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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:28 Jormundr wrote: Not really. This is about as stupid as the motorcycle safety (and abortion) bill that we passed in North Carolina a few months back. Don't see how that's relevant at all. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:36 ZeaL. wrote: I'll take political grandstanding that affects a insignificant number of people over a partial government shutdown, which will shave a few tenths off our our gdp growth, over a bill that cleared both houses, the presidency, and the supreme court. Quibbling. That is you. The partial shutdown could have been avoided by postponing ACA for a year. And blockading private businesses hasn't avoided the shutdown. It has only made it worse. So you are just saying you want the shutdown to be as bad as possible... okay. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On October 09 2013 00:41 Zaqwe wrote: Republicans are very willing to open the government. They are also willing to piecemeal open anything the Democrats will agree to. The only thing the Republicans won't agree to fund is the ACA. Democrats won't agree to fund anything but. Nice spin. Democrats won't agree to being blackmailed by Republicans, and by allowing partial shutdown Republicans gain everything they wanted and Democrats nothing. Beautiful compromise. Noting also that Republicans are not majority, why should they get their way, especially by blackmailing the whole nation into submission. All your posts are pure PR bs. | ||
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lantz
United States762 Posts
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rasnj
United States1959 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:39 Zaqwe wrote: The partial shutdown could have been avoided by postponing ACA for a year. And blockading private businesses hasn't avoided the shutdown. It has only made it worse. So you are just saying you want the shutdown to be as bad as possible... okay. What do you think would happen in a year? The Republicans would suddenly be more cooperative concerning ACA? It is a ridiculous suggestion that would gain us nothing, except it allows the Republicans to say they offered an alternative. In a year they would pull of the same stunt, or something worse (for ACA) if they could get away with it. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:36 ZeaL. wrote: I'll take political grandstanding that affects a insignificant number of people over a partial government shutdown, which will shave off a few percentage points of our gdp, over a bill that cleared both houses, the presidency, and the supreme court. Quibbling. That is you. Congress, specifically the House, has complete control for origination of Budgetary Authority. (Though the Senate can somewhat create spending bills through a few routes) It doesn't matter what was passed previously, Congress can simply choose not to fund it now. It actually does this pretty much every year and they have 200+ years of precedence on it. What's going on now is brinksmanship. This is why they've forcibly shut things that operate by themselves & independent of Federal authority, currently, but have some relationship with the Feds. It's all about optics to avoid the two main issues: 1) The House can do this for as long as they feel like it. 2) If the Feds stay closed long enough, we'll start to wonder what they're taking on debt for +1 Trillion USD a year for. And, no, that's not adding to the GDP. It's just a stealth future tax. Oh, and don't expect the ACA to survive too long in the courts. The 2012 case ended up hinging on rewriting all of the argumentation for it as a Tax. Taxes can't be challenged until they take effect (per standing rules) and there's still the gross First Amendment violations likely to take out chunks of it next year. It's going to get the Swiss Cheese effect, for certain, though parts will stay intact. Though if anyone is still actually buying or selling in the markets in 3 years is a completely separate issue. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:40 mcc wrote: Nice spin. Democrats won't agree to being blackmailed by Republicans, and by allowing partial shutdown Republicans gain everything they wanted and Democrats nothing. Beautiful compromise. Noting also that Republicans are not majority, why should they get their way, especially by blackmailing the whole nation into submission. All your posts are pure PR bs. Republicans have control of the house. The house has constitutionally granted powers over the budget. The Democrats simply don't have the votes to pass an appropriations bill that funds the ACA. Too bad for them. That's not blackmail, it's democracy. Blockading private businesses for no reason other than to cause maximum harm to American citizens is where the blackmail (or hostage taking as I have called it) is taking place. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:39 Zaqwe wrote: The partial shutdown could have been avoided by postponing ACA for a year. And women can avoid being raped by wearing steel plate armor at all times. The kids on Utøya could have avoided being killed by not being affiliated with the AUF. Homosexuals can avoid being beaten by not being gay. However we generally tend to blame the rapist for the rape, the serial killer for the killings, the assailant for the assault, and the hostage taker for the condition of the hostage. Funny logic that. Pretty hard to follow, but hopefully you'll be able to catch on. | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:39 Zaqwe wrote: The partial shutdown could have been avoided by postponing ACA for a year. And blockading private businesses hasn't avoided the shutdown. It has only made it worse. So you are just saying you want the shutdown to be as bad as possible... okay. Delay for a year and then what? Budget showdown #2? If the Democrats postponed the ACA for a year they'd basically be giving in and showing that it doesn't matter what the other 2.5 branches of government say, if the House majority wants something they can paralyze the country. No. You keep acting like the shutdown is SOOOO much worse because a few people who shouldn't have been affected are affected. HOW ABOUT NOT SHUTTING DOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE? | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:46 Zaqwe wrote: Republicans have control of the house. The house has constitutionally granted powers over the budget. The Democrats simply don't have the votes to pass an appropriations bill that funds the ACA. Too bad for them. That's not blackmail, it's democracy. Blockading private businesses for no reason other than to cause maximum harm to American citizens is where the blackmail (or hostage taking as I have called it) is taking place. And Senate/President have constitutionally granted ability to do what they are doing. That is not blackmail, that is democracy. You are presenting your (minority) subjective opinion as fact while at the same time sticking fingers in your ears and screaming . | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:44 Taf the Ghost wrote: Congress, specifically the House, has complete control for origination of Budgetary Authority. (Though the Senate can somewhat create spending bills through a few routes) It doesn't matter what was passed previously, Congress can simply choose not to fund it now. It actually does this pretty much every year and they have 200+ years of precedence on it. I'm sure you can find plenty of examples where the there was a government shutdown over a bill that isn't funded through the direct appropriations in the budget. I'll wait. | ||
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georgehabadasher
Taiwan23 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:44 Taf the Ghost wrote: 1) The House can do this for as long as they feel like it. 2) If the Feds stay closed long enough, we'll start to wonder what they're taking on debt for +1 Trillion USD a year for. And, no, that's not adding to the GDP. It's just a stealth future tax. Or people will realize that we actually need agencies like the EPA and the FDA to protect consumers. Already we're seeing problems occur: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/10/shutdown-salmonella/ | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:53 ZeaL. wrote: I'm sure you can find plenty of examples where the there was a government shutdown over a bill that isn't funded through the direct appropriations in the budget. I'll wait. http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/25/here-is-every-previous-government-shutdown-why-they-happened-and-how-they-ended/ Lookup the carter shutdowns. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:57 MstrJinbo wrote: http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/25/here-is-every-previous-government-shutdown-why-they-happened-and-how-they-ended/ Lookup the carter shutdowns. Don't care, weren't real shutdowns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_shutdown_in_the_United_States Mechanism of a shutdown, second and third paragraphs. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25458 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:36 ZeaL. wrote: I'll take political grandstanding that affects a insignificant number of people over a partial government shutdown, which will shave a few tenths off our our gdp growth, over a bill that cleared both houses, the presidency, and the supreme court. Quibbling. That is you. Haha enjoyed this quote. Anyway, why are the Republicans doing this again, if I recall correctly this somewhat backfired when Gingrich tried it the last time? Is there anything that explains that succinctly? | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:46 Zaqwe wrote: Republicans have control of the house. The house has constitutionally granted powers over the budget. The Democrats simply don't have the votes to pass an appropriations bill that funds the ACA. Too bad for them. That's not blackmail, it's democracy. Blockading private businesses for no reason other than to cause maximum harm to American citizens is where the blackmail (or hostage taking as I have called it) is taking place. I think you don't know what a democracy is. Having constitutionnally granted powers over the budget doesn't mean they can accept or deny every law that has been passed from being funded. They can refuse, discuss or negociate the budget as a whole, like in every democracy, but refusing to sign the budget for a single law - that has already been passed - is nothing more than taking the entire country as hostage... Also according to your logic, it is also Obama's power to shut down any place he wants. So why is it that you consider that Obama is taking the country as hostages for shutting down some specific public services (that are not funded because of the Republicains) while Republicains are only doing what the constitution made them to do ? Isn't he doing something he was elected for ? | ||
KwarK
United States42775 Posts
On October 09 2013 00:33 Zaqwe wrote: The GOP have agreed to fund the parks. Obama has threatened a veto. Because there is literally no difference between Obama caving on Obamacare funding and Obama holding out against the government shutdown while allowing the Republicans to pass special bills funding everything that isn't Obamacare. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On October 09 2013 01:29 Zaqwe wrote: You lead your post with "incorrect", then end up absolutely 100% agreeing with me. This is all I have been saying all along. Unnecessary shutdowns are just political grandstanding (hostage taking) by the Obama administration. You are aware that you are making absolutely no sense here right? Obama did not create the shutdown procedures, those lists have been created and reviewed by quite a few other people, departments decide what they can do without in case of emergency etc... In case you were not aware those lists were actually public before the shutdown even happened. So the decision to do these "unnecessary shutdowns" (isn't the entire shutdown unnecessary? If it isn't who decides if it is?) was taken by the GOP if it was taken by anyone. While the specific examples you list might be profitable by themselves, the reason they are also shut down, is most likely (in the two cases I could be bothered to fact check) because their oversight department is shut down. This entire episode of political grandstanding (hostage taking) is a disgrace for your country, but let's keep the blame where it belongs the GOP decided to do this, after spending nearly 3 years in negotiation over the ACA before it was actually implemented. Remember where Obamacare actually started? Or as what program it was initially proposed? This compromise is already very very generous to your position. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On October 09 2013 02:03 WhiteDog wrote: shutting down some specific public services (that are not funded because of the Republicains) Here is a list of 38 shutdowns that are being done at expense to taxpayers, including places that do not require any federal funding. Some of them even pay money to the federal government, so blockading them and preventing them from doing business just makes budget issues worse. The List: Unnecessarily Shut Down by Obama to Inflict Public Pain http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/05/list-obama-closures-for-shutdown | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 09 2013 02:03 WhiteDog wrote: I think you don't know what a democracy is. Having constitutionnally granted powers over the budget doesn't mean they can accept or deny every law that has been passed from being funded. They can refuse, discuss or negociate the budget as a whole, like in every democracy, but refusing to sign the budget for a single law - that has already been passed - is nothing more than taking the entire country as hostage... Also according to your logic, it is also Obama's power to shut down any place he wants. So why is it that you consider that Obama is taking the country as hostages for shutting down some specific public services (that are not funded because of the Republicains) while Republicains are only doing what the constitution made them to do ? Isn't he doing something he was elected for ? In the US that is actually how it works. Unless specified in the law itself, Laws are passed which authorizes the funding, then an appropriations bill for lack of a better word gives out the authorized funds. Interestingly enough, Obamacare is one of those exceptions where the law itself both authorizes and appropriates funds, almost as if someone anticipated that republicans might try to kill it through appropriations. | ||
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