus, the captain. If I had been at the helm and started screaming into the intercom when the ship first started listing:
"The ship is sinking! Aaaaaarrrggggh!!!! Everyone grab a life jacket and get off the boat now or die! Everyone for himself! Waaaaaugh! (Panic, Panic, Panic).
You don't have to do that old "captain goes down with his ship tradition", but that dude totally bailed and was self-ish as fuck. There was a pretty small percentage confirmed escaped/safe with a majority missing, so we can only assume those missing are presumed dead after a couple more days pass.
Really a shame, but still doesn't appear to be any cause for the accident yet which is super strange.
apparently at the time of incident, the ship was controlled by an inexperienced pilot who made a very sharp turn and there is record that says the navigation system had problems 2 weeks ago
I wouldn't even be mad at the captain if he told everyone to abandon ship and then got off but from what I've read it seems he told everyone to stay where they were and then totally bailed on his own to get on the 1 lifeboat that worked without letting the passengers know. Total scumbag. RIP, I'd say any hope of finding survivors by now is super small unless a handful found an air pocket somewhere.
Most of the crew will be black-listed from employment in the shipping industry. Some of them will never hold a job in South Korea ever again. Especially if their name shows up on any news posts.
On April 21 2014 12:37 DwD wrote: I wouldn't even be mad at the captain if he told everyone to abandon ship and then got off but from what I've read it seems he told everyone to stay where they were and then totally bailed on his own to get on the 1 lifeboat that worked without letting the passengers know. Total scumbag. RIP, I'd say any hope of finding survivors by now is super small unless a handful found an air pocket somewhere.
That's the thing that really got me.
Fucking selfish scumbag, I strongly oppose the death penalty, but would not be sad to see this guy die in any way imaginable.
I mean if you're in that situation, and telling everyone to go crazy, maybe you are much more likely to die, to it is possible he weighed the risks, and live out the rest of his life in shame, having to live with what he did, and not having a decent job for the rest of his life. Life might be worth more than that to him, as I'm sure that'd be the case for many others. But think of how many more could have survived if it wasn't for the selfish actions of this crew.
All these selfish parents taking their anger on divers and people doing the hard work, they ought to be taught a lesson in diving conditions and maritime weather. And the media should emphasize it too. You can't expect divers to go diving in fast currents and limited visibility, they will would have troubles having to rescue their own peers than rather performing the intended tasks.
I don't put all the blame on the captain and recycle what is always said in the thread. Its typical maritime policy to change helm because the trip is over 13 hours long and this is standard ferry trip, you can't expect the captain to be at the helm for that long of a period but to put someone so inexperienced in that position was a mistake. Apparently she over-steered the ship and caused it to tip over, when the ship tilts about 5 degrees, its the point of no return especially when you have all this cargo onboard along with hundreds of passengers. The ship tilted and sunk very quickly too, very short time span.
On April 21 2014 12:24 marigoldran wrote: Surprised it took this long for someone to post a thread like this.
The captain, geezus, the captain. If I had been at the helm and started screaming into the intercom when the ship first started listing:
"The ship is sinking! Aaaaaarrrggggh!!!! Everyone grab a life jacket and get off the boat now or die! Everyone for himself! Waaaaaugh! (Panic, Panic, Panic).
I would have done a better job!
literally impossible to know unless youre in the situation.
On April 21 2014 12:24 marigoldran wrote: Surprised it took this long for someone to post a thread like this.
The captain, geezus, the captain. If I had been at the helm and started screaming into the intercom when the ship first started listing:
"The ship is sinking! Aaaaaarrrggggh!!!! Everyone grab a life jacket and get off the boat now or die! Everyone for himself! Waaaaaugh! (Panic, Panic, Panic).
I would have done a better job!
literally impossible to know unless youre in the situation.
This guy, you're probably going to have less survivors and recoverable bodies. That's reality, you can't control mother nature.
Giant tilting ship + hundreds of panicking floating people in open waters?
The captain was retarded: at the least he should have called for the people to get as high up on the ship as possible instead of telling them to stay IN the ship. Common sense dictates this at least.
Not saying my solution is GOOD. What I'm saying is that my (dumb) solution of getting everyone to jump off the boat ASAP is BETTER than the idiocy this captain decided on and would have saved more lives. And my naval experience is exactly -5.
If the dumb idiotic panicked screaming-your-head-off-like-a-chicken solution is better than what actually happened, I would argue the captains' actions were criminal negligence. The point is if I was the captain I WOULD have done a better job because it's difficult to imagine how anyone could have done a WORSE job than what the actual captain chose to do. He literally chose the WORST possible choice, which means that by default ANYONE else in that situation would have done better as long as they didn't make the same decision.
On April 21 2014 12:24 marigoldran wrote: Surprised it took this long for someone to post a thread like this.
The captain, geezus, the captain. If I had been at the helm and started screaming into the intercom when the ship first started listing:
"The ship is sinking! Aaaaaarrrggggh!!!! Everyone grab a life jacket and get off the boat now or die! Everyone for himself! Waaaaaugh! (Panic, Panic, Panic).
I would have done a better job!
literally impossible to know unless youre in the situation.
This guy, you're probably going to have less survivors and recoverable bodies. That's reality, you can't control mother nature.
Giant tilting ship + hundreds of panicking floating people in open waters?
edit: I meant to quote marigoldran
Really dude? The ones who survived were the ones who abandoned ship or went topside. Staying below deck was the absolute worst possible thing to do and that's what the captain ordered, right before he bailed. He could have at least added something like "Uh, I think you guys should all stay put, but I'm definitely bailing. Just throwing that out there. Feel free to do whatever."
I'm certain I would have done a better job because what the captain did was literally the worst possible choice. Even if I totally pussied out and abandoned ship asap like a coward, I still wouldn't of told everyone else to stay on board. I mean, that doesn't even make sense.
They should make an example out of THIS captain so the NEXT captain in a situation like this would decide that sinking with the ship is a better fate.
Those crew members who fled without helping others didn't sink with the ship. But most of them are going to wish they had. Their life is going to become a living hell.
On April 21 2014 14:56 marigoldran wrote: If he had died with the ship, his life today would be better. So yes, it would have helped.
lol... you made an account today, 7 out of your 9 posts was accounted here on this tragedy... for goodness sake, i hope they found the bodies of their dead love ones... no body to mourn for will drive you crazy
Terrible tragedy. Quite a bit of blame to go around on this one. Why did the boat turn so sharply so quickly? I understand why the Captain was not at the helm but why did he do such a poor job once alerted to the disaster? Does having everyone sit still help in any way and if it does is there precedence for that?
They will find all the bodies I think. Its past the point of finding survivors on the boat.
arent the white capsules in the right side of the pic supposed to be lifeboats?
yes, apparently used as decorations sadly, a naval sailor also died on Saturday on a boat on the way out to help in the search
Is there confirmation that those were not life boats but just decorations or likely to give a false sense of security Titanic style?
There were lifeboats, apparently 46 and all functional, however apparently the ship tilted too quickly and passengers didn't have time to get to them.
Bridge Absence
Captain Lee, 69, wasn’t on the bridge at the time of the sinking and he had assigned the third navigation officer to steer the vessel, Park Jae Uck, a prosecutor based in Gwangju, told reporters in Mokpo. “He may have returned to the wheelhouse as the ferry began tilting,” he said.
Investigators are probing whether the ferry turned too quickly or abnormally. They declined to say what announcements were made as the ferry sank, or whether passengers were told to stay in their cabins.
The 46 lifeboats on board the ferry had been checked on Feb. 10, according to Oh, who hurt his back during his escape. He was dressed in a white hospital gown and had an IV drip attached to his arm.
Functional Lifeboats
“All of the lifeboats were functional,” he said, sucking on his cigarette. “People came and opened all of them up to check and install them.”
Bodies found overnight and today all had life jackets on and weren’t discovered inside the ferry. They may have been trapped under the vessel, the coast guard said.
The ferry, owned and operated by privately held Chonghaejin Marine Co., listed and capsized in an area of the ocean as shallow as 20 meters (66 feet) in some parts, based on readings from a coast guard vessel used in the rescue operation. The ferry was en route from Incheon to Jeju island, popular with tourists and honeymooners.
“We know the rule,” said Oh. ‘The rule is to help the old and the weak, pregnant women, then other passengers, and then we should leave when it appears all have left, and the captain should abandon ship last.’’
On April 21 2014 14:56 marigoldran wrote: If he had died with the ship, his life today would be better. So yes, it would have helped.
lol... you made an account today, 7 out of your 9 posts was accounted here on this tragedy... for goodness sake, i hope they found the bodies of their dead love ones... no body to mourn for will drive you crazy
LoL. Well I've been lurking for a loooong time.
Sometimes I just like watching things burn. No direct personal attachment, but it reminds me of all of those stories where the captain goes down with the ship. Sometimes they do it for honor, but most of the time they do it because the alternative is worse (think Titanic), which is something this captain's about to discover.
Unfortunately most of the worst peacetime non-explosion maritime catastrophes are ferry sinkings. The last ferry sinking in Korea was actually in the 1990s and had similar death figures.
Without knowing what actually happened, it seems too early to criticize how the captain handled the situation. As of right now, it seems like the ferry listed so severely that it was extremely difficult if not impossible to deploy lifeboats. It may have been too late already the moment they executed the turn. I think it would be good to wait before demonizing a guy in a crappy situation.
Could you quote the article? I can't seem to access the link at the moment.
Anyway, I think it's a good idea to reserve judgement on the captain until we find out more. I don't think that whole deal about the captain going down with the ship makes any sense, but certainly he should have done everything in his power to help passengers escape. If a genuine mistake was the reason for all those people dying, then that's one thing, but if people died as a direct result of the captain putting his life before theirs, that's totally messed up.
As a kid, I always figured boats were safer than planes because if something was wrong with the ship, you could always just jump into the water. Too bad it's not that simple - the water could (as it was in this case) be dangerously cold, and just getting off the boat can be a challenge depending on the circumstances, such as a rapid capsizing. How long does it take for such a boat to capsize, anyway? Like fifteen minutes? Five?
What probably happened was the captain thought he could right the ship, which is why the evacuation order was so delayed. By the time he realized the mistake, it was too late.
What he should have done was to order everyone to get on deck with their life jackets just in case. But he probably didn't do it because that would have been a career-ending move, even if the ship didn't sink. So by trying to save his career, he made everything worse.
Thus the tar and the pitch forks. Totally deserved.
Finally, the ship was on a busy shipping lane. Anyone who jumped into the water would quickly get rescued. An American or English naval commander guilty of these mistakes would quickly be court-martial-ed, and in the past, shot.
It's obviously a terrible tragedy but also clearly a media frenzy to pin all the blame on the captain so the public has a focal point of outrage, we don't even know the name of the person who actually steered the ship and made it tilt, and it's a reasonable fear that if you told people to scramble outside when half the ship was already tilting into water that people would get trampled and swept out under the boat which would be a death sentence.
1. The crew of the ship was unprepared for emergencies such as this. The captain is to blame for that. This might be a cultural thing, and there's a good chance other Korean captains don't prepare their crew for emergencies like this. But that defense will not help in a military court of law. Just because other people mess around doesn't excuse you if disaster strikes on your watch.
2. The initial order to stay inside the ship goes against common sense and general regulations. If a ship is listing, the correct order is for ALL non-essential crew members to get to an open area on a ship with life jackets. That way more people live in case the ship sinks. Better safe than sorry. Virtually EVERY British or American naval officer commenting on this disaster agrees on this point.
3. The captain failed to clearly think or show initiative in an otherwise shitty situation. He failed to account for worst-case possibilities and prepare for accordingly. He also failed to account for the fact that on a busy shipping lane, anyone who ends up in the water will be quickly picked up. Perhaps his age (69) was a factor, but this only proves that he was unsuited for command in the first place.
What he should have done was to order everyone to get on deck with their life jackets just in case. But he probably didn't do it because that would have been a career-ending move, even if the ship didn't sink. So by trying to save his career, he made everything worse.
Would it really be that bad to take such a precaution? Like, let's say he did do it, everyone got on deck, turns out nothing happens, false alarm. What would have happened to the captain?
and it's a reasonable fear that if you told people to scramble outside when half the ship was already tilting into water that people would get trampled and swept out under the boat which would be a death sentence.
Surely there's got to be something between "everybody panic!" and "everyone stay where you are".
Complete chaos and panic in this disaster would have saved almost everyone. If at the beginning of the accident everyone had simply put on a life jacket, rushed to the nearest "diving point" [Run!] and jumped into the water, virtually everyone would have been saved. If the captain had simply ordered that, his career would be ended but many lives would have been saved.
On April 21 2014 16:58 marigoldran wrote: Complete chaos and panic in this disaster would have saved almost everyone. If everyone had simply put on a life jacket, rushed to the nearest "diving point" and jumped into the water, virtually everyone would have been saved. If the captain had simply ordered that, his career would be ended but many lives would have been saved.
You base this on what? Experience? Precedence? You realize people get tramped to death on wide open highways when there's no immediate danger at all during festivals right? Not to mention cramped hallways slanted at near 60 degree+ angles?
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos. There was of course a third alternative involving an orderly evacuation of the ship: but neither the crew, the captain, or the passengers were prepared for that. Given these constraints, the best possible choice was:
WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE. GET OFF THE SHIP NOW!!! PANIC!!!!
It would have saved many more lives. The students who actually chose this path early on survived.
EDIT: If the passengers were Chinese, most of the people would have been saved. The exceptions will be the ones who got trampled in the mad rush to the exit. Through long experience, the Chinese have a Darwinian philosophy to disasters like this.
On April 21 2014 17:03 marigoldran wrote: Please take note at how I said "almost everyone."
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos.
You realize also that when airplanes hit a water landing, people put on their life jackets but are not supposed to inflate them because the added flotation makes it impossible to swim or dive if water is in the cabin? Would have been the exact same here, it's almost impossible to dive into the water with jackets on unless you are an expert swimmer when the ship is capsizing.
R.i.p to the poor souls that havn' t made it. Those heroism stories are inspiring. Reading about someone giving their OWN life jacket to somebody else is really a big deal. Who knows what really went on there with the captain, from the OP its difficult to say.
On April 21 2014 14:53 iTzSnypah wrote: I blame the boat. All inputs should be regulated by a computer (like modern fighter jets), making it impossible for tragedies like this to happen.
Disagree. The captain and his crew lacked training or experience or something. They are to blame for this, not the ship. The crew has to be able to handle the damn ship lol, why else would they be there otherwise.
Inputs are regulated by computer in modern fighter jets so that the jets can be built instable and be not impossible to fly. If the jets are made to be instable, then they're more agile. If you put a computer between the pilot and the actual aircraft, the computer can do all the very minute corrections necessary so a highly unstable aircraft can be flown anyway without putting too much strain on the pilot. You can still fly a fly-by-wire aircraft into a mountain or be a bad pilot.
I believe this ferry hit a rock through poor navigation or poor seamanship. The way the emergency procedures were then handled were also bad, apparently. So it's really the crews fault, as far as I know.
E: Unforunate for the victims though. I just think that accidents like these should serve to raise a standard on crew training.
Captain Lee, 69, wasn’t on the bridge at the time of the sinking and he had assigned the third navigation officer to steer the vessel, Park Jae Uck, a prosecutor based in Gwangju, told reporters in Mokpo. “He may have returned to the wheelhouse as the ferry began tilting,” he said.
Investigators are probing whether the ferry turned too quickly or abnormally. They declined to say what announcements were made as the ferry sank, or whether passengers were told to stay in their cabins.
The 46 lifeboats on board the ferry had been checked on Feb. 10, according to Oh, who hurt his back during his escape. He was dressed in a white hospital gown and had an IV drip attached to his arm.
Functional Lifeboats
“All of the lifeboats were functional,” he said, sucking on his cigarette. “People came and opened all of them up to check and install them.”
Bodies found overnight and today all had life jackets on and weren’t discovered inside the ferry. They may have been trapped under the vessel, the coast guard said.
The ferry, owned and operated by privately held Chonghaejin Marine Co., listed and capsized in an area of the ocean as shallow as 20 meters (66 feet) in some parts, based on readings from a coast guard vessel used in the rescue operation. The ferry was en route from Incheon to Jeju island, popular with tourists and honeymooners.
“We know the rule,” said Oh. ‘The rule is to help the old and the weak, pregnant women, then other passengers, and then we should leave when it appears all have left, and the captain should abandon ship last.’’
I was reading up on this capsule lifeboat stuff.. It triggers in one of 2 ways:
You manually activate it by untieing it then giving it a swift kick on the black part to activate
when submerged 1~2m underwater it activates automatically.
The lifeboat capsule can also hold around 10 people,has rations enough to last 10 people for 3 days, a knife and a flare. There were supposed to be 46 lifeboats? (I don't know if this is even true because before the ship was modified and renamed to SEWOL it had capsule lifeboats attached to the walls of the top deck right next to the exit but those were taken out and instead they added likes 2 more stories onto the ship. In the picture there are only 12 but maybe some more on the other side of the ship?) What puzzles me though is if this capsule is supposed to automatically activate upon being submerged, why is there only two lifeboats floating around? was it because the rest was still tied to the boat so it activated underwater and sunk with the boat? or was it not even properly tested and there for decoration? + Show Spoiler [Capsule Before/After] +
it looks like this (the black part is where you hit) and it quickly blows up into that
On April 21 2014 17:03 marigoldran wrote: Please take note at how I said "almost everyone."
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos. There was of course a third alternative involving an orderly evacuation of the ship: but neither the crew, the captain, or the passengers were prepared for that.
as much as i want to keep my mouth shut on this topic after a 'hi hello'... your 'recommendation' sounds unreasonable.... i understand the captain's 'honest' assessment at first... i think he did what he thought was right by not igniting panic and rush judgement to 'take the plunge'... somehow along the way, he made a grave error of realizing it too late... therefore leading to mass casualties that would have been prevented...
On April 21 2014 16:43 Caihead wrote: It's obviously a terrible tragedy but also clearly a media frenzy to pin all the blame on the captain so the public has a focal point of outrage, we don't even know the name of the person who actually steered the ship and made it tilt, and it's a reasonable fear that if you told people to scramble outside when half the ship was already tilting into water that people would get trampled and swept out under the boat which would be a death sentence.
Well the blame really should be on the captain. He made the call to order the passengers to stay in their rooms for fear of them being swept away in life jackets. His decision literally cost hundreds of lives and would indicate his vessel and the capsize risk. It's a blessing and a curse that Koreans are so reluctant to question elders and authority. I remember they used to have problems with copilots not questioning their seniors on airlines, which led to accidents. Hopefully they can do the same reform for maritime commands and avoid further incidents like this.
arent the white capsules in the right side of the pic supposed to be lifeboats?
yes, apparently used as decorations sadly, a naval sailor also died on Saturday on a boat on the way out to help in the search
Is there confirmation that those were not life boats but just decorations or likely to give a false sense of security Titanic style?
There were lifeboats, apparently 46 and all functional, however apparently the ship tilted too quickly and passengers didn't have time to get to them.
Bridge Absence
Captain Lee, 69, wasn’t on the bridge at the time of the sinking and he had assigned the third navigation officer to steer the vessel, Park Jae Uck, a prosecutor based in Gwangju, told reporters in Mokpo. “He may have returned to the wheelhouse as the ferry began tilting,” he said.
Investigators are probing whether the ferry turned too quickly or abnormally. They declined to say what announcements were made as the ferry sank, or whether passengers were told to stay in their cabins.
The 46 lifeboats on board the ferry had been checked on Feb. 10, according to Oh, who hurt his back during his escape. He was dressed in a white hospital gown and had an IV drip attached to his arm.
Functional Lifeboats
“All of the lifeboats were functional,” he said, sucking on his cigarette. “People came and opened all of them up to check and install them.”
Bodies found overnight and today all had life jackets on and weren’t discovered inside the ferry. They may have been trapped under the vessel, the coast guard said.
The ferry, owned and operated by privately held Chonghaejin Marine Co., listed and capsized in an area of the ocean as shallow as 20 meters (66 feet) in some parts, based on readings from a coast guard vessel used in the rescue operation. The ferry was en route from Incheon to Jeju island, popular with tourists and honeymooners.
“We know the rule,” said Oh. ‘The rule is to help the old and the weak, pregnant women, then other passengers, and then we should leave when it appears all have left, and the captain should abandon ship last.’’
I was reading up on this capsule lifeboat stuff.. It triggers in one of 2 ways:
You manually activate it by untieing it then giving it a swift kick on the black part to activate
when submerged 1~2m underwater it activates automatically.
The lifeboat capsule can also hold around 10 people,has rations enough to last 10 people for 3 days, a knife and a flare. There were supposed to be 46 lifeboats? (I don't know if this is even true because before the ship was modified and renamed to SEWOL it had capsule lifeboats attached to the walls of the top deck right next to the exit but those were taken out and instead they added likes 2 more stories onto the ship. In the picture there are only 12 but maybe some more on the other side of the ship?) What puzzles me though is if this capsule is supposed to automatically activate upon being submerged, why is there only two lifeboats floating around? was it because the rest was still tied to the boat so it activated underwater and sunk with the boat? or was it not even properly tested and there for decoration? + Show Spoiler [Capsule Before/After] +
it looks like this (the black part is where you hit) and it quickly blows up into that
what i can't comprehend is that whether the boat is tilting hard on 45, 60, 180, 360 degrees whatever, logical move would be to put on a life jacket and prepare the lifeboats... the lifeboats are near on the bridge... the heck there is no crew on the bridge to even rush and release those... as for the passengers, when you feel the boat is tilting hard, common sense tells you to abandon ship but knowing the culture and chaos, that regretably was...
On April 21 2014 17:03 marigoldran wrote: Please take note at how I said "almost everyone."
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos.
You realize also that when airplanes hit a water landing, people put on their life jackets but are not supposed to inflate them because the added flotation makes it impossible to swim or dive if water is in the cabin? Would have been the exact same here, it's almost impossible to dive into the water with jackets on unless you are an expert swimmer when the ship is capsizing.
I don't understand your point. What is it? My point is that if everyone had put on their life jackets (I never said to inflate them), and jumped into the water the moment the ship started listing, a lot more people would have been saved.
On April 21 2014 17:03 marigoldran wrote: Please take note at how I said "almost everyone."
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos. There was of course a third alternative involving an orderly evacuation of the ship: but neither the crew, the captain, or the passengers were prepared for that.
as much as i want to keep my mouth shut on this topic after a 'hi hello'... your 'recommendation' sounds unreasonable.... i understand the captain's 'honest' assessment at first... i think he did what he thought was right by not igniting panic and rush judgement to 'take the plunge'... somehow along the way, he made a grave error of realizing it too late... therefore leading to mass casualties that would have been prevented...
My recommendation for everyone to put on life jackets and run screaming to the nearest exit is extremely unreasonable. Nonetheless, in that situation it would have been a better call. And there were many students who chose this decision. They survived.
The best solution would have been for the captain to order everyone to an open area on the ship with their life jackets the moment the ship started listing. Instead he chose the worst option. And yes, while there are reasons for his decision, in the end it was inexcusable.
But blindly listening to authority is inexcusable too. Deadly, in fact.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
Idk, a 70 year old guy surviving being responsible for the deaths of 200 teenagers is going to piss a lot of people off. I may just be bullshitting on an internet forum but if I were 70 and had the lives of 300 very young people in my hands.... better me than them.
Apparently we might not be getting the whole story. My (Korean) wife read some blogs saying that the ship originally had made contact with authorities at 7:20 AM (1 hour and 40 minutes before the first distress call, and about 4 hours before it really started sinking) that they had a problem. Since that was originally reported, the media has stopped doing so (in Korea - all worldwide organizations are being fed info from Korean sources I believe). It could potentially have been a military operation gone wrong, or something that the government is covering up (the media is fairly censored in Korea). The blame has thus been shifted onto the captain/crew (President condemning him, etc.) to divert attention away from all that...
However, she (my wife) was just telling me she read about the above theory, not that she believes it, or that I necessarily believe it either. Probably false, but since there's still no confirmed theory on why the ship sank, it's interesting to read about.
Another anecdote: my co-worker's friend is in the coastguard down there, and he said the water was just teeming with bodies as early as Thursday (it sank Wednesday), but they haven't started reporting body counts until more recently.
Anyway, I don't want to de-rail with conspiracy theories or whatever. Just reporting on what you haven't heard in the media probably.
As a teacher (in Korea...) this incident is fucking heartbreaking. I just imagine what their last moments would have been like... gives me nightmares.
On April 21 2014 18:19 SoleSteeler wrote: Apparently we might not be getting the whole story. My (Korean) wife read some blogs saying that the ship originally had made contact with authorities at 7:20 AM (1 hour and 40 minutes before the first distress call, and about 4 hours before it really started sinking) that they had a problem. Since that was originally reported, the media has stopped doing so (in Korea - all worldwide organizations are being fed info from Korean sources I believe). It could potentially have been a military operation gone wrong, or something that the government is covering up (the media is fairly censored in Korea). The blame has thus been shifted onto the captain/crew (President condemning him, etc.) to divert attention away from all that...
However, she (my wife) was just telling me she read about the above theory, not that she believes it, or that I necessarily believe it either. Probably false, but since there's still no confirmed theory on why the ship sank, it's interesting to read about.
Another anecdote: my co-worker's friend is in the coastguard down there, and he said the water was just teeming with bodies as early as Thursday (it sank Wednesday), but they haven't started reporting body counts until more recently.
Anyway, I don't want to de-rail with conspiracy theories or whatever. Just reporting on what you haven't heard in the media probably.
As a teacher (in Korea...) this incident is fucking heartbreaking. I just imagine what their last moments would have been like... gives me nightmares.
i read a MBC News piece saying the ship was modified and it added like over 800tons of extra mass which might have contributed to the tipping.
Make an example of him and his officers so the next captain in this situation will choose the better option of putting in a better effort and sinking with the ship, if needs be. The Western tradition is correct: the captain leaves last. And if there's passengers still on the sinking ship, he goes down with them. It makes ships safer because it pushes the captain to worry about safety ALL the time.
The South Korean government should pass a law saying that captains cannot leave a sinking ship until everyone else is safe. This law will immediately force EVERY captain to think carefully about safety- because their own lives depend on it.
arent the white capsules in the right side of the pic supposed to be lifeboats?
yes, apparently used as decorations sadly, a naval sailor also died on Saturday on a boat on the way out to help in the search
Is there confirmation that those were not life boats but just decorations or likely to give a false sense of security Titanic style?
There were lifeboats, apparently 46 and all functional, however apparently the ship tilted too quickly and passengers didn't have time to get to them.
Bridge Absence
Captain Lee, 69, wasn’t on the bridge at the time of the sinking and he had assigned the third navigation officer to steer the vessel, Park Jae Uck, a prosecutor based in Gwangju, told reporters in Mokpo. “He may have returned to the wheelhouse as the ferry began tilting,” he said.
Investigators are probing whether the ferry turned too quickly or abnormally. They declined to say what announcements were made as the ferry sank, or whether passengers were told to stay in their cabins.
The 46 lifeboats on board the ferry had been checked on Feb. 10, according to Oh, who hurt his back during his escape. He was dressed in a white hospital gown and had an IV drip attached to his arm.
Functional Lifeboats
“All of the lifeboats were functional,” he said, sucking on his cigarette. “People came and opened all of them up to check and install them.”
Bodies found overnight and today all had life jackets on and weren’t discovered inside the ferry. They may have been trapped under the vessel, the coast guard said.
The ferry, owned and operated by privately held Chonghaejin Marine Co., listed and capsized in an area of the ocean as shallow as 20 meters (66 feet) in some parts, based on readings from a coast guard vessel used in the rescue operation. The ferry was en route from Incheon to Jeju island, popular with tourists and honeymooners.
“We know the rule,” said Oh. ‘The rule is to help the old and the weak, pregnant women, then other passengers, and then we should leave when it appears all have left, and the captain should abandon ship last.’’
I was reading up on this capsule lifeboat stuff.. It triggers in one of 2 ways:
You manually activate it by untieing it then giving it a swift kick on the black part to activate
when submerged 1~2m underwater it activates automatically.
The lifeboat capsule can also hold around 10 people,has rations enough to last 10 people for 3 days, a knife and a flare. There were supposed to be 46 lifeboats? (I don't know if this is even true because before the ship was modified and renamed to SEWOL it had capsule lifeboats attached to the walls of the top deck right next to the exit but those were taken out and instead they added likes 2 more stories onto the ship. In the picture there are only 12 but maybe some more on the other side of the ship?) What puzzles me though is if this capsule is supposed to automatically activate upon being submerged, why is there only two lifeboats floating around? was it because the rest was still tied to the boat so it activated underwater and sunk with the boat? or was it not even properly tested and there for decoration? + Show Spoiler [Capsule Before/After] +
it looks like this (the black part is where you hit) and it quickly blows up into that
@Fiwifaki Is it really that important that passengers get to the lifeboats while on board? Can't somebody just activate all of them and throw them into the water? The passengers can always scramble onto them after they savely left the ship.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
Idk, a 70 year old guy surviving being responsible for the deaths of 200 teenagers is going to piss a lot of people off. I may just be bullshitting on an internet forum but if I were 70 and had the lives of 300 very young people in my hands.... better me than them.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
what "shame" is punishment enough please? He will keep living and hundreds are dead
Why are we making him sound so responsible though - can he invoke on ancestral superpowers and keep the boat floating, or what? Ok, perhaps if he's on the ball and starts organizing shit a few less people die... but to imply he's responsible for hundreds dying?! wtf
There was an article about citizens being furious because the people who knew how to activate the lifeboat capsules just ran the fuck out of that ship onto the passenger ship.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
Idk, a 70 year old guy surviving being responsible for the deaths of 200 teenagers is going to piss a lot of people off. I may just be bullshitting on an internet forum but if I were 70 and had the lives of 300 very young people in my hands.... better me than them.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
what "shame" is punishment enough please? He will keep living and hundreds are dead
Why are we making him sound so responsible though - can he invoke on ancestral superpowers and keep the boat floating, or what? Ok, perhaps if he's on the ball and starts organizing shit a few less people die... but to imply he's responsible for hundreds dying?! wtf
Supposedly, he was not even doing his job and had a rookie with like 5 weeks (or 5 months?) experience at the ship's wheel.
There's also the minor point that the captain ordered people to remain in their cabins when the ship started listing. By the time they realized their mistake, it was already too late.
On April 21 2014 19:26 marigoldran wrote: There's also the minor point that the captain ordered people to remain in their cabins when the ship started listing. By the time they realized their mistake, it was already too late.
And then the crew ran for the lifeboats.
The captain is... like beyond wow with his actions. While almost all of his passengers were in a dying ship, he ran for it. it should have been obvious when the ship was listing to heavily to evac for safety. No captain should be this stupid. I HOPE S. Korea prosecutes his ass and his entire crew for murder. You should never seen any stuff like this happen with ships in the modern area.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
Idk, a 70 year old guy surviving being responsible for the deaths of 200 teenagers is going to piss a lot of people off. I may just be bullshitting on an internet forum but if I were 70 and had the lives of 300 very young people in my hands.... better me than them.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
what "shame" is punishment enough please? He will keep living and hundreds are dead
Why are we making him sound so responsible though - can he invoke on ancestral superpowers and keep the boat floating, or what? Ok, perhaps if he's on the ball and starts organizing shit a few less people die... but to imply he's responsible for hundreds dying?! wtf
He ordered them to stay in their cabins due to fear of them drifting away. Consequently they became trapped and died. Yes, I would say there's a good chance he's responsible for hundreds of deaths.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
Idk, a 70 year old guy surviving being responsible for the deaths of 200 teenagers is going to piss a lot of people off. I may just be bullshitting on an internet forum but if I were 70 and had the lives of 300 very young people in my hands.... better me than them.
On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote: Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
what "shame" is punishment enough please? He will keep living and hundreds are dead
Why are we making him sound so responsible though - can he invoke on ancestral superpowers and keep the boat floating, or what? Ok, perhaps if he's on the ball and starts organizing shit a few less people die... but to imply he's responsible for hundreds dying?! wtf
A captain on a ship/plane is always responsible for his/her passengers. This is true for every single country out there that has Ships and Airplanes.
This captain told his passengers to stay put, which they did, and when the ship was clearly going to sink, HE RAN. He was one of the very first to ditch the ship and left his passengers there. All of them who followed HIS instructions died with the ship.
So yes, he is absolutely responsible for 200+ deaths that should have never had happened in the first place. The ones who are alive were the ones who didn't listen and ditched the ship.
On April 21 2014 14:53 iTzSnypah wrote: I blame the boat. All inputs should be regulated by a computer (like modern fighter jets), making it impossible for tragedies like this to happen.
Inputs are regulated by computer in modern fighter jets so that the jets can be built instable and be not impossible to fly.
You forgot to include that the computer also limits how many Gs you can pull (because the pilot can't even come close to what the machine can operate at), which what my analogy was alluding to.
While I don't know how I feel about the "Captain goes down with his ship/ must know for sure that everyone else is off before tending to his own safety" mantra, this captain literally told his passengers to wait on board- rather than try to escape- while he ensured his own life first... and so he's almost certainly responsible for the deaths of all those kids, as some of those deaths were probably preventable, had he at least treated the importance of their lives equally to his own. Their blood is on his hands because of his actions, and it's quite a tragedy. What an awful "captain".
For those saying he shouldn't have put such an inexperienced person at the helm, recognize that that's actually very common on some types of ships and boats, such as aircraft carriers and submarines. Of course, they are carefully supervised by experienced sailors... not just left to their own devices.
When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
@icystorage below i would rather take my chances than wait for my impending doom... but taking a plunge over a 10-18 degrees... i might reconsider and make a 'macgyver'
he's also afraid that if he let the passengers abandon ship, they might drift away.
there's a transmission script from that news article roughly summarizing, the captain is asking if they can rescue the passengers right away, if not then he let them stay put in the ship
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Plus, you don't really want to be in freezing water any longer than you have to (hypothermia), and you tend to trust the captain's judgment and instructions, because he's... the captain.
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Eh, I'd gladly risk being sucked in as opposed to 100% guaranteed death trapped in a sinking ship. I think we can all agree the captain made the absolute worst sequence of decisions. He probably could have saved more lives if he went below deck with a gun and started shooting randomly. You know you screwed up real bad somewhere when mass murder could have saved more lives than the course of action you chose.
On April 21 2014 22:13 icystorage wrote: he's also afraid that if he let the passengers abandon ship, they might drift away.
there's a transmission script from that news article roughly summarizing, the captain is asking if they can rescue the passengers right away, if not then he let them stay put in the ship
Which could be very reasonable, if he actually thought that was the right course of action. "Hey, uh, you guys stay put! That's the safest bet." "But.. where are you going?" "Oh, I'm getting the hell out of here, this ship is sinking."
Like, I understand strong currents are super dangerous and the waters were cold.. but that's exactly where the boat is headed.
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Plus, you don't really want to be in freezing water any longer than you have to (hypothermia), and you tend to trust the captain's judgment and instructions, because he's... the captain.
I don't think I'd ever listen to "stay in your cabins". That's almost the worst thing you can do.
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Plus, you don't really want to be in freezing water any longer than you have to (hypothermia), and you tend to trust the captain's judgment and instructions, because he's... the captain.
this is actually pretty valid (im not defending the captain). hypothermia is also very dangerous, especially if there are only 2(?) lifeboats activated
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Plus, you don't really want to be in freezing water any longer than you have to (hypothermia), and you tend to trust the captain's judgment and instructions, because he's... the captain.
this is actually pretty valid (im not defending the captain). hypothermia is also very dangerous, especially if there are only 2(?) lifeboats activated
only 2 lifeboats were activated because there was no evacuation happening I am 100% sure evacuation was called so late because the captain didn't want to "lose face" in case everything is alright.
I don't see one logical reason the crew did not order an evacuation right after they noticed the accident. It is all about the risk of losing face
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Plus, you don't really want to be in freezing water any longer than you have to (hypothermia), and you tend to trust the captain's judgment and instructions, because he's... the captain.
I don't think I'd ever listen to "stay in your cabins". That's almost the worst thing you can do.
Oh don't get me wrong; based on what the captain knew, the captain made an awful decision.
I'm merely saying that the average passenger probably wouldn't know exactly what's happening (and certainly not as far in advance as the captain), and so would opt to listen to the captain in emergency situations. So I'm certainly not blaming the passengers for staying on board when the captain says so.
they wont find any survivors, the other 250 missing are dead and the divers will have the worst months of their lives finding hundreds of floating and bloating dead children.
took this ship a long time to sink to a point where to lifeboats were unusable and even longer for it to make evacuations hopeless and it looks like it never sunk to the point where it creates a deadly downward stream for everyone not in a lifeboat. So many people dead is clearly human error.
The costa concordia was also really bad, that ship was literally 50 meters away from a shore.
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Plus, you don't really want to be in freezing water any longer than you have to (hypothermia), and you tend to trust the captain's judgment and instructions, because he's... the captain.
This wasn't like the Titanic scenario where the bulk of the passengers froze to death treading in icy waters for hours; rescue helicopters and ships were on sight within minutes of the capsizing, long before the ferry had sunk completely.
Survivors were being pulled out of the water by fishing boats that were in the area before the coastguard had even arrived. Had more people disobeyed the captain's orders and abandoned the ferry en masse, it's almost certain that the death toll wouldn't be nearly as high.
On April 22 2014 00:48 scissorhands wrote: Not all of the crew members were cowards. There were some (crew and passengers) who stayed behind and died trying to help get people out.
I'm surprised they haven't just flipped it over with the cranes. If you can't do anything for the survivors then what point is there in not raising the thing because they would be injured/dead either way.
6 days now, in cold water, no food, depleting oxygen... it would be a super duper miracle if someone out there is still alive...
salvage and retrieval operation is commencing...
i wonder if the captain has children... they might be facing embarassment and ridiculed by the people
The President:
"tantamount to murder," "The actions of the captain and some crew members were utterly incomprehensible, unacceptable, and tantamount to murder," "Not only my heart, but the hearts of all South Koreans have been broken and filled with shock and anger," "This is utterly unimaginable, legally and ethically," Park said the government should review its crisis response system. Park's denunciation, in which she vowed to hold all those responsible for the disaster "criminally accountable," followed the release of a transcript showing the panic and indecision that paralyzed decision-making on the bridge as the 6,825-ton Sewol listed and capsized Wednesday morning.
there are certain situations where the proof is so overwhelmingly abundant that everyone knows he's guilty but still the head of state of a country should not be saying a citizen's actions were "tantamount to murder" before a guilty verdict or plea. even when everyone knows the guy did something very wrong public officials shouldn't be saying things like that. other than police and prosecutors because that's part of their job.
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Plus, you don't really want to be in freezing water any longer than you have to (hypothermia), and you tend to trust the captain's judgment and instructions, because he's... the captain.
This wasn't like the Titanic scenario where the bulk of the passengers froze to death treading in icy waters for hours; rescue helicopters and ships were on sight within minutes of the capsizing, long before the ferry had sunk completely.
Survivors were being pulled out of the water by fishing boats that were in the area before the coastguard had even arrived. Had more people disobeyed the captain's orders and abandoned the ferry en masse, it's almost certain that the death toll wouldn't be nearly as high.
Obviously they should have disobeyed the captain's orders, if they had known that the captain was being a selfish jerk.
The reports of the survivors who swam were that the water was freezing, and they had no way of knowing how long until the rescue vehicles were coming, so obviously they're not going to go out of their way to jump into the water if the captain is telling them that they'll be okay on the boat. If they had been made aware of the dire situation as soon as possible, they would have had a much better chance of surviving.
On April 21 2014 22:03 FoxShine wrote: When I heard about this I was baffled.. I mean, you would have better luck treading water for as long as you could than inside your cabin.. If the boat is indeed sinking, what is the logic behind staying in the cabins. When he gave the order for them to stay inside the cabin, at that time, was he fully aware the ship was for sure going to sink? Or is it like the ship would pull you underwater?
if im not mistaken, you need to be 20 meters away from a sinking vessel in order not to be sucked
Plus, you don't really want to be in freezing water any longer than you have to (hypothermia), and you tend to trust the captain's judgment and instructions, because he's... the captain.
This wasn't like the Titanic scenario where the bulk of the passengers froze to death treading in icy waters for hours; rescue helicopters and ships were on sight within minutes of the capsizing, long before the ferry had sunk completely.
Survivors were being pulled out of the water by fishing boats that were in the area before the coastguard had even arrived. Had more people disobeyed the captain's orders and abandoned the ferry en masse, it's almost certain that the death toll wouldn't be nearly as high.
Obviously they should have disobeyed the captain's orders, if they had known that the captain was being a selfish jerk.
The reports of the survivors who swam were that the water was freezing, and they had no way of knowing how long until the rescue vehicles were coming, so obviously they're not going to go out of their way to jump into the water if the captain is telling them that they'll be okay on the boat. If they had been made aware of the dire situation as soon as possible, they would have had a much better chance of surviving.
That's the tragedy of it, really. The vast majority of the victims were 16-17 year old High School students who were just doing what they were told by an authority figure.
I still can't get over the fact that the passengers never got the word to evacuate the ship, and it wasn't until the water started rushing in that they realized they were trapped in a tomb with no way out. Someone (i.e. the captain) plainly screwed up here.
oh my goodness, looking at video, it would be impossible to be alive when the ship capsized... i cant imagine the chaos inside...
no suvivors spotted on the scene... the next time i will be on a boat, i will never ever go to a cabin... would now prefer lodging myself to any class rate with easy access of escaping...
probably the last survivor ever escaped... just look at the 'sucking' part... give me the creeps how he got out...
English Korean newscast breaking news
Captain claims that he told passengers to evacuate Excessive load and renovation led to the sinking One of the Sewol engineer attempts suicide following the investigation The marine operators, shareholders were banned to leave the country
I don't know anything about ships, but once a ship is at the point in the OP's pic at 0855 I'm guess it's an unrecoverable position? Just going to make a mental note to get the fuck topside if a bot ever ends up at that kind of angle for a prolonged time.
And yeah everyone that hasn't been rescued is now dead. Either drowning, exposure, lack of fresh water / food.
On April 22 2014 05:15 JinDesu wrote: That rescue footage is intense and somewhat horrifying, seeing the ship in that position as rescue boats rush back and forth to save people...
yeah i dont know, i think i would have pushed all the people out into the water instead of trying to not get them wet and on the other boat 1 by 1. Its a thing you learn when you make one of those german water rescue qualification thingies; sometimes have to use force to help people, especially when it involves water.
I don't know anything about ships, but once a ship is at the point in the OP's pic at 0855 I'm guess it's an unrecoverable position? Just going to make a mental note to get the fuck topside if a bot ever ends up at that kind of angle for a prolonged time.
well, if a ship goes into a position where water comes in and it doesnt swing back because of its center of mass quite soon after that, you better go to the top. modern ships have rescue boats all over the place that take less than a minute to get ready, you just get into one and then get a bit of distance from the ship in case it breaks or whatever, which can release quite some force.
these big ships....once they are in that position in the picture, their load allready shidted sides and their center of mass then will actively sinks the ship even without water helping.
People are gonna be understandably angry, but hopefully those who are charged with crimes can get fair trials. I wonder how I'd feel if there was someone I knew that died on that ship--still attempting to be fair-minded? I'd rather not find out.
Even tho i do agree that the Captain made a really bad call (if that is the real call he did). You guys believe everyone coulda been saved? I mean, the ship sank pretty damn fast.
But still a heartbreaking story, specially knowing that most of the people below the boat are really young with a lot of life and a great future infront of them. Really maked me sad .
Rescue effort was also really poor/slow. Took them till Saturday night (almost 5 days) to gain access to the passenger section (by breaking a window...). It really shouldn't take that long in this day and age, regardless of difficulties with current and visibility. It just seems unreal that given that amount of time, a national rescue effort couldn't get inside a vessel in such shallow water.
On April 22 2014 08:48 Scarecrow wrote: Rescue effort was also really poor/slow. Took them till Saturday night (almost 5 days) to gain access to the passenger section (by breaking a window...). It really shouldn't take that long in this day and age, regardless of difficulties with current and visibility. It just seems unreal that given that amount of time, a national rescue effort couldn't get inside a vessel in such shallow water.
Diving on ships is really dangerous even in good conditions, and you don't want to compound the tragedy by losing divers. I'm not saying they're doing a good job with the rescue/recovery efforts, but to say that the divers should go in regardless of current and visibility is irresponsible and irrational.
On April 22 2014 08:48 Scarecrow wrote: Rescue effort was also really poor/slow. Took them till Saturday night (almost 5 days) to gain access to the passenger section (by breaking a window...). It really shouldn't take that long in this day and age, regardless of difficulties with current and visibility. It just seems unreal that given that amount of time, a national rescue effort couldn't get inside a vessel in such shallow water.
Diving on ships is really dangerous even in good conditions, and you don't want to compound the tragedy by losing divers. I'm not saying they're doing a good job with the rescue/recovery efforts, but to say that the divers should go in regardless of current and visibility is irresponsible and irrational.
Careful is fine, but 5 days to make any sort of progress? Surely a modern search and rescue can do better than that?
On April 22 2014 08:48 Scarecrow wrote: Rescue effort was also really poor/slow. Took them till Saturday night (almost 5 days) to gain access to the passenger section (by breaking a window...). It really shouldn't take that long in this day and age, regardless of difficulties with current and visibility. It just seems unreal that given that amount of time, a national rescue effort couldn't get inside a vessel in such shallow water.
Are you speaking as some kind of authority on rescue diving? It may SEEM unreal but as someone already pointed out, there is no need to compound a national tragedy further by losing divers.
Diving 50 meters below the water is a tad bit different from diving into the swimming pool, which at its deepest is 5 m.
There's the minor point where if you go below 10 m and you rise too quickly to the surface the air bubbles in your blood will expand and blow up your capillaries.
There's also the minor point that in order to survive 50 m underwater you need a stable supply of oxygen. And since that oxygen is supplied by the ship on top of you, you better hope the weather above isn't too choppy or else your oxygen can get cut off.
Oh, finally, there are unpredictable underwater currents. These currents are the strongest in areas with lots of narrow passageways, such as for example the area around a clump of islands.
And did I mention that it's pitch black and cold down there too?
I guess I'm just naive to think that with modern rescue equipment we're still incapable of dealing with dark, cold water and strong currents. Of course it's extremely difficult but isn't this the sort of rescue that they are paid and prepare for? According to reports, they collected a bunch of bodies that floated free, tapped on the hull and broke a window after 5 days.
If the water is choppy and the weather is bad, exactly what are you supposed to do? Divers must be tethered to boats ABOVE the water. If the boats above the water cannot maintain a stable platform....
Technology is not magic. You cannot just wave your hand and say "because of modern technology, everything is possible. Because I pay you, you should be able to do it." Only people who take technology for granted (i.e. non-engineers) think this way. Anyone with a mathematical or scientific background would carefully think over WHY things work the way they do. Sometimes they're wrong, but at least the THINKING process is there.
If the captain could have thought things over clearly, or if the passengers could have thought for themselves critically, this disaster could have been averted. The problem is people take authority and technology for granted.
You would think with modern equipment we would be freely exploring the depths. Its not easy even with money, you cannot beat mother nature, I wish this would get into the brains of everyone. And even with oxygen tanks a human can't not stay submerged too long at different depths or conditions. Oxygen tanks do not only contain 100% pure oxygen, like if you go hiking and breathing 100% oxygen would make you ill.
edit: If people going to reply with robots, sorry robots are just not as effective for such operations.
Wow, apparently, 174 have been rescued... Of course, that's not even half of the population, but that's still gotta mean something, right? This whole situation just makes you wanna close your eyes and wonder if this all actually happening.
Guess that's how it felt during most of the terrorist acts in the past, I was just too young to be aware of back then... Not that I'm implying a terrorist was responsible for this >.>
You would think with modern equipment we would be freely exploring the depths.
the ocean is so immense and powerful that its hard to wrap a head around it really, it can be a 10-foot fishing boat or a nuclear aircraft carrier or the most up-to-date ultradeep-diving submarine we really are at the ocean's mercy when we're out there. we are not ever truly the masters out there like the way we usually are on land.
Generally it's a hard decision to give the order of evacuation for a passenger ship. On one hand, every minute is precious and an early evacuation order saves lives if the ship is actually sinking like in this case.
On the other hand, if the ship is not actually sinking, an evacuation order can needlessly cost lives. Most deaths in the Costa Concordia incident were related to people who jumped from the ship in panic. And the Costa Concordia was in shallow waters right next to an island. Here we are talking about a ship surrounded by a cold and dangerous ocean.
We also do not know the cause of the sinking yet. I am not saying the bridge crew is free from blame, and the captain certainly is to blame. But if they were not well trained for an emergency - apparently they weren't - and if they did not get clear instructions in response to their emergency call then there is something wrong with the South Korean system, too.
On April 22 2014 17:25 Maenander wrote: Generally it's a hard decision to give the order of evacuation for a passenger ship. On one hand, every minute is precious and an early evacuation order saves lives if the ship is actually sinking like in this case.
On the other hand, if the ship is not actually sinking, an evacuation order can needlessly cost lives. Most deaths in the Costa Concordia incident were related to people who jumped from the ship in panic. And the Costa Concordia was in shallow waters right next to an island. Here we are talking about a ship surrounded by a cold and dangerous ocean.
We also do not know the cause of the sinking yet. I am not saying the bridge crew is free from blame, and the captain certainly is to blame. But if they were not well trained for an emergency - apparently they weren't - and if they did not get clear instructions in response to their emergency call then there is something wrong with the South Korean system, too.
The bbc was reporting on transcripts between the ship and the coastguard from when they sent out the SOS.
"
At 09:24 - 29 minutes after the Sewol issued its first distress call - a controller says: "Please go out and let the passengers wear life jackets and put on more clothing.''
The unidentified crew member says: "If this ferry evacuates passengers, will you be able to rescue them?"
"At least make them wear life rings and make them escape,'' the controller from the Jindo Vessel Traffic Services Centre replies.
As he continues to urge the crew to prepare for evacuation, the crew member twice asks if passengers would be "rescued straight away".
It was not until 09:37 - a few seconds before the last communication - that it became clear to controllers that evacuation had been ordered.
"
I guess the crew just didn't think it would sink as fast as it did, and were afraid of people dying in the ocean, assuming they'd be safer on the ship then in the water unless there were rescue ships already there.
I don't know how accurate this website is but I thought it would be interesting to read about expected survival times in various conditions. I'm guessing it was pretty cold out there, but if anyone knows exactly how cold I'd be interested.
Premature evac can also fuck people up just as badly. It's actually a really fine call from the sounds of it.
On April 22 2014 11:56 Scarecrow wrote: I guess I'm just naive to think that with modern rescue equipment we're still incapable of dealing with dark, cold water and strong currents. Of course it's extremely difficult but isn't this the sort of rescue that they are paid and prepare for? According to reports, they collected a bunch of bodies that floated free, tapped on the hull and broke a window after 5 days.
Yeah you are pretty naive if you think humans have the means to oppose mother nature. Only in scifi humans can beat nature, we are and always will be subject to her wills
On April 22 2014 11:56 Scarecrow wrote: I guess I'm just naive to think that with modern rescue equipment we're still incapable of dealing with dark, cold water and strong currents. Of course it's extremely difficult but isn't this the sort of rescue that they are paid and prepare for? According to reports, they collected a bunch of bodies that floated free, tapped on the hull and broke a window after 5 days.
While you can anchor the rescue boats nearby in bad weather, you can't approach with a boat(Could cause even more of a disaster if it nudges the ship) and you can't send divers into the water for sure. The temperatures are actually one of the lesser issues, with proper cold water diving equipment you can stay in there for several hours, especially with a tether. The bigger issue is current. Underwater, even very strong swimmers would be hard pressed to fight a current of more than a couple km/h for any length of time before exhausting themselves. The water also looks extremely murky, visibility is probably only several meters.
ROV's can be used in bad weather, and depending on the model even fight the currents, but they can't do much more than surveillance/analysis much of the time. Even if anybody was still alive in an airpocket somewhere, that rescue is reliant on divers because it is far too delicate for ROV's to undertake.
On April 22 2014 11:56 Scarecrow wrote: I guess I'm just naive to think that with modern rescue equipment we're still incapable of dealing with dark, cold water and strong currents. Of course it's extremely difficult but isn't this the sort of rescue that they are paid and prepare for? According to reports, they collected a bunch of bodies that floated free, tapped on the hull and broke a window after 5 days.
Yeah you are pretty naive if you think humans have the means to oppose mother nature. Only in scifi humans can beat nature, we are and always will be subject to her wills
Sarcasm? otherwise wtf are you even talking about, we defy 'mother nature' all the time... Some environments are more difficult than others but referring to them as a single entity coupled with blanket statements is retarded (I hope that was your point).
On April 22 2014 17:25 Maenander wrote: Generally it's a hard decision to give the order of evacuation for a passenger ship. On one hand, every minute is precious and an early evacuation order saves lives if the ship is actually sinking like in this case.
On the other hand, if the ship is not actually sinking, an evacuation order can needlessly cost lives. Most deaths in the Costa Concordia incident were related to people who jumped from the ship in panic. And the Costa Concordia was in shallow waters right next to an island. Here we are talking about a ship surrounded by a cold and dangerous ocean.
We also do not know the cause of the sinking yet. I am not saying the bridge crew is free from blame, and the captain certainly is to blame. But if they were not well trained for an emergency - apparently they weren't - and if they did not get clear instructions in response to their emergency call then there is something wrong with the South Korean system, too.
The bbc was reporting on transcripts between the ship and the coastguard from when they sent out the SOS.
At 09:24 - 29 minutes after the Sewol issued its first distress call - a controller says: "Please go out and let the passengers wear life jackets and put on more clothing.''
The unidentified crew member says: "If this ferry evacuates passengers, will you be able to rescue them?"
"At least make them wear life rings and make them escape,'' the controller from the Jindo Vessel Traffic Services Centre replies.
As he continues to urge the crew to prepare for evacuation, the crew member twice asks if passengers would be "rescued straight away".
It was not until 09:37 - a few seconds before the last communication - that it became clear to controllers that evacuation had been ordered.
"
I guess the crew just didn't think it would sink as fast as it did, and were afraid of people dying in the ocean, assuming they'd be safer on the ship then in the water unless there were rescue ships already there.
possibly, but the order to "remain in your cabin" goes against everything I was taught about proper procedure. Maybe they skipped the proper "evacuation drill" as it is not mandatory for ferries (something many sailors disagree with), but at least the crew should have known how to prepare for an eventual evacuation: 1) Make everyone dress in his warmest clothes and put his lifejacket on. 2) Assemble them on the open deck/s with crew members close by to every group to give orders.
Once those things have been done (should take between 5 and 10 minutes depending on how well drilled the crew is, 3 minutes at the very least to move most passengers) they can evacuate a ship properly (everyone into lifeboats) within 2 minutes. Yes the ship sunk fast (as all ferries do, too much weight, not enough pumps) but I've personally seen a bigger ferry evacuated in 9 minutes so I really don't understand the thought process behind the "stay inside" order. Once a ship starts to flood with water it becomes a deathtrap inside, every sailor knows that...
I'm still shocked that a second captain makes such crucial mistakes, I thought you couldn't give more idiotic orders after the Costa Concordia mess, but this one is even worse...
Not sure if this may have already been mentioned in the thread, but this ship was basically a disaster waiting to be happen, according to my Korean friends relaying news from Korean news services etc.
Apparently the usual captain of the ship was off at the time of the catastrophe because of a holiday or somesuch, and the guy captaining the ship when this happened normally doesn't even work on ferries of this size or something. Furthermore, majority of the crew were part-timers with basically the minimum training possible. Last but not least, the actual captain of the ship supposedly approached the owner of the ferry saying there is an issue with the balance of the ship or something of the sort (the vessel actually tilted slightly to one side months before this happened) but the owner chose not to carry out a proper investigation / maintenance work suggested by the captain to save money.
Yes. I was about to post this like last week, but I think someone from SK have to do it. Anyway.. This is really sad, seeing that the majority of the ship was still on top of the water and the rescuers already there, I can't imagine how did they let that happen .
Yes, the ship had additional cabins built on the upper decks without addressing any balance concerns. As for the third mate, doesn't the captain just punch in some numbers for the auto pilot and have it execute the turn. All the guy would do is watch the auto pilot.
I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up similarly to the mall collapse in Korea a few years ago where people decided to refit something without considering the engineering limits. It is another reason to not completely demonize the crew out of the gate. If every time a shipping company does something unsafe to a ship but the captain gets most of the blame, how do you prevent the companies from doing something stupid again?
That's not to say the crew wasn't partially or fully responsible, its just another thing to consider.
The 20-year-old vessel was reportedly renovated in 2012 and two cabins were added, making it top-heavy
The ill-fated Korean ferry Sewol was overloaded and its crew appears to have broken several other safety guidelines, possibly resulting in its sinking last Wednesday, sources have said.
Divers made multiple trips to the ferry to recover bodies yesterday, in what is one of South Korea's worst disasters in recent memory.
Since late Saturday, rescue workers recovered 29 bodies from inside the ferry and nearby waters off the coast of Jindo Island, South Jeolla Province.
As of 6pm yesterday, the death toll stood at 58, while 244 remained missing.
The 20-year-old vessel was reportedly renovated in 2012, after it was purchased from a Japanese ferry company. Two cabins were added to the back, possibly making it top-heavy, experts claimed.
Though it was not illegal to extend a ship vertically, it could exert greater weight and pressure on the vessel, experts said.
In the Sewol's case, its capacity was increased 14 per cent and is believed to have become 239 tonnes heavier.
"Because the ship was heavier, there is the chance that the crew loaded less ballast water, which is needed to balance the ship," said a Korean Register of Shipping official.
"This may have made the ship unable to recover from the initial tilting."
Park Soo-han, chief executive of shipping parts compnay KCC Corporation, said: "If the top becomes heavier, you need to add more weight to the bottom to make it steady but I don't think that was the case with the Sewol."
Others have suggested that the Sewol load of vehicles and cargo was heavier than what was reported, which could have been a major factor in it sinking.
According to the radio correspondent log, the Sewol reported 450 passengers, 150 vehicles and 657 tonnes of cargo to the Korea Shipping Association.
After the accident, the company revealed the actual numbers were 477 passengers, 124 passenger cars, 22 one-tonne trucks, 34 cargo trucks of more than 2.5-tonne capacity, and 1,157 tonnes of cargo.
The Sewol had a legal capacity of 921 passengers, 180 vehicles and 154 regular cargo containers.
However, heavy trailer drivers carrying more than 30 tonnes of materials each could make freight even heavier.
"Heavy vehicles and their loads weren't examined before they were loaded on the Sewol," a truck driver told reporters.
"Because the Sewol is lax when it comes to overloading, many cargo owners prefer taking the Sewol than to drive all the way to Mokpo in South Jeolla Province and take a ship there."
Sources said that if the heavy cargo were not properly tied down it could have caused the ship to tip over after it titled.
Some people allegedly heard containers fall and roll over.
"If this is true, then the cargo might have upset the weight distribution. It could have accelerated the tipping over process," said Professor Lee Sang-yoon of Pukyung National University.
On April 23 2014 01:55 -Archangel- wrote: What I don't understand in this whole disaster is why didn't rescue services try to save people trapped inside as soon as they arrived?
From media reports, the first rescuers to arrive were basically fishing boats and they did try. Accounts are of crew breaking windows on the sinking ship to pull people trapped below.
On April 23 2014 01:55 -Archangel- wrote: What I don't understand in this whole disaster is why didn't rescue services try to save people trapped inside as soon as they arrived?
From media reports, the first rescuers to arrive were basically fishing boats and they did try. Accounts are of crew breaking windows on the sinking ship to pull people trapped below.
And when did first professional rescue team arrive?
Why didn't any try to cut through the hull?
I am asking this because media in my country only reported as if divers finding dead bodies inside the ship days after it all happened which is fucking terrible if it is true. If it is true, it sounds like this accident was not taken seriously.
Because if you cut through the hull more water rushes in and the ship sinks more. Also, exactly how do you cut through a hull? A hull is designed so that it's difficult to be cut through, for obvious reasons.
On April 23 2014 05:29 marigoldran wrote: Because if you cut through the hull more water rushes in and the ship sinks more. Also, exactly how do you cut through a hull? A hull is designed so that it's difficult to be cut through, for obvious reasons.
I believe he means if a ship capsizes then having to cut through what use to be the submerged surface is now above the water line to pull any potential survivors out.
On April 23 2014 05:29 marigoldran wrote: Because if you cut through the hull more water rushes in and the ship sinks more. Also, exactly how do you cut through a hull? A hull is designed so that it's difficult to be cut through, for obvious reasons.
I believe he means if a ship capsizes then having to cut through what use to be the submerged surface is now above the water line to pull any potential survivors out.
Yes, that is what I meant. But as I said, I am wondering if any meaningful rescue attempt was done on first day of accident.
It just pains me whenever I wake up and check the internet, only to see that the number of deceased has gone up once again. Imagining seventeen year old teenagers, trapped by the heavy, dull metal of the sunken ferry, freezing from icy water, and surrounded by nothing but darkness just makes me shed a tear...
Too many lives were lost in this tragedy and it's beginning to look like the reason is because the ferry company wanted to bypass safety regulations in order to save/earn more money. The captain is not the only one to blame here (although his actions were terrible).
On April 23 2014 05:29 marigoldran wrote: Because if you cut through the hull more water rushes in and the ship sinks more. Also, exactly how do you cut through a hull? A hull is designed so that it's difficult to be cut through, for obvious reasons.
I believe he means if a ship capsizes then having to cut through what use to be the submerged surface is now above the water line to pull any potential survivors out.
Yes, that is what I meant. But as I said, I am wondering if any meaningful rescue attempt was done on first day of accident.
If you cut a hole in the bottom them it would sink rather than do the bob upside down thing its doing right now. They would have probably done it if it rolled in shallow water. Its what they did with some of the battleships sunk at pearl harbor.
The ship is upside down, which means the center of gravity is already messed up. If you take a big machine (and exactly how would you get the big machine to the ship?) and cut through the ship, you'll mess up the center of gravity of the ship even more, which could make the situation worse.
Damaging an already damaged ship is rarely a good idea.
I'm not a great ship rescue mind, but cutting a hole in the hull would seem to potentially open up a lot of side effects that could make the situation even worse. Center of gravity as states above, you're essentially giving room for any air keeping the ship buoyant a place to escape which could let water rush in and sink it faster, you've got to have a crane to lift the cut piece away or it might fall on people you're trying to save inside, it falling might further disrupt the center of gravity or structural integrity of the ship. Not to mention the possibility of starting a fire with falling molten steel inside of the ship and the last thing you want on a ship is a fire. The whole situation is a shit sandwich. I don't think that pointing a finger at the people actively trying to save folks is the right thing. I don't see how they should be taking a single iota of blame in any capacity.
The situation sucks, I think there's plenty of blame to go around on the front end of the situation with the captain, potentially the crew, and the owner of the ship. My heart goes out to the people who perished and their families, that's an awful way to go.
It's just sad, thinking about it. As the boat capsized, surely there were hundreds of people still alive, and yet trapped in compartments that were slowly running out of air and filling up with water. Meanwhile, lots of rescue crews on the outside, but nothing they can do, really, to help the people inside, who, over the course of the next few hours or even days, will die a slow death....
That's so awful. I guess that degree of helplessness, for help to be so close and yet so far away, is why people are questioning why more couldn't be done. We think we're so technologically advanced, and then something like this just goes to show the limits to what we can do.
On April 23 2014 12:02 OuchyDathurts wrote: I'm not a great ship rescue mind, but cutting a hole in the hull would seem to potentially open up a lot of side effects that could make the situation even worse. Center of gravity as states above, you're essentially giving room for any air keeping the ship buoyant a place to escape which could let water rush in and sink it faster, you've got to have a crane to lift the cut piece away or it might fall on people you're trying to save inside, it falling might further disrupt the center of gravity or structural integrity of the ship. Not to mention the possibility of starting a fire with falling molten steel inside of the ship and the last thing you want on a ship is a fire. The whole situation is a shit sandwich. I don't think that pointing a finger at the people actively trying to save folks is the right thing. I don't see how they should be taking a single iota of blame in any capacity.
The situation sucks, I think there's plenty of blame to go around on the front end of the situation with the captain, potentially the crew, and the owner of the ship. My heart goes out to the people who perished and their families, that's an awful way to go.
It depends if there were useful actions to take that were not taken in time. Personally I don't know much about rescue operations, that is why I am asking here. It just seems strange to me that divers would go inside days later when anyone inside that somehow survived would have suffocated by then
On April 23 2014 13:33 Warlock40 wrote: It's just sad, thinking about it. As the boat capsized, surely there were hundreds of people still alive, and yet trapped in compartments that were slowly running out of air and filling up with water. Meanwhile, lots of rescue crews on the outside, but nothing they can do, really, to help the people inside, who, over the course of the next few hours or even days, will die a slow death....
That's so awful. I guess that degree of helplessness, for help to be so close and yet so far away, is why people are questioning why more couldn't be done. We think we're so technologically advanced, and then something like this just goes to show the limits to what we can do.
That's pretty much it, you watch movies and TV shows where problems are overcome under severe time constraints. Then rescue crews have 5+ days to work something out but can't do shit. Horrible thinking about kids waiting for rescue for days and it just wasn't coming.
What I learned from this is that if people in charge tell you to trust them and do what they say during a large scale accident, you should do opposite. If these passengers didn't go back to their cabins like they were told, much more of them would have survived.
On April 23 2014 19:19 -Archangel- wrote: What I learned from this is that if people in charge tell you to trust them and do what they say during a large scale accident, you should do opposite. If these passengers didn't go back to their cabins like they were told, much more of them would have survived.
I hope you realize the vast majority of cases when emergency services try to coordinate disaster rescue and relief, individuals not following plans told to them can jeopardize the safety of everybody around them, and that in the vast majority of cases (accidents happen on a hourly basis around the world) following said instructions saves lives?
On April 23 2014 19:19 -Archangel- wrote: What I learned from this is that if people in charge tell you to trust them and do what they say during a large scale accident, you should do opposite.
Normally you should trust the professional who has far more information available and experience than yourself. Sadly in this case the person in charge was an incompetent 69 yr old part timer.
On April 23 2014 13:33 Warlock40 wrote: It's just sad, thinking about it. As the boat capsized, surely there were hundreds of people still alive, and yet trapped in compartments that were slowly running out of air and filling up with water. Meanwhile, lots of rescue crews on the outside, but nothing they can do, really, to help the people inside, who, over the course of the next few hours or even days, will die a slow death....
That's so awful. I guess that degree of helplessness, for help to be so close and yet so far away, is why people are questioning why more couldn't be done. We think we're so technologically advanced, and then something like this just goes to show the limits to what we can do.
That's pretty much it, you watch movies and TV shows where problems are overcome under severe time constraints. Then rescue crews have 5+ days to work something out but can't do shit. Horrible thinking about kids waiting for rescue for days and it just wasn't coming.
Didn't think it needed to be said but there is a big difference between movies and TV shows and real life.
On April 23 2014 19:19 -Archangel- wrote: What I learned from this is that if people in charge tell you to trust them and do what they say during a large scale accident, you should do opposite. If these passengers didn't go back to their cabins like they were told, much more of them would have survived.
I hope you realize the vast majority of cases when emergency services try to coordinate disaster rescue and relief, individuals not following plans told to them can jeopardize the safety of everybody around them, and that in the vast majority of cases (accidents happen on a hourly basis around the world) following said instructions saves lives?
I am not talking about emergency services, but officers on the boat. I doubt these guys had more experience with this kind of accidents than passengers. They only should have had a training in protocols in these situations. Personally I will rather trust myself then other people protocols. What is the worse thing it can happen? I will die either way.
This is one of the saddest incidents that can happen. All those young high school kids, trapped in a sinking ship that's tilting and unable to escape because of following orders. They all had long lives ahead, now ended because of a man who basically ordered them to die.
I shudder to imagine the chaos and fear inside the ship, trapped with water rising and knowing your dead in a few minutes from drowning. The crew, especially the captain needs to be held accountable, the president had the right idea calling him a murderer.
On April 23 2014 13:33 Warlock40 wrote: It's just sad, thinking about it. As the boat capsized, surely there were hundreds of people still alive, and yet trapped in compartments that were slowly running out of air and filling up with water. Meanwhile, lots of rescue crews on the outside, but nothing they can do, really, to help the people inside, who, over the course of the next few hours or even days, will die a slow death....
That's so awful. I guess that degree of helplessness, for help to be so close and yet so far away, is why people are questioning why more couldn't be done. We think we're so technologically advanced, and then something like this just goes to show the limits to what we can do.
That's pretty much it, you watch movies and TV shows where problems are overcome under severe time constraints. Then rescue crews have 5+ days to work something out but can't do shit. Horrible thinking about kids waiting for rescue for days and it just wasn't coming.
Didn't think it needed to be said but there is a big difference between movies and TV shows and real life.
No shit. I was talking more about the stark contrast between our cultural idea of rescue and this helpless reality. Of course it's not like a movie but many would expect being saved by on-scene rescuers to be a race against time, not an impossibility. It's unusual for there to be a situation where people are dying nearby over the course of a week and we can't even make progress towards saving them.
On April 23 2014 19:19 -Archangel- wrote: What I learned from this is that if people in charge tell you to trust them and do what they say during a large scale accident, you should do opposite.
Normally you should trust the professional who has far more information available and experience than yourself. Sadly in this case the person in charge was an incompetent 69 yr old part timer.
Yeah, normally in cases of huge tragedies, I shake my head in sadness at how our instinct to panic and run can ultimately cause the death of us - for example, reading about any kind of disaster that involves many people getting stampeded to death, I tend to think, if only those people had just followed directions and had an orderly evacuation, there wouldn't have been so many needless deaths. And yet in this case, it would appear that doing that ended up being the fatal decision.
This is terrible and i am totally confused by what happened. They had enough time to get out on the top deck and be ready to jump in the water (if the situation would push them to it) and the fact that only 2 lifeboats out of 46 were used is just mind-boggling. Sure almost 500 people is alot, but still most of them would have much better chance of surviving if they just got to the outside of the ship.
I understand that the order was to stay in the cabin, but come on....What makes you thing it is a good idea to stay in a cabin of a sinking ship? There is not a single scenario where it would be better to stay put instead of trying to get outside. Knowing myself i would definately say Fuck that and got the fuck out of there asap.
I fail to see any good reason for the captain to order that everyone stay put. I mean if they would say: we are experiencing some problems and there is a possibilty we will have to evacuate the ship. Everyone please grab safety vest and gather outside on the deck.
The only logical reason i see is that the captain believed until the last moment, that he will be able to recover the ship and didn't want to cause panic which just shows that his training/experience was lacking.
I think that overloading, overextending the ship's capacity, neglecting safety measures are the thing to blame for this accident. Sure the captain made bad calls and was an idiot, but i would not call him a murderer. Murder is something with intention behind it, this was a terrible accident that happened due to idiocy/inexperience/neglecting of the captain, but not intended.
I still get this feeling of dread whenever I update myself on the news articles... What a terrible way to die. I rode my bike down to Ansan the other night... Didn't find/see the school, but I can just imagine it. My school also had field trips planned this week and last, but they've all been cancelled because no parent wants to send their child away at a time like this... especially since it's the same kind of trip that has killed all these kids.
On April 23 2014 23:06 Ricjames wrote: I think that overloading, overextending the ship's capacity, neglecting safety measures are the thing to blame for this accident. Sure the captain made bad calls and was an idiot, but i would not call him a murderer. Murder is something with intention behind it, this was a terrible accident that happened due to idiocy/inexperience/neglecting of the captain, but not intended.
Murder with intention is a harsher kind of murder that you get a bigger punishment for, but you can murder people with just being stupid. Like if you fire a gun into the air, the bullet will come down somewhere and if it kills someone that is also murder even if you never met that person before.
But if you drive a car down the road and not breaking any laws, and a person runs in front of your car and you hit the person and kill it, that is not murder.
In the case of this boat tragedy, it would be murder if the captain with his actions (or lack of) caused the deaths of people. If someone fell overboard during the voyage and died that would not be a murder.
On April 23 2014 23:06 Ricjames wrote: I think that overloading, overextending the ship's capacity, neglecting safety measures are the thing to blame for this accident. Sure the captain made bad calls and was an idiot, but i would not call him a murderer. Murder is something with intention behind it, this was a terrible accident that happened due to idiocy/inexperience/neglecting of the captain, but not intended.
Murder with intention is a harsher kind of murder that you get a bigger punishment for, but you can murder people with just being stupid. Like if you fire a gun into the air, the bullet will come down somewhere and if it kills someone that is also murder even if you never met that person before.
But if you drive a car down the road and not breaking any laws, and a person runs in front of your car and you hit the person and kill it, that is not murder.
In the case of this boat tragedy, it would be murder if the captain with his actions (or lack of) caused the deaths of people. If someone fell overboard during the voyage and died that would not be a murder.
I think it would really depend on SK's definitions of murder/manslaughter, and if they even have a distinction between the two. In the US a line exists between murder and manslaughter and that line is usually malicious intent. So in the example you provided with firing the gun in the air, it would be involuntary manslaughter in the US, rather than murder, since there was no intent.
A lawyer can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the US it goes something like this.
Manslaughter: I did something that I didn't know could potentially kill someone and someone died.
Second Degree Murder (Murder 2): I didn't intend to kill someone, but I did something that I know could potentially kill someone and I did it anyway, someone died.
First Degree Murder (Murder 1): I fully intended to kill someone, it was premeditated, someone died.
Capital Murder: Murder 1 with another felony involved in the crime, rape, robbery, etc.
On April 24 2014 04:09 OuchyDathurts wrote: A lawyer can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the US it goes something like this.
Manslaughter: I did something that I didn't know could potentially kill someone and someone died.
Second Degree Murder (Murder 2): I didn't intend to kill someone, but I did something that I know could potentially kill someone and I did it anyway, someone died.
First Degree Murder (Murder 1): I fully intended to kill someone, it was premeditated, someone died.
Capital Murder: Murder 1 with another felony involved in the crime, rape, robbery, etc.
I'm no lawyer either but pretty sure second degree murder is an intentional murder as it is murder.
On April 24 2014 04:09 OuchyDathurts wrote: A lawyer can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the US it goes something like this.
Manslaughter: I did something that I didn't know could potentially kill someone and someone died.
Second Degree Murder (Murder 2): I didn't intend to kill someone, but I did something that I know could potentially kill someone and I did it anyway, someone died.
First Degree Murder (Murder 1): I fully intended to kill someone, it was premeditated, someone died.
Capital Murder: Murder 1 with another felony involved in the crime, rape, robbery, etc.
Murder is killing someone when you intended to either kill someone or create a situation where someone was very likely to die (like firing a machine gun into a crowd). First degree murder is premeditated, second degree murder is spur-of-the-moment.
Manslaughter comes in two types: intentional and unintentional. Intentional manslaughter is like second-degree murder, except it is committed under conditions that would "cause a reasonable man to be emotionally or mentally disturbed." (Example: say you killed your wife during the heat of the moment after an argument. Second-degree murder. Say your caught your wife having sex with another man, then killed her. Intentional manslaughter.) Unintentional manslaughter is killing someone when you didn't intend to kill someone or create a situation where someone was very likely to die.
Just a disclaimer for anyone reading this: you may notice that there are many potential cases where a crime could be interpreted as different degrees of murder or manslaughter, depending on someone's opinion. This is intentional. The letter of the law is vague, so that the specifics can be determined through precedents set in court cases. I would assume that only SK lawyers know enough about SK laws and court cases to be able to speculate on what kind of charges the captain can potentially face.
On April 24 2014 05:51 lantz wrote: I just canceled my cruise I had planned in a month!
I hope it wasn't because of this because that would be irrational. Events like this are rare. Sure, we had this accident and that Italian disaster (which was an actual cruise line). Oh captain my captain. -.-
The more I read about this case in the Korean media the more I see the severity of negligence and lack of responsibility within the country. It's astounding how a captain could just abandon his passengers and leave them to die without even a chance to survive, and took the unsafe route for the sake of time. I hope this case really opens the eyes of Koreans about how deep this problem is rooted cause there have been other cases similar to this in the country (a Daegu subway caught fire and the conductor locked the emergency doors and fled) and I feel awful knowing the parents, family and friends of the deceased have to see their family dead all cause of a few bad people.
On April 24 2014 08:36 PhoenixVoid wrote: The more I read about this case in the Korean media the more I see the severity of negligence and lack of responsibility within the country.
Whoah, 1 dodgy ferry and a bad subway driver doesn`t mean you can slander an entire nation. There are incompetent cowards and dodgy companies worldwide.
On April 24 2014 08:36 PhoenixVoid wrote: The more I read about this case in the Korean media the more I see the severity of negligence and lack of responsibility within the country.
Whoah, 1 dodgy ferry and a bad subway driver doesn`t mean you can slander an entire nation. There are incompetent cowards and dodgy companies worldwide.
I'm frankly surprised you would even suggest I would call my own people what I described a few bad people within the country. But you do have to think that as a repeat case like this there is a problem in the country regardless of how widespread it is worldwide.
On April 24 2014 08:36 PhoenixVoid wrote: The more I read about this case in the Korean media the more I see the severity of negligence and lack of responsibility within the country.
Whoah, 1 dodgy ferry and a bad subway driver doesn`t mean you can slander an entire nation. There are incompetent cowards and dodgy companies worldwide.
I'm frankly surprised you would even suggest I would call my own people what I described a few bad people within the country. But you do have to think that as a repeat case like this there is a problem in the country regardless of how widespread it is worldwide.
2 cases of driver/captain error does not constitute a nationwide problem in such a populated country. I don't even know when this subway thing was, how long ago was it?
Also your english made it sound like you were generalizing, sorry if you didn't mean it that way.
To me, what is really surprising about this whole thing is the shame South Korea feels.
I don't really feel bad for South Korea in regard this, I feel bad for the United States. We feel no shame after disasters. After a terrible school massacre, fraud by massive companies or a completely unnecessary chemical spill that poisons the water supply and destroys the environment? Nope, none at all! That is the price of our ridiculous laws, and we have no intention of changing them to prevent another disaster (if we did, we would have changed them!). No one cares, no feel ashamed, no one feels traumatized because it happens so much now in the United States. It is just standard business now. We have no pride left about our country, no drive to ever make sure a disaster never repeats itself again on our soil.
Joongang Ilbo concluded with a scathing self-criticism that, “A nation’s standards and capability is tested when disaster and crisis come by. Our country’s level is a failing grade and of a third-class country.”
“Koreans are very nationalistic and they take pride in the rapid development of their country. When there’s some problem or anything that reflects poorly on the collective, on the nation or Koreans on the whole, people will get upset about it,” said Daniel Pinkson, head of International Crisis Group in Seoul.
You have to admit that something went wrong before you can fix. It actually gives me a lot of hope that Korea feels traumatized and shamed. It sounds like they will come down hard on those who did this and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Korea will be a better country because of it. I just wish the US had some pride left too.
Pretty dissapointed at my own country after this incident. Few points I want to mention.
1) How selfishly the three big main TV stations in Korea jumped on this incident to increase their viewership. spilling lies, asking rude/uncurteous questions to the survivors.
2) How poorly the rescue mission was managed. There was no "leader" in charge that controlled the situation. This is drastically comparable to how well chilians handled the situation when 33 miners were trapped underground. There was a lot of time wasted doing "NOTHING". The first few days were divers going in and out of the water for 10 minutes at a time. If those miners were trapped in Korea..... welll.. let's just not go there.
I feel bad for the United States. We feel no shame after disasters. After a terrible school massacre, fraud by massive companies or a completely unnecessary chemical spill that poisons the water supply and destroys the environment? Nope, none at all! That is the price of our ridiculous laws, and we have no intention of changing them to prevent another disaster (if we did, we would have changed them!). No one cares, no feel ashamed, no one feels traumatized because it happens so much now in the United States. It is just standard business now. We have no pride left about our country, no drive to ever make sure a disaster never repeats itself again on our soil.
.
This isn't the thread to bash your own county with events totally unrelated.
For what it's worth, my deepest sympathies go out to the people in S. Korea, I wish I had more to say but I get a little choked up even thinking about it.
On April 25 2014 01:35 BronzeKnee wrote: To me, what is really surprising about this whole thing is the shame South Korea feels.
I don't really feel bad for South Korea in regard this, I feel bad for the United States. We feel no shame after disasters. After a terrible school massacre, fraud by massive companies or a completely unnecessary chemical spill that poisons the water supply and destroys the environment? Nope, none at all!
...You have to admit that something went wrong before you can fix. It actually gives me a lot of hope that Korea feels traumatized and shamed. It sounds like they will come down hard on those who did this and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Korea will be a better country because of it. I just wish the US had some pride left too.
But it doesn't even make sense for an entire country to feel shame, I'm sorry to say but nationalism in general is kind of stupid. The whole notion of considering the entire population of the United States (or any other country) as blameworthy somehow whenever one accident occurs is *completely* insane. No nation is some sort of hive mind that is responsible for every member's actions. Maybe you used the wrong word and you meant 'sad' or 'traumatized', but then of course in both cases it would be plain wrong as is clearly demonstrated by the massive American response to Sandy Hook, the Boston Marathon bombings, or the Deepwater Horizon oil spill amongst many other tragedies/disasters.
Beyond this, there are always going to be events that you simply can not prevent no matter how well regulated your country is, there are no laws so strong that they play the role of some omnipotent, omniscient God (and neither would anyone *want* them as it would imply a police state of the likes we have never seen before). So the argument isn't so binary as you think even if you accept the premise that feeling shameful is a rational response.
But lastly shame isn't even a necessary precursor to making meaningful change. Why do you have to flagrantly describe to the world how shameful and horrified you are for change to happen? Its completely unnecessary. People can easily have a measured emotional response and still make serious changes.
Also feeling shame doesn't even necessarily equate to action, if you have a very powerful group that through monetary donations tends to drown out independent voices (and through lobbying in the government), then you could simply be overpowered by the people in power. I'm pretty sure Occupy Wall street was a pretty significant response, and they probably tried to do something, but if you have no clear message or action plan (nay, not even *leaders* for your movement) and you're fighting against entrenched power then its probably not going to do a whole lot.
Besides which those are all fairly complex issues as the US is different in many ways from other country, whether you're talking about gun control or economic change. To just simplify it all to a simple issue of shame is really not justified or reasonable to me, they're pretty multifaceted issues you're talking about, not just the sinking of a ferry
On April 25 2014 01:35 BronzeKnee wrote: To me, what is really surprising about this whole thing is the shame South Korea feels.
I don't really feel bad for South Korea in regard this, I feel bad for the United States. We feel no shame after disasters. After a terrible school massacre, fraud by massive companies or a completely unnecessary chemical spill that poisons the water supply and destroys the environment? Nope, none at all!
...You have to admit that something went wrong before you can fix. It actually gives me a lot of hope that Korea feels traumatized and shamed. It sounds like they will come down hard on those who did this and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Korea will be a better country because of it. I just wish the US had some pride left too.
But it doesn't even make sense for an entire country to feel shame, I'm sorry to say but nationalism in general is kind of stupid. The whole notion of considering the entire population of the United States (or any other country) as blameworthy somehow whenever one accident occurs is *completely* insane. No nation is some sort of hive mind that is responsible for every member's actions. Maybe you used the wrong word and you meant 'sad' or 'traumatized', but then of course in both cases it would be plain wrong as is clearly demonstrated by the massive American response to Sandy Hook, the Boston Marathon bombings, or the Deepwater Horizon oil spill amongst many other tragedies/disasters.
Beyond this, there are always going to be events that you simply can not prevent no matter how well regulated your country is, there are no laws so strong that they play the role of some omnipotent, omniscient God (and neither would anyone *want* them as it would imply a police state of the likes we have never seen before). So the argument isn't so binary as you think even if you accept the premise that feeling shameful is a rational response.
But lastly shame isn't even a necessary precursor to making meaningful change. Why do you have to flagrantly describe to the world how shameful and horrified you are for change to happen? Its completely unnecessary. People can easily have a measured emotional response and still make serious changes.
Also feeling shame doesn't even necessarily equate to action, if you have a very powerful group that through monetary donations tends to drown out independent voices (and through lobbying in the government), then you could simply be overpowered by the people in power. I'm pretty sure Occupy Wall street was a pretty significant response, and they probably tried to do something, but if you have no clear message or action plan (nay, not even *leaders* for your movement) and you're fighting against entrenched power then its probably not going to do a whole lot.
Besides which those are all fairly complex issues as the US is different in many ways from other country, whether you're talking about gun control or economic change. To just simplify it all to a simple issue of shame is really not justified or reasonable to me, they're pretty multifaceted issues you're talking about, not just the sinking of a ferry
its quiet hard to explain nationalism, may i ask if you have any pride for your country? i ask because somewhere so multicultural like USA, sense of national pride is really different. one ethnicity and different nation, mix of many ethnicity, same nation same ethnicity, etc.
i'm not even technically a korean anymore but im still quiet nationalistic, not as much someone else, but i understand where it comes from. i'm quiet outspoken on my opinions but a story like this i've been holding my tongue amongst my friends because it feels shameful and can only be negative about it, not of the event but how it was handled from the ship's crew to government's response to help.
i only hope they learn from this and set up better regulations, though i dont think thats the issue, its the execution and mindset. by korean maritime law its a crime for a captain to abandon ship without caring for passengers, clearly this captain had no fucking idea. though there are regulations and laws, they're not executed well. korea can build ships but it seems they dont know how to use it properly.
crew told passengers to stay where they are while they evacuated, this is fucking mind boggling, including the people that listened to the crew despite not making sense. early calls of help came from passengers on their cell, not the ship. something is seriously fucked up.
on a side note, the media is chewing up the parent company's CEO, supposedly the ceo helped create a church, has 20,000 members and media is not accusing, but talk of possibility of money laundering and also the captain of the ship is linked to this church. media is also linking a relationship between the ceo and one of past worst korean president, "opinionizing" how the ceo got his wealth, probably due to the connection with this said ex-president. showing off the company's resort in the country side saying how big and grand it is. media is on witch hunt frenzy, puts TLers vs naniwa to shame. who knows, maybe there really is something shady going on, like if the captain became captain thanks to some people. (CEO now under investigation for many, many things)
On April 25 2014 01:35 BronzeKnee wrote: To me, what is really surprising about this whole thing is the shame South Korea feels.
I don't really feel bad for South Korea in regard this, I feel bad for the United States. We feel no shame after disasters. After a terrible school massacre, fraud by massive companies or a completely unnecessary chemical spill that poisons the water supply and destroys the environment? Nope, none at all! That is the price of our ridiculous laws, and we have no intention of changing them to prevent another disaster (if we did, we would have changed them!). No one cares, no feel ashamed, no one feels traumatized because it happens so much now in the United States. It is just standard business now. We have no pride left about our country, no drive to ever make sure a disaster never repeats itself again on our soil.
Joongang Ilbo concluded with a scathing self-criticism that, “A nation’s standards and capability is tested when disaster and crisis come by. Our country’s level is a failing grade and of a third-class country.”
“Koreans are very nationalistic and they take pride in the rapid development of their country. When there’s some problem or anything that reflects poorly on the collective, on the nation or Koreans on the whole, people will get upset about it,” said Daniel Pinkson, head of International Crisis Group in Seoul.
You have to admit that something went wrong before you can fix. It actually gives me a lot of hope that Korea feels traumatized and shamed. It sounds like they will come down hard on those who did this and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Korea will be a better country because of it. I just wish the US had some pride left too.
I see how you might feel that way, but you've got the completely wrong idea about this. The Koreans feel this way not because something bad happened, but because they are so utterly unprepared for a situation like this. They've had bridges and buildings collapsed, an airplane crashed, and now a boat capsized, and what is their response to each situation? It is the same old story. That's why they feel the way they do now.
At least in the US, when bad things happen, the response is there in a coordinated and facilitated manner. And when it gets messed up, people are held responsible for it. It's not the same story here in Korea.
Apolgoize but what happen to cause the boat to sink? It is a sad thought of what the Captain did and it is interesting to read the Maritime laws that there is no law that the Captain has to stay intill the boat sinks. I also believe that Captain, yes should be punished but I do pity him seeing how that people are going to seriously pester him and basically make him feel like shit for this rest of his entire life.
On April 25 2014 01:35 BronzeKnee wrote: To me, what is really surprising about this whole thing is the shame South Korea feels.
I don't really feel bad for South Korea in regard this, I feel bad for the United States. We feel no shame after disasters. After a terrible school massacre, fraud by massive companies or a completely unnecessary chemical spill that poisons the water supply and destroys the environment? Nope, none at all!
...You have to admit that something went wrong before you can fix. It actually gives me a lot of hope that Korea feels traumatized and shamed. It sounds like they will come down hard on those who did this and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Korea will be a better country because of it. I just wish the US had some pride left too.
But it doesn't even make sense for an entire country to feel shame, I'm sorry to say but nationalism in general is kind of stupid. The whole notion of considering the entire population of the United States (or any other country) as blameworthy somehow whenever one accident occurs is *completely* insane. No nation is some sort of hive mind that is responsible for every member's actions. Maybe you used the wrong word and you meant 'sad' or 'traumatized', but then of course in both cases it would be plain wrong as is clearly demonstrated by the massive American response to Sandy Hook, the Boston Marathon bombings, or the Deepwater Horizon oil spill amongst many other tragedies/disasters.
Beyond this, there are always going to be events that you simply can not prevent no matter how well regulated your country is, there are no laws so strong that they play the role of some omnipotent, omniscient God (and neither would anyone *want* them as it would imply a police state of the likes we have never seen before). So the argument isn't so binary as you think even if you accept the premise that feeling shameful is a rational response.
But lastly shame isn't even a necessary precursor to making meaningful change. Why do you have to flagrantly describe to the world how shameful and horrified you are for change to happen? Its completely unnecessary. People can easily have a measured emotional response and still make serious changes.
Also feeling shame doesn't even necessarily equate to action, if you have a very powerful group that through monetary donations tends to drown out independent voices (and through lobbying in the government), then you could simply be overpowered by the people in power. I'm pretty sure Occupy Wall street was a pretty significant response, and they probably tried to do something, but if you have no clear message or action plan (nay, not even *leaders* for your movement) and you're fighting against entrenched power then its probably not going to do a whole lot.
Besides which those are all fairly complex issues as the US is different in many ways from other country, whether you're talking about gun control or economic change. To just simplify it all to a simple issue of shame is really not justified or reasonable to me, they're pretty multifaceted issues you're talking about, not just the sinking of a ferry
its quiet hard to explain nationalism, may i ask if you have any pride for your country? i ask because somewhere so multicultural like USA, sense of national pride is really different. one ethnicity and different nation, mix of many ethnicity, same nation same ethnicity, etc.
i'm not even technically a korean anymore but im still quiet nationalistic, not as much someone else, but i understand where it comes from. i'm quiet outspoken on my opinions but a story like this i've been holding my tongue amongst my friends because it feels shameful and can only be negative about it, not of the event but how it was handled from the ship's crew to government's response to help.
i only hope they learn from this and set up better regulations, though i dont think thats the issue, its the execution and mindset. by korean maritime law its a crime for a captain to abandon ship without caring for passengers, clearly this captain had no fucking idea. though there are regulations and laws, they're not executed well. korea can build ships but it seems they dont know how to use it properly.
crew told passengers to stay where they are while they evacuated, this is fucking mind boggling, including the people that listened to the crew despite not making sense. early calls of help came from passengers on their cell, not the ship. something is seriously fucked up.
on a side note, the media is chewing up the parent company's CEO, supposedly the ceo helped create a church, has 20,000 members and media is not accusing, but talk of possibility of money laundering and also the captain of the ship is linked to this church. media is also linking a relationship between the ceo and one of past worst korean president, "opinionizing" how the ceo got his wealth, probably due to the connection with this said ex-president. showing off the company's resort in the country side saying how big and grand it is. media is on witch hunt frenzy, puts TLers vs naniwa to shame. who knows, maybe there really is something shady going on, like if the captain became captain thanks to some people. (CEO now under investigation for many, many things)
Regarding the ship: I have read that it is a Japanese built ship but the company modified it to.make it a lot heavier. I think thats the shadiest part of it all. Why change a perfectly fine built ship in the first place?
Just read from CNN news that a diver found 48 dead girls in the same cabin all wearing life vests.. Holy shit how fucking terrible it must've been for them.
On April 25 2014 01:35 BronzeKnee wrote: To me, what is really surprising about this whole thing is the shame South Korea feels.
I don't really feel bad for South Korea in regard this, I feel bad for the United States. We feel no shame after disasters. After a terrible school massacre, fraud by massive companies or a completely unnecessary chemical spill that poisons the water supply and destroys the environment? Nope, none at all!
...You have to admit that something went wrong before you can fix. It actually gives me a lot of hope that Korea feels traumatized and shamed. It sounds like they will come down hard on those who did this and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Korea will be a better country because of it. I just wish the US had some pride left too.
But it doesn't even make sense for an entire country to feel shame, I'm sorry to say but nationalism in general is kind of stupid. The whole notion of considering the entire population of the United States (or any other country) as blameworthy somehow whenever one accident occurs is *completely* insane. No nation is some sort of hive mind that is responsible for every member's actions. Maybe you used the wrong word and you meant 'sad' or 'traumatized', but then of course in both cases it would be plain wrong as is clearly demonstrated by the massive American response to Sandy Hook, the Boston Marathon bombings, or the Deepwater Horizon oil spill amongst many other tragedies/disasters.
Beyond this, there are always going to be events that you simply can not prevent no matter how well regulated your country is, there are no laws so strong that they play the role of some omnipotent, omniscient God (and neither would anyone *want* them as it would imply a police state of the likes we have never seen before). So the argument isn't so binary as you think even if you accept the premise that feeling shameful is a rational response.
But lastly shame isn't even a necessary precursor to making meaningful change. Why do you have to flagrantly describe to the world how shameful and horrified you are for change to happen? Its completely unnecessary. People can easily have a measured emotional response and still make serious changes.
Also feeling shame doesn't even necessarily equate to action, if you have a very powerful group that through monetary donations tends to drown out independent voices (and through lobbying in the government), then you could simply be overpowered by the people in power. I'm pretty sure Occupy Wall street was a pretty significant response, and they probably tried to do something, but if you have no clear message or action plan (nay, not even *leaders* for your movement) and you're fighting against entrenched power then its probably not going to do a whole lot.
Besides which those are all fairly complex issues as the US is different in many ways from other country, whether you're talking about gun control or economic change. To just simplify it all to a simple issue of shame is really not justified or reasonable to me, they're pretty multifaceted issues you're talking about, not just the sinking of a ferry
its quiet hard to explain nationalism, may i ask if you have any pride for your country? i ask because somewhere so multicultural like USA, sense of national pride is really different. one ethnicity and different nation, mix of many ethnicity, same nation same ethnicity, etc.
i'm not even technically a korean anymore but im still quiet nationalistic, not as much someone else, but i understand where it comes from. i'm quiet outspoken on my opinions but a story like this i've been holding my tongue amongst my friends because it feels shameful and can only be negative about it, not of the event but how it was handled from the ship's crew to government's response to help.
i only hope they learn from this and set up better regulations, though i dont think thats the issue, its the execution and mindset. by korean maritime law its a crime for a captain to abandon ship without caring for passengers, clearly this captain had no fucking idea. though there are regulations and laws, they're not executed well. korea can build ships but it seems they dont know how to use it properly.
crew told passengers to stay where they are while they evacuated, this is fucking mind boggling, including the people that listened to the crew despite not making sense. early calls of help came from passengers on their cell, not the ship. something is seriously fucked up.
on a side note, the media is chewing up the parent company's CEO, supposedly the ceo helped create a church, has 20,000 members and media is not accusing, but talk of possibility of money laundering and also the captain of the ship is linked to this church. media is also linking a relationship between the ceo and one of past worst korean president, "opinionizing" how the ceo got his wealth, probably due to the connection with this said ex-president. showing off the company's resort in the country side saying how big and grand it is. media is on witch hunt frenzy, puts TLers vs naniwa to shame. who knows, maybe there really is something shady going on, like if the captain became captain thanks to some people. (CEO now under investigation for many, many things)
Regarding the ship: I have read that it is a Japanese built ship but the company modified it to.make it a lot heavier. I think thats the shadiest part of it all. Why change a perfectly fine built ship in the first place?
the company literally gave zero f**k about passenger safety. like literally.
On April 26 2014 07:59 DwD wrote: Just read from CNN news that a diver found 48 dead girls in the same cabin all wearing life vests.. Holy shit how fucking terrible it must've been for them.
On April 26 2014 07:59 DwD wrote: Just read from CNN news that a diver found 48 dead girls in the same cabin all wearing life vests.. Holy shit how fucking terrible it must've been for them.
On April 26 2014 07:59 DwD wrote: Just read from CNN news that a diver found 48 dead girls in the same cabin all wearing life vests.. Holy shit how fucking terrible it must've been for them.
fuck, this is so fucking heartbreaking. i have a friend of a cousin (i'm a korean) who died on that fucking ferry, and it just shudders me to think how terrible it must have been. luckily my cousin wasn't on board, but still... those people were somebody's child, father, mother, wife or husband... ffs.
On April 25 2014 13:06 NNLBboy wrote: Apolgoize but what happen to cause the boat to sink? It is a sad thought of what the Captain did and it is interesting to read the Maritime laws that there is no law that the Captain has to stay intill the boat sinks. I also believe that Captain, yes should be punished but I do pity him seeing how that people are going to seriously pester him and basically make him feel like shit for this rest of his entire life.
To answer your question: There IS a law in Korea but let's say there isn't.
The Captain is the man of the ship, an adult. He is the #1 man responsible for what goes on the ship, and as such he should have been responsible and made sure everyone could make it out, as many as possible. The very fact that he did not even BOTHER to do so and just cared about saving his own damn ass, and in addition to the fact that the many who died were only students who haven't even experienced the world yet does not even begin to justify his survival.
Edit: He even ordered some bullshit to the students, teachers, crews and other people on board about not getting off the ship because it's "safer on board"... and then he's the first to leave the ship and survive. How is that justified, you tell me. He deserves to be publicly shamed and then hanged.
On April 26 2014 19:30 marigoldran wrote: No, they ran to the cabin when they realized it was too late to get out. Trying to stay away from the water.
Bad. Very, very bad.
I figured there'd be a few of these rooms deep in the ship. They'd have clustered as they ran from the water then drowned when they couldn't get deeper. I really pity the divers, I'm not sure if it's even worth recovering the bodies when it takes such a psychological toll.
On April 26 2014 19:30 marigoldran wrote: No, they ran to the cabin when they realized it was too late to get out. Trying to stay away from the water.
Bad. Very, very bad.
I figured there'd be a few of these rooms deep in the ship. They'd have clustered as they ran from the water then drowned when they couldn't get deeper. I really pity the divers, I'm not sure if it's even worth recovering the bodies when it takes such a psychological toll.
i dont think it's something to be a pity about. if i was a diver, i would have gone way out of the way to recover the bodies because that's the least i could do to bring some form of comfort to the parents.
The water is so murky you can barely see, and water is one of the fastest in Korea. And that's just the physical toll. Imagine fighting the current, fighting the poor visibility and finally entering a room, and you see 40 dead high school girls with lifevests floating in water... that's just straight out of some horror film.
Nevertheless, it is absolutely necessary to recover the bodies.
On April 25 2014 13:06 NNLBboy wrote: Apolgoize but what happen to cause the boat to sink? It is a sad thought of what the Captain did and it is interesting to read the Maritime laws that there is no law that the Captain has to stay intill the boat sinks. I also believe that Captain, yes should be punished but I do pity him seeing how that people are going to seriously pester him and basically make him feel like shit for this rest of his entire life.
To answer your question: There IS a law in Korea but let's say there isn't.
The Captain is the man of the ship, an adult. He is the #1 man responsible for what goes on the ship, and as such he should have been responsible and made sure everyone could make it out, as many as possible. The very fact that he did not even BOTHER to do so and just cared about saving his own damn ass, and in addition to the fact that the many who died were only students who haven't even experienced the world yet does not even begin to justify his survival.
Edit: He even ordered some bullshit to the students, teachers, crews and other people on board about not getting off the ship because it's "safer on board"... and then he's the first to leave the ship and survive. How is that justified, you tell me. He deserves to be publicly shamed and then hanged.
Ha, thank you for answering my question and yes I do understand that this man should be punished to the maximum extent of the law, seeing how like you said he do some bogus evacuation orders. Pretty much a sad thing to think about for those kids.
On April 26 2014 19:30 marigoldran wrote: No, they ran to the cabin when they realized it was too late to get out. Trying to stay away from the water.
Bad. Very, very bad.
I figured there'd be a few of these rooms deep in the ship. They'd have clustered as they ran from the water then drowned when they couldn't get deeper. I really pity the divers, I'm not sure if it's even worth recovering the bodies when it takes such a psychological toll.
i dont think it's something to be a pity about. if i was a diver, i would have gone way out of the way to recover the bodies because that's the least i could do to bring some form of comfort to the parents.
The least you could do? Really? Risking your life diving in pitch-black corridors with dangerous currents and decomposing children floating out of the darkness. It's a huge sacrifice. Severe trauma doesn't even cover it. Yes, recovering bodies for the parents is important, but you shouldn't underestimate the mental toll on the divers.
Sounds like the PM resignation is over slow response, government fuck-ups on information, lack of oversight/prevention and deregulation. Basically people are really angry and the administration gave them a head.
OH and the government sent some wrong bodies to the wrong families. The mix-up was only discovered by families at the funeral homes...
On April 26 2014 19:30 marigoldran wrote: No, they ran to the cabin when they realized it was too late to get out. Trying to stay away from the water.
Bad. Very, very bad.
I figured there'd be a few of these rooms deep in the ship. They'd have clustered as they ran from the water then drowned when they couldn't get deeper. I really pity the divers, I'm not sure if it's even worth recovering the bodies when it takes such a psychological toll.
i dont think it's something to be a pity about. if i was a diver, i would have gone way out of the way to recover the bodies because that's the least i could do to bring some form of comfort to the parents.
The least you could do? Really? Risking your life diving in pitch-black corridors with dangerous currents and decomposing children floating out of the darkness. It's a huge sacrifice. Severe trauma doesn't even cover it. Yes, recovering bodies for the parents is important, but you shouldn't underestimate the mental toll on the divers.
Sounds like the PM resignation is over slow response, government fuck-ups on information, lack of oversight/prevention and deregulation. Basically people are really angry and the administration gave them a head.
OH and the government sent some wrong bodies to the wrong families. The mix-up was only discovered by families at the funeral homes...
On April 26 2014 19:30 marigoldran wrote: No, they ran to the cabin when they realized it was too late to get out. Trying to stay away from the water.
Bad. Very, very bad.
I figured there'd be a few of these rooms deep in the ship. They'd have clustered as they ran from the water then drowned when they couldn't get deeper. I really pity the divers, I'm not sure if it's even worth recovering the bodies when it takes such a psychological toll.
i dont think it's something to be a pity about. if i was a diver, i would have gone way out of the way to recover the bodies because that's the least i could do to bring some form of comfort to the parents.
The least you could do? Really? Risking your life diving in pitch-black corridors with dangerous currents and decomposing children floating out of the darkness. It's a huge sacrifice. Severe trauma doesn't even cover it. Yes, recovering bodies for the parents is important, but you shouldn't underestimate the mental toll on the divers.
Sounds like the PM resignation is over slow response, government fuck-ups on information, lack of oversight/prevention and deregulation. Basically people are really angry and the administration gave them a head.
OH and the government sent some wrong bodies to the wrong families. The mix-up was only discovered by families at the funeral homes...
On April 26 2014 19:30 marigoldran wrote: No, they ran to the cabin when they realized it was too late to get out. Trying to stay away from the water.
Bad. Very, very bad.
I figured there'd be a few of these rooms deep in the ship. They'd have clustered as they ran from the water then drowned when they couldn't get deeper. I really pity the divers, I'm not sure if it's even worth recovering the bodies when it takes such a psychological toll.
i dont think it's something to be a pity about. if i was a diver, i would have gone way out of the way to recover the bodies because that's the least i could do to bring some form of comfort to the parents.
The least you could do? Really? Risking your life diving in pitch-black corridors with dangerous currents and decomposing children floating out of the darkness. It's a huge sacrifice. Severe trauma doesn't even cover it. Yes, recovering bodies for the parents is important, but you shouldn't underestimate the mental toll on the divers.
Sounds like the PM resignation is over slow response, government fuck-ups on information, lack of oversight/prevention and deregulation. Basically people are really angry and the administration gave them a head.
OH and the government sent some wrong bodies to the wrong families. The mix-up was only discovered by families at the funeral homes...
Indeed. Anyone saying otherwise, I'd like to see them try to do it as for sending families the wrong bodies. That's pretty bad.
It's probably harder to identify them as you get them out than it normally would be given how many people died. You've got a fuckload of drowned corpses and their teachers/peers etc died too. Unless you call all the families in and have them sort through the corpses for their own it's not unreasonable that a mixup happens. Having close relatives identify them as they come out isn't practical, especially with the bodies coming in a few at a time with some potentially never getting found.
On April 26 2014 19:30 marigoldran wrote: No, they ran to the cabin when they realized it was too late to get out. Trying to stay away from the water.
Bad. Very, very bad.
I figured there'd be a few of these rooms deep in the ship. They'd have clustered as they ran from the water then drowned when they couldn't get deeper. I really pity the divers, I'm not sure if it's even worth recovering the bodies when it takes such a psychological toll.
i dont think it's something to be a pity about. if i was a diver, i would have gone way out of the way to recover the bodies because that's the least i could do to bring some form of comfort to the parents.
The least you could do? Really? Risking your life diving in pitch-black corridors with dangerous currents and decomposing children floating out of the darkness. It's a huge sacrifice. Severe trauma doesn't even cover it. Yes, recovering bodies for the parents is important, but you shouldn't underestimate the mental toll on the divers.
Sounds like the PM resignation is over slow response, government fuck-ups on information, lack of oversight/prevention and deregulation. Basically people are really angry and the administration gave them a head.
OH and the government sent some wrong bodies to the wrong families. The mix-up was only discovered by families at the funeral homes...
Indeed. Anyone saying otherwise, I'd like to see them try to do it as for sending families the wrong bodies. That's pretty bad.
It's probably harder to identify them as you get them out than it normally would be given how many people died. You've got a fuckload of drowned corpses and their teachers/peers etc died too. Unless you call all the families in and have them sort through the corpses for their own it's not unreasonable that a mixup happens. Having close relatives identify them as they come out isn't practical, especially with the bodies coming in a few at a time with some potentially never getting found.
This is actually how they have been doing. They basically post on the board "We have a body...male, 180cm, wearing adidas t shirt, blah blah blah, if you think it's your son, come and identify"
Since they're high schoolers, they don't have fingerprint data or anything that the gov can possibly use to identify them.
So it seems my questions in the thread about why the rescue was not organized sooner were not unfounded. It is good to see that at least in some countries in this world there are honest politicians.
The rescue mission was just horribly orchestrated. There was no sense of order, no leader, no equipment, and most of all, no sense of urgency. But, if there is one person to blame, its the ship's crew. They released a new video recovered from one of the students whose body was recovered... The students were just laughing about the whole situation, and stayed within their dorm even while the ship was tilting. Meanwhile, they heard multiple announcement from the captain "Please do not move, stay where you are."
My theory is that the captain wanted everyone to stay still since he knew that only few helicopters were on the way and he wanted the fast way out. He overreacted and wanted to be the first one to live, when jumping off the ship could easily have been another solution. The water was calm, and temperature was not too cold. It was only 10 degrees, and as someone mentioned in a previous post, you can survive for multiple hours.....
Also, the fishermen at the site quoted, "we didn't see anyone jumping off the ship when we got there, there was literally no one" This makes me even more angry. There were more than enough rescue teams available at the time... Only if the kids just jumped in the water... This is truly the worst tragedy in Korea
This makes me even more angry. There were more than enough rescue teams available at the time... Only if the kids just jumped in the water... This is truly the worst tragedy in Korea
Indeed. This was, from start to finish, 100% man made disaster which is why it hurts so much. There could have been 0 deaths, but 300 people (250ish of them high schoolers) literally stood still inside a sinking ship and drowned JUST BECAUSE SOME IDIOT CAPTAIN TOLD THEM TO.
On April 28 2014 19:28 tylervoss4 wrote: The water was calm, and temperature was not too cold. It was only 10 degrees, and as someone mentioned in a previous post, you can survive for multiple hours.....
On April 28 2014 19:28 tylervoss4 wrote: They released a new video recovered from one of the students whose body was recovered... The students were just laughing about the whole situation, and stayed within their dorm even while the ship was tilting. Meanwhile, they heard multiple announcement from the captain "Please do not move, stay where you are."
I'm confused. Is the PM of Korea responsible for the control of the rescue operation? It sounds like he is being made a scrapegoat for the convenience of the real corruption that caused the slow responses of the rescue.
On April 28 2014 22:34 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I'm confused. Is the PM of Korea responsible for the control of the rescue operation? It sounds like he is being made a scrapegoat for the convenience of the real corruption that caused the slow responses of the rescue.
im not sure but it may have to do with initial reports, where someone (government?) claimed all the students were rescued and safe. then next they they say 200+ are missing.
escape goat or not i think the top head is just taking responsibility for all the fuck ups.
The video also captured orders carried over the ship's loudspeaker: "Once again, please do not move from your current location," a voice says. "Absolutely do not move."
Pretty damning, can't believe they kept repeating that.
The prime minister is equivalent to the vice president in America. Still a pretty big resignation, but not nearly the same as, say, the British Prime Minister resigning.
So it seems my questions in the thread about why the rescue was not organized sooner were not unfounded. It is good to see that at least in some countries in this world there are honest politicians.
I don't understand where the leap that the resignation has anything to do with honesty is coming from.
i think most asians (japanese and koreans specifically) are too 'attached' (i dont know a better word for this) to the public's perception of them. It's almost similar to the vice principal committing suicide blaming himself since he thought that it was his idea for a trip. the resignation probably is because he blamed himself (or the public blaming him) for the slow response of his subordinates.
"An announcement on the train telling passengers to remain where they were was widely ignored. Many passengers forced open the train doors and jumped down onto the track to get away, witnesses said."
Subway crash today. Noone killed. Not sure if ignoring the announcer's instructions is going to be a safe trend, could easily lead to another tragedy.
On May 03 2014 04:24 cz wrote: What are the reactions in Korea to this? What do netizens think?
Most Koreans are very pissed off about this. It appears that the entire crew was not at their posts and were either slacking off or actually making things worse for the passengers' chances of survival.
Not only was the order to "stay in your seats" repeatedly given for hours, but they were reassured that everything was fine until it was too late to have done anything. Hundreds of children are now dead because a ridiculous coward of a captain tried to cover for his own incompetency and that of the navigator and other crew. The captain and the crew were also first to scramble off the boat while telling all others to stay where they were. The crew had abandoned ship with the captain on the lifeboat for a time before people realized they were on a doomed ship with no crew.
Neither captain nor navigator were present at their posts when the emergency occurred and they did not realize anything was wrong for a good half an hour. The negligence and deliberate misinformation to cover up their laziness only makes the parents more upset about the conditions of this incident.
On Tuesday, one civilian diver died at a hospital after becoming unconscious, government task force spokesman Ko Myung-seok said in a statement. According to other task force team officials, the 53-year-old diver was pulled to the surface by fellow divers after losing communication, he said.
I think most people don't realise how hard diving for a wreck is, even if it's "just" 25m. And with the public perception being that it's relatively easy, as well as all the drama around it already, nobody wanted to be the one to say "we don't want to dive for the bodies, it's not worth it."
Hopefully now people realise quite how dangerous/difficult it is for them, and some of the pressure to get it done as fast as possible, "no matter the cost," eases off.
On May 21 2014 04:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So the Ferry Captain failed to show up to court, so this is basically a manhunt now?
It's not the captain; the dudes already being held in jail. It's the president of the ferry company or something...some guy in high place, but yeah, it's officially a manhunt now.
On May 21 2014 17:52 iremnant3847 wrote: Have all the bodies of the victims been found? I can't seem to find any recent numbers.
Seems a reasonable enough time for a bump with these developments. What do you more knowledgeable on Korean affairs/those who live in Korea think is likely to happen in this case, is a death penalty at all likely to happen?
I would imagine it was going to be put on the table given the intense public anger surrounding the affair, but that it wouldn't be likely to be the final verdict?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bc5vCbm.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d6attoo.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R1S7VRK.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vlnwwJn.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dxXmqZ4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PtNnJUB.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g9elSoC.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/esEyOHA.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C5Fg5at.png)
