On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
On October 02 2013 03:48 Rassy wrote: The public is the sheep then i guess?
The Sheep is people who will have their hours cut to avoid providing insurance for them, it's people who will be stuck paying higher insurance premiums, and its small businesses who will have to provide insurance for their employees.
The Wolves are big pharma, the AMA, and big insurance companies.
On October 02 2013 02:47 Ketara wrote: People who's hours are being cut because of Obamacare, that is unfortunate, but it is going to happen regardless of whether or not the government is shut down, because the law is already funded and still in effect even during the shutdown.
All the Republican congressmen are doing is hurting the country for no reason. They are throwing a childish temper tantrum. They need to stop.
Okay, well since Obama gave delays to all his friends and to Big Business why can't he give me a delay?
Republicans are fighting to stop the bullshit law from taking effect. They are not shutting down the government for no reason.
BTW, the Republicans passed 3-4 bills that would fund the government.
May I ask why exactly you are so against Obamacare?
He already explained it.
His hours will be cut to keep him below the limit at which Obamacare requires his employer to pay for his insurance.
On October 02 2013 02:54 Adila wrote:
On October 02 2013 02:51 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 02:47 Ketara wrote: People who's hours are being cut because of Obamacare, that is unfortunate, but it is going to happen regardless of whether or not the government is shut down, because the law is already funded and still in effect even during the shutdown.
All the Republican congressmen are doing is hurting the country for no reason. They are throwing a childish temper tantrum. They need to stop.
or maybe they can get the law changed?
Just because something is law doesn't mean its permanent.
I could've sworn we just had an election a year ago where this was a major issue and the Democrats still received the majority of the popular vote...
There are quite a few Dems in the Senate that are willing to make modifications to the law. However, they are not willing to do it via the CR or debt ceiling fight.
And I could've sworn we weren't a democracy for a reason. The American public simply doesn't have access to the data necessary, nor the time to do the math necessary to figure out if Obamacare would actually be good for them.
Public opinion should not decide individual issues. "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch" - Ben Franklin
On October 02 2013 03:45 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:39 ZeromuS wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:31 GTPGlitch wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:27 ZeromuS wrote: OK is there somewhere I can read in simple terms why obamacare has resulted in the shut down?
This seems weird to me. In Canada if a budget bill is turned down the government keeps working and everyone goes back to the polls to elect another government. The idea being if the majority of the elected people representing the regular people are voting down a budget, then it means the people dont agree with how the gov wants to spend money so its time to vote and see who has the power.
The majority in the house, the GOP, attached demands to the passing of the budget that included delaying obamacare/ACA for a year. Democrat majority in the Senate refused to negotiate with them because they don't want to bow to economic terrorism. House refused to send a budget without the OC/ACA attachments, Senate refuses to pass one with those attachments, government shutdown.
That sounds so petty and ridiculous its disgusting. If its causing THAT big a rift in the government it should be put to a popular vote of the people. A referendum - everybody gets a chance to vote for obama care or against obama care
Absolutely not. The American public doesn't have access to the data, nor the time or skills required, to figure out it'd be good for them. And even if it's good for a majority, that still doesn't mean its a good idea, because it may only be good short-term, while being terrible long-term.
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch." - Ben Franklin
Libertarian spambot, or just a Randroid?
Rand Paul is not a Libertarian, despite what he might claim. He's a Neocon through and through.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate. Our government has numerous checks in place to ensure policy that is passed is well vetted. Once all those checks have been cleared, passed policy should remain passed until/unless the Legislature can pass subsequent laws to override it or the Supreme Court changes their mind. Otherwise, policy in the country will merely be determined by whichever side whines/blackmails the other side better, which isn't good governance.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
What? If the mandate goes away the entire thing falls apart. There's no other way based on obtaining private insurance that's workable.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate.
Just because a law has been deemed constitutional doesn't mean they have to stop fighting over it. Just that they can't argue against it by claiming its unconstitutional. Unless there's some way to get the case heard again that I'm not aware of.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
What? If the mandate goes away the entire thing falls apart. There's no other way based on obtaining private insurance that's workable.
They are asking them to postpone the mandate for individuals for one year; the same consideration they made for companies. They are also asking for congressman to be subject to the same rules and regulations as the American people.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
Well yea obviously a partial shutdown hurts; if my analogy was misunderstood, the only parts of the government that are not functioning right now is the money side. The longer anything bad goes on, the worse it will get.
I don't foresee this lasting for longer than a week, just because of how much shit the GOP will get for not accepting a passed bill.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 04:04 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 04:02 Incognoto wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate.
Just because a law has been deemed constitutional doesn't mean they have to stop fighting over it. Just that they can't argue against it by claiming its unconstitutional. Unless there's some way to get the case heard again that I'm not aware of.
It shows a fundamental lack of respect for the democratic process. These people are there to enact the will of the voters, not play one-ups-manship to appease fringe yokels. Republican members of congress have shown time and time again that they care far more about their next primary than about their country.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 04:04 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 04:02 Incognoto wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate.
Just because a law has been deemed constitutional doesn't mean they have to stop fighting over it. Just that they can't argue against it by claiming its unconstitutional. Unless there's some way to get the case heard again that I'm not aware of.
It shows a fundamental lack of respect for the democratic process. These people are there to enact the will of the voters, not play one-ups-manship to appease fringe yokels. Republican members of congress have shown time and time again that they care far more about their next primary than about their country.
The United States is NOT a democracy. As the video just a little ways up the page shows, the American public has absolutely no idea what they want. Congressmen aren't there to do the people's bidding, they're there to run the country. If they were supposed to just do what the people want, why not just get rid of Congress and have everything put up to a referendum? Cut out the middle man?
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 04:04 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 04:02 Incognoto wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate.
Just because a law has been deemed constitutional doesn't mean they have to stop fighting over it. Just that they can't argue against it by claiming its unconstitutional. Unless there's some way to get the case heard again that I'm not aware of.
Oh, I completely agree. If they believe the policy is bad they should absolutely continue to fight against it. What they shouldn't do, however, is completely circumvent the political system by holding the country hostage.
The Supreme Court does re-hear issues, but generally not for many years after its original finding. It's also possible for a case not directly related to the individual mandate to make its way up to the Supreme Court and in the process of deciding on the case, the Court can override its prior decision. These things aren't common, but they do happen.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 04:04 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 04:02 Incognoto wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate.
Just because a law has been deemed constitutional doesn't mean they have to stop fighting over it. Just that they can't argue against it by claiming its unconstitutional. Unless there's some way to get the case heard again that I'm not aware of.
It shows a fundamental lack of respect for the democratic process. These people are there to enact the will of the voters, not play one-ups-manship to appease fringe yokels. Republican members of congress have shown time and time again that they care far more about their next primary than about their country.
The United States is NOT a democracy. As the video just a little ways up the page shows, the American public has absolutely no idea what they want. Congressmen aren't there to do the people's bidding, they're there to run the country. If they were supposed to just do what the people want, why not just get rid of Congress and have everything put up to a referendum? Cut out the middle man?
The US is not a true democracy and it's never been one and it was designed NOT to be one. The general public is, unfortunately, severely uninformed to make policy decisions. The idea of a democratic republic is that the public elects people best suited to act in their interest.
If we had true democracy, black people minorities would be slaves at worst, second class citizens at best. Homosexual couples would never be allowed to marry anywhere and would likely be in jail (sodomy was classified as a crime in many states). Our economy would be in the shit because policy would change at the whims of each generation. To put it simply, they're not supposed to do what the people want, they're supposed to do what is best for the people. There's a difference.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
That was sarcasm right Mill?
I've found it interesting that the ACA requires employers to provide a basic service to help keep their employees healthy and productive, and when they treat their employees like child's toys to be replaced and discarded without care people want to place the blame on the legislation that encouraged businesses to do the right thing.
How/why do people look at corporations with record profits as a result of more people working harder for much less than they did in the past and think 'well the only way these businesses can survive is by making sure as little of those record profits go to the people on the front line as possible.'
What astounds me is how people have been convinced so thoroughly to vote and act against their own interests to clearly benefit a few greedy elites.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 04:04 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 04:02 Incognoto wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate.
Just because a law has been deemed constitutional doesn't mean they have to stop fighting over it. Just that they can't argue against it by claiming its unconstitutional. Unless there's some way to get the case heard again that I'm not aware of.
It shows a fundamental lack of respect for the democratic process. These people are there to enact the will of the voters, not play one-ups-manship to appease fringe yokels. Republican members of congress have shown time and time again that they care far more about their next primary than about their country.
The United States is NOT a democracy. As the video just a little ways up the page shows, the American public has absolutely no idea what they want. Congressmen aren't there to do the people's bidding, they're there to run the country. If they were supposed to just do what the people want, why not just get rid of Congress and have everything put up to a referendum? Cut out the middle man?
It's not technically a democracy, but the democratic process still very much applies. Idiots exist everywhere, maybe the US has more than its fair share, but that is the price of 1 person = 1 vote. The congressmen are there to run the country at the people's behest, and at their suffering. People being stupid or ill informed is not an argument to suspend democratic order.
One could easily argue that people are too dumb and ignorant to understand how awesome socialized healthcare is, and Obama is just trying to save americans from themselves. Works both ways.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 04:04 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 04:02 Incognoto wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate.
Just because a law has been deemed constitutional doesn't mean they have to stop fighting over it. Just that they can't argue against it by claiming its unconstitutional. Unless there's some way to get the case heard again that I'm not aware of.
The time for arguing about Obamacare has come and gone. The Tea Party is now arguing that the entire government should not have funding at all, simply because they don't like this one law that has been put into place. The constitution stipulates that Congress shall pass a budget, this is one of congress' primary jobs. The Tea Party is now refusing to do their jobs because they instead choose to be whiny crybabies about this one law that was already signed by the president. If they want to repeal Obamacare, they need to get their majority back in the Senate and pass legislation to do so. The way they're handling this is simply irresponsible and is going to cause unnecessary collateral damage to the country.
On October 02 2013 03:01 Grollicus wrote: The more I read about this the more I feel some people in the congress are very sore losers
Actually, every single member of Congress won their last election, so they can't really be losers, can they ? They are all doing what they were elected to do. Many Liberals just seem to think that because they won the Presidential election, that the House and Senate should just be lapdogs to the President's wishes. Doesn't work that way. This President has made no effort whatsoever to work with Congress, and here we are. There are ALWAYS two sides to an agreement, or lack thereof.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
What? If the mandate goes away the entire thing falls apart. There's no other way based on obtaining private insurance that's workable.
They are asking them to postpone the mandate for individuals for one year; the same consideration they made for companies. They are also asking for congressman to be subject to the same rules and regulations as the American people.
Not even close to being the same thing. The employer mandate was meant to restrict businesses from dumping a large number of people onto the public system as a, "You're on your own now, bub!" A smoothing part of the bill. Individual mandate is an essential part, without which forces insurance companies to take huge risks with the language regarding preexisting conditions, as well as creating moral hazard regarding coverage and preexisting conditions.
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
I guess so.
I'm not a House Republican member, so I won't claim to know why they're doing this, but I suspect that this is not much more than a political maneuver to appease their fringe elements. Even if the economic backlash is worth the repeal of Obamacare, the precedent set if this succeeds will most definitely cause serious problems in the future. If political parties can overturn policy they don’t like by completely bypassing the political process via holding the country hostage, our Legislature will cease to function.
On October 02 2013 04:04 Millitron wrote:
On October 02 2013 04:02 Incognoto wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
On October 02 2013 03:56 imBLIND wrote: This isn't a complete shutdown. If a government completely shuts down, people would be looting every store right now with no fear of law enforcement. The partial shutdown is more like someone not paying their rent and utilities because of some internal problem, except on a government scale. This isn't the citizen's problem and it doesn't affect most of us directly (ofc unless you work for the government directly; teachers, law enforcement, etc still have to work).
This shutdown is basically the GOP's last resort to stop obamacare from going into effect.
Well, this shutdown can and most likely will affect the stock market, which will in turn affect the economy and the general public. Governmental shutdown will cause lowered confidence in the United States and its ability to pay off its debts, pay its employees (who are numerous), and essentially run the "business" (the US government spends a lot of money doing stuff like guilding contracts and shit and this money definitely drives the economy in a non-neglible way).
If this shutdown goes on for a reasonably long time, it can have drastic impacts for the general public.
So I take it republicans feel that this shut down and the economic backlash it's going to cause will be justified if Obama takes back health care. meaning that republicans feel that this shut down is worth it in the long run
They're not demanding he even takes back all of it. Just a few contentious points like the Individual Mandate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the individual mandate has been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, which honestly should've been the final nail in that debate.
Just because a law has been deemed constitutional doesn't mean they have to stop fighting over it. Just that they can't argue against it by claiming its unconstitutional. Unless there's some way to get the case heard again that I'm not aware of.
The time for arguing about Obamacare has come and gone. The Tea Party is now arguing that the entire government should not have funding at all, simply because they don't like this one law that has been put into place. The constitution stipulates that Congress shall pass a budget, this is one of congress' primary jobs. The Tea Party is now refusing to do their jobs because they instead choose to be whiny crybabies about this one law that was already signed by the president. If they want to repeal Obamacare, they need to get their majority back in the Senate and pass legislation to do so. The way they're handling this is simply irresponsible and is going to cause unnecessary collateral damage to the country.
The House has been passing budgets left and right. The Senate has either not brought them up for vote, or didn't pass them.
EPT
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