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On August 03 2013 06:06 laegoose wrote:
Haha, we have a bunch of hateful/censor laws passed this year, not to mention multi-billion corruption with little to none official investigation. "Gay propaganda law" is the least problem here lol.
a violation of human rights should always be taken very seriously, regardless of other circumstances
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Russian Federation325 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:25 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:06 laegoose wrote:
Haha, we have a bunch of hateful/censor laws passed this year, not to mention multi-billion corruption with little to none official investigation. "Gay propaganda law" is the least problem here lol. what are the other problems? ill bash on all your bad laws. this one is just the one im aware of right now.
Major internet providers are obliged to block access to sites that have suicide propaganda (youtube blocked because of '20 stupid ways to die' video), drugs propaganda/usage instructions (some EVE forum, because they have stimulators). From August 1st music rightholders can send requests to block sites that have illegal content, no courts involved. Pokerstars blocked just because they can (even though online-poker is legal... yet). The only good thing is that law is enforced badly and actually these blocks happen only in some cities and sometimes get reversed.
No public religion-bashing, up to few years jail time penalty.
No orphan adoption by US citizens and gay parents, given orphans have insanely bad conditions here and mostly become criminals.
Ah, fuck it, they say Russia has strong economy/GDP, but all money are owned by oligarchs and Mr. President friends in government, and you may have heard what happened with Mr. Navalny who investigated some multi-billion frauds.
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Russian Federation325 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:30 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:06 laegoose wrote:
Haha, we have a bunch of hateful/censor laws passed this year, not to mention multi-billion corruption with little to none official investigation. "Gay propaganda law" is the least problem here lol. a violation of human rights should always be taken very seriously, regardless of other circumstances
There are too many problems in Russia, to take all of them seriously and remain sane.
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On August 03 2013 04:35 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +The perception of right and wrong is part of Your cultural inhertiance,it is based in society You live, in Your experience with it. There are many societies in the world in which sex with 12 year old is right. Do You think its ok? I dont think so. Me neither. We have different cultural experience than them. It is obvious that we want our views to prevail, but we are not any more right than they are. Some things are just objectively wrong. Denying harmless people happiness is one of those things. Relativistic moralism is stupid. You can't shake off cannibalism by saying "Well, it's just their culture!".
And here you get caught on your own rope. There is nothing objectively wrong with eating people who were not killed for the puprpose of eating them, yet our culture gets apeshit insane everytime it is mentioned. The same applies to protected sex between sibling, for examples. There are some things that even the most tolerant common variaty of our culture considers intolerable, even though there is no transcendental reason for it. For these and similar reasons I firmly believe that unbiased deduction of universal minimal morality is impossible by human beings.
I am not supporting an anti-gay measures, ever, period. But I hate when a good cause is argued for using flawed arguments because it undermines the cause.
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On August 03 2013 04:57 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 04:11 FryBender wrote:On August 03 2013 03:43 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:35 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:30 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong. A lot of this has to do with the inherently problematic nature of pedophilic material; the vast majority of it is created alongside the exploitation of those unable to give consent. It's nice to pretend that pedophiles are sitting behind closed doors and pleasuring themselves to mere illustrations, but, given what we know in terms of the proliferation of child pornography, this is not the case. In short, the practice of pedophilia is closely enough tied to exploitation that tolerance of it is highly questionable, considerably more so than any concerns in regards to homosexuality. Yes, and I agree that pedophelia is more problematic than homosexuality from a pragmatic viewpoint, which you are taking here. However, the equivocation was based on a moral viewpoint, why is one group persecuted for their natural (I assume I am fair in assuming this is near consensus that sexual orientation is natural and not chosen) desires, while another is not, even when the people themselves (consuming the troublesome materials you mention) are doing nothing wrong, Asking pedophilic people to not view material that satifies them to reduce the people harms seems fairly akin to asking gays to stay in the closet for the betterment of society (which is partially the case in Russia, since they prefer closeted gays with children than happy married gays.) Gay people are not simply asked to stay in the closet. The negative propaganda against homosexuals is still perfectly legal (and for the most part encouraged) while the defense of homosexuals is illegal. Therefore the law is not meant to simply protect the general population's sensibilities as you imply (if that were true then all talk about homesecuality whether pro or anti would be forbidden), but to promote a state view that homosexuals are less human then heterosexuals. If you see nothing wrong with that then I guess there is nothing left to argue about. Thanks you for perfectly portraying exactly what I was talking about, the absolute disregard for logic and intellectual honesty shown by some people here. The entire point of the comparison is "Why are we trying to make pedophilic people less than human, given xyz similarities they have to homosexuals, when WE KNOW HOMOSEXUALS SHOULDN"T BE TREATED AS LESS THAN HUMAN". You cannot take a tiny supporting piece of an argument, pretend it is the key to the whole thing, warp it into something indefensible, bash that, then proclaim the moral high ground. Tell me how gay people not simply being asked to stay in the closet in any way even reduces the validity of what I said, or better yet, how it's even relevant.
First of all no one is trying to argue that any kind of "sexual perversions" makes the person "less human" be it your run of the mill standard foot fetish or you being turned on by goats. What everyone has said is that most civilized societies have outlawed pedophilia not because pedophiles are somehow "worse" then homosexuals but simply for the fact that one party in that interaction is being treated unfair since children do not have the maturity to make informed decisions about their sexual preferences. Since in regular homosexual relationships both parties are on equal footing comparing pedophilia and homosexuality makes no sense and it will not cause any sort of slippery slope (bigamy laws are certainly different but that's a different argument) The laws against homosexuality are inherently unfair because they have nothing to do with protecting the parties involved. They are simply laws of a religious nature being forced onto a supposed secular society.
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On August 03 2013 06:52 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 04:35 Thorakh wrote:The perception of right and wrong is part of Your cultural inhertiance,it is based in society You live, in Your experience with it. There are many societies in the world in which sex with 12 year old is right. Do You think its ok? I dont think so. Me neither. We have different cultural experience than them. It is obvious that we want our views to prevail, but we are not any more right than they are. Some things are just objectively wrong. Denying harmless people happiness is one of those things. Relativistic moralism is stupid. You can't shake off cannibalism by saying "Well, it's just their culture!". And here you get caught on your own rope. There is nothing objectively wrong with eating people who were not killed for the puprpose of eating them, yet our culture gets apeshit insane everytime it is mentioned. The same applies to protected sex between sibling, for examples. There are some things that even the most tolerant common variaty of our culture considers intolerable, even though there is no transcendental reason for it. For these and similar reasons I firmly believe that unbiased deduction of universal minimal morality is impossible by human beings. I am not supporting an anti-gay measures, ever, period. But I hate when a good cause is argued for using flawed arguments because it undermines the cause.
Actually you're pulling the same thing you're criticizing.
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On August 03 2013 06:54 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:52 opisska wrote:On August 03 2013 04:35 Thorakh wrote:The perception of right and wrong is part of Your cultural inhertiance,it is based in society You live, in Your experience with it. There are many societies in the world in which sex with 12 year old is right. Do You think its ok? I dont think so. Me neither. We have different cultural experience than them. It is obvious that we want our views to prevail, but we are not any more right than they are. Some things are just objectively wrong. Denying harmless people happiness is one of those things. Relativistic moralism is stupid. You can't shake off cannibalism by saying "Well, it's just their culture!". And here you get caught on your own rope. There is nothing objectively wrong with eating people who were not killed for the puprpose of eating them, yet our culture gets apeshit insane everytime it is mentioned. The same applies to protected sex between sibling, for examples. There are some things that even the most tolerant common variaty of our culture considers intolerable, even though there is no transcendental reason for it. For these and similar reasons I firmly believe that unbiased deduction of universal minimal morality is impossible by human beings. I am not supporting an anti-gay measures, ever, period. But I hate when a good cause is argued for using flawed arguments because it undermines the cause. Actually you're pulling the same thing you're criticizing.
No, I am not. He argues that there is objective morality and according to that, the law in discussion is proven wrong. I try to argue that such objective morality is impossible to define and thus other means of supporting our common view have to be put forward.
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On August 02 2013 21:22 ZeRoX-45 wrote:
I support Russian decision.
of course you do
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On August 03 2013 06:58 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:54 Roe wrote:On August 03 2013 06:52 opisska wrote:On August 03 2013 04:35 Thorakh wrote:The perception of right and wrong is part of Your cultural inhertiance,it is based in society You live, in Your experience with it. There are many societies in the world in which sex with 12 year old is right. Do You think its ok? I dont think so. Me neither. We have different cultural experience than them. It is obvious that we want our views to prevail, but we are not any more right than they are. Some things are just objectively wrong. Denying harmless people happiness is one of those things. Relativistic moralism is stupid. You can't shake off cannibalism by saying "Well, it's just their culture!". And here you get caught on your own rope. There is nothing objectively wrong with eating people who were not killed for the puprpose of eating them, yet our culture gets apeshit insane everytime it is mentioned. The same applies to protected sex between sibling, for examples. There are some things that even the most tolerant common variaty of our culture considers intolerable, even though there is no transcendental reason for it. For these and similar reasons I firmly believe that unbiased deduction of universal minimal morality is impossible by human beings. I am not supporting an anti-gay measures, ever, period. But I hate when a good cause is argued for using flawed arguments because it undermines the cause. Actually you're pulling the same thing you're criticizing. No, I am not. He argues that there is objective morality and according to that, the law in discussion is proven wrong. I try to argue that such objective morality is impossible to define and thus other means of supporting our common view have to be put forward.
You don't have to have a rigorous argument for the existence of objective morality, you just need "common sense" (sorry for putting it that way, but there's no other way to say it - I don't mean to be offensive).
You yourself were careful to avoid supporting the killing of other human beings in your argument for why cannibalism could be considered morally okay. I'm curious whether you would be willing to go all the way, because if you do it almost becomes a reductio ad absurdum.
Lets take the extreme scenario. Someone who lives at their home and hasn't harmed anyone. Would you say that there is any justifiable moral reason why someone should be allowed to rape, torture, and then kill that person? Do you think that your inability to rigorously prove the existence of objective morality significantly changes the moral calculus involved here?
I don't think it does. 99.99% of all sane people on this planet will agree that that is wrong, and those that don't have a serious mental disorder and should be either treated for their condition or isolated in jail. And if you want a reason why that is I can give you one - we all share the same DNA, and the same brain, so it stands to reason that we all want very similar things and desire to live life happy and free. Of course there will be variation, but there are some fundamental things that, while you can't have 100% certainty (because it doesn't exist anywhere except mathematics), you have overwhelming, 99.99999...% certainty that everyone shares the same views and holds the same values. We all have pain receptors, no one desires extreme pain or death because humans are hard wired that way (assuming that death was final; i.e. no afterlife).
We aren't talking about some complex moral issue that could have people arguing from both sides. It is simply immoral to oppress people based on their sexual orientation, which was chosen for them (through no fault of their own) at birth. The reasons are because it inflicts serious psychological trauma which leads to suicide in many cases, so I see it as a form of mental torture.
The only so-called "argument" from the other side is based on ignorance and religious dogma. I assume you and everyone else here (well almost everyone) are intelligent enough that further explanations are not required.
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On August 03 2013 06:40 laegoose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:25 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 laegoose wrote:
Haha, we have a bunch of hateful/censor laws passed this year, not to mention multi-billion corruption with little to none official investigation. "Gay propaganda law" is the least problem here lol. what are the other problems? ill bash on all your bad laws. this one is just the one im aware of right now. Major internet providers are obliged to block access to sites that have suicide propaganda (youtube blocked because of '20 stupid ways to die' video), drugs propaganda/usage instructions (some EVE forum, because they have stimulators). From August 1st music rightholders can send requests to block sites that have illegal content, no courts involved. Pokerstars blocked just because they can (even though online-poker is legal... yet). The only good thing is that law is enforced badly and actually these blocks happen only in some cities and sometimes get reversed. No public religion-bashing, up to few years jail time penalty. No orphan adoption by US citizens and gay parents, given orphans have insanely bad conditions here and mostly become criminals. Ah, fuck it, they say Russia has strong economy/GDP, but all money are owned by oligarchs and Mr. President friends in government, and you may have heard what happened with Mr. Navalny who investigated some multi-billion frauds.
man all those laws are bad! fuck all legislature that impedes on human rights!
EDIT: we should make a thread of each one individually tho cause this thread is only talking about the one.
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As dumb as it sounds I think we should let Russia do what it will with it's own laws and culture. Prime Directive and all, Russia as a sovereign state will end up where it needs to end up. The world needs all sorts of different social and economic ways of doing things to find the best way forward for humanity. From the capitalist plutocracy of the US, to the social democracy of France, theocracies of the Middle East, one-party communist China we are all experimenting to find the best way.
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On August 03 2013 08:20 Wolfstan wrote:
As dumb as it sounds I think we should let Russia do what it will with it's own laws and culture. Prime Directive and all, Russia as a sovereign state will end up where it needs to end up. The world needs all sorts of different social and economic ways of doing things to find the best way forward for humanity. From the capitalist plutocracy of the US, to the social democracy of France, theocracies of the Middle East, one-party communist China we are all experimenting to find the best way.
Prime directives only apply to other species. The rest of this paragraph is just platitudinal relativist bullshit. We can't stand by while goons in evil governments 'experiment' on our fellow human beings. We are not the servants or property of the government and political borders do not inhibit humanity.
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Russia is fucked up, damn, they just want to grow more white trash to use as manual labour to utilize their massive natural resources
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On August 03 2013 08:28 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 08:20 Wolfstan wrote:
As dumb as it sounds I think we should let Russia do what it will with it's own laws and culture. Prime Directive and all, Russia as a sovereign state will end up where it needs to end up. The world needs all sorts of different social and economic ways of doing things to find the best way forward for humanity. From the capitalist plutocracy of the US, to the social democracy of France, theocracies of the Middle East, one-party communist China we are all experimenting to find the best way. Prime directives only apply to other species. The rest of this paragraph is just platitudinal relativist bullshit. We can't stand by while goons in evil governments 'experiment' on our fellow human beings. We are not the servants or property of the government and political borders do not inhibit humanity.
Just because I have different values than someone doesn't mean I have to impose "the right way" through economic or military action. The only way we find the best approach is trying all sorts of models and laws, see how they work out.
Western society has arrived where we currently are though Medieval monarchies, powerful Catholic clergy, industrial revolutions, imperial aspirations, 2 world wars, a great depression, witnessing collapse of communism and information/internet age. What is happening in Russia will be either an important lesson for them or wary example for us. If current western ideology was adopted throughout the whole world there would be few examples of how not to do things and potential problems/solutions for where we are now.
I am empathetic to Russia's cause because I flip it imagining that Islamist extremists take action without debate because they genuinely believe that removing our leadership and brainwashing our citizens is for our own salvation and happiness.
I'm sorry I used prime directive in my post, I just feel less educated/intelligent than you. I can't begin to comprehend what "platitudinal relativist bullshit" is and any debate I offer will be laced with anecdotal and pop culture references.
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On August 03 2013 09:51 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 08:28 Roe wrote:On August 03 2013 08:20 Wolfstan wrote:
As dumb as it sounds I think we should let Russia do what it will with it's own laws and culture. Prime Directive and all, Russia as a sovereign state will end up where it needs to end up. The world needs all sorts of different social and economic ways of doing things to find the best way forward for humanity. From the capitalist plutocracy of the US, to the social democracy of France, theocracies of the Middle East, one-party communist China we are all experimenting to find the best way. Prime directives only apply to other species. The rest of this paragraph is just platitudinal relativist bullshit. We can't stand by while goons in evil governments 'experiment' on our fellow human beings. We are not the servants or property of the government and political borders do not inhibit humanity. Just because I have different values than someone doesn't mean I have to impose "the right way" through economic or military action. The only way we find the best approach is trying all sorts of models and laws, see how they work out. Western society has arrived where we currently are though Medieval monarchies, powerful Catholic clergy, industrial revolutions, imperial aspirations, 2 world wars, a great depression, witnessing collapse of communism and information/internet age. What is happening in Russia will be either an important lesson for them or wary example for us. If current western ideology was adopted throughout the whole world there would be few examples of how not to do things and potential problems/solutions for where we are now. I am empathetic to Russia's cause because I flip it imagining that Islamist extremists take action without debate because they genuinely believe that removing our leadership and brainwashing our citizens is for our own salvation and happiness. I'm sorry I used prime directive in my post, I just feel less educated/intelligent than you. I can't begin to comprehend what "platitudinal relativist bullshit" is and any debate I offer will be laced with anecdotal and pop culture references.
You're actually trying to justify the assault and possible murder of innocent people... because otherwise we wouldn't have enough diversity in world government... well, I don't even know how to respond to that.
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On August 03 2013 11:01 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 09:51 Wolfstan wrote:On August 03 2013 08:28 Roe wrote:On August 03 2013 08:20 Wolfstan wrote:
As dumb as it sounds I think we should let Russia do what it will with it's own laws and culture. Prime Directive and all, Russia as a sovereign state will end up where it needs to end up. The world needs all sorts of different social and economic ways of doing things to find the best way forward for humanity. From the capitalist plutocracy of the US, to the social democracy of France, theocracies of the Middle East, one-party communist China we are all experimenting to find the best way. Prime directives only apply to other species. The rest of this paragraph is just platitudinal relativist bullshit. We can't stand by while goons in evil governments 'experiment' on our fellow human beings. We are not the servants or property of the government and political borders do not inhibit humanity. Just because I have different values than someone doesn't mean I have to impose "the right way" through economic or military action. The only way we find the best approach is trying all sorts of models and laws, see how they work out. Western society has arrived where we currently are though Medieval monarchies, powerful Catholic clergy, industrial revolutions, imperial aspirations, 2 world wars, a great depression, witnessing collapse of communism and information/internet age. What is happening in Russia will be either an important lesson for them or wary example for us. If current western ideology was adopted throughout the whole world there would be few examples of how not to do things and potential problems/solutions for where we are now. I am empathetic to Russia's cause because I flip it imagining that Islamist extremists take action without debate because they genuinely believe that removing our leadership and brainwashing our citizens is for our own salvation and happiness. I'm sorry I used prime directive in my post, I just feel less educated/intelligent than you. I can't begin to comprehend what "platitudinal relativist bullshit" is and any debate I offer will be laced with anecdotal and pop culture references. You're actually trying to justify the assault and possible murder of innocent people... because otherwise we wouldn't have enough diversity in world government... well, I don't even know how to respond to that.
I'm seen my share of stupid strawmen and you come pretty close to taking the cake.
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On August 03 2013 11:38 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 11:01 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 09:51 Wolfstan wrote:On August 03 2013 08:28 Roe wrote:On August 03 2013 08:20 Wolfstan wrote:
As dumb as it sounds I think we should let Russia do what it will with it's own laws and culture. Prime Directive and all, Russia as a sovereign state will end up where it needs to end up. The world needs all sorts of different social and economic ways of doing things to find the best way forward for humanity. From the capitalist plutocracy of the US, to the social democracy of France, theocracies of the Middle East, one-party communist China we are all experimenting to find the best way. Prime directives only apply to other species. The rest of this paragraph is just platitudinal relativist bullshit. We can't stand by while goons in evil governments 'experiment' on our fellow human beings. We are not the servants or property of the government and political borders do not inhibit humanity. Just because I have different values than someone doesn't mean I have to impose "the right way" through economic or military action. The only way we find the best approach is trying all sorts of models and laws, see how they work out. Western society has arrived where we currently are though Medieval monarchies, powerful Catholic clergy, industrial revolutions, imperial aspirations, 2 world wars, a great depression, witnessing collapse of communism and information/internet age. What is happening in Russia will be either an important lesson for them or wary example for us. If current western ideology was adopted throughout the whole world there would be few examples of how not to do things and potential problems/solutions for where we are now. I am empathetic to Russia's cause because I flip it imagining that Islamist extremists take action without debate because they genuinely believe that removing our leadership and brainwashing our citizens is for our own salvation and happiness. I'm sorry I used prime directive in my post, I just feel less educated/intelligent than you. I can't begin to comprehend what "platitudinal relativist bullshit" is and any debate I offer will be laced with anecdotal and pop culture references. You're actually trying to justify the assault and possible murder of innocent people... because otherwise we wouldn't have enough diversity in world government... well, I don't even know how to respond to that. I'm seen my share of stupid strawmen and you come pretty close to taking the cake.
Just because I have different values than someone doesn't mean I have to impose "the right way" through economic or military action. The only way we find the best approach is trying all sorts of models and laws, see how they work out.
Western society has arrived where we currently are though Medieval monarchies, powerful Catholic clergy, industrial revolutions, imperial aspirations, 2 world wars, a great depression, witnessing collapse of communism and information/internet age. What is happening in Russia will be either an important lesson for them or wary example for us. If current western ideology was adopted throughout the whole world there would be few examples of how not to do things and potential problems/solutions for where we are now.
Yep, totally a strawman to suggest that he's justifying the sacrifice of innocent lives so that we may 'experiment' and have plenty of diversity. But you know what, it's okay. Because at least the http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/senate-resolution-will-call-on-olympics-officials-to-oppose senate recognizes how important it is to oppose this law. Sorry, I prefer not to experiment with human lives so that we might find the "best" approach. If the best approach ever involves murdering and imprisoning innocent people, then count me the hell out.
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I really don't see the problem here at all. Russia is it's own independent country that can make their own rules and laws. No one is forcing anyone else to visit or stay in Russia. If you oppose its laws or beliefs, stay the hell out. Those whining about how they cannot be openly gay and proud in a place where they are clearly hated are selfish and narrow minded. The idea of visiting a foreign country and shoving your own beliefs and lifestyle down their throats where it is NOT welcome or wanted is daft. I applaud Russia for being so open and giving fair warning to those who think giving the middle finger to the host countries laws will be given a free pass. You may not agree with their laws, however you must abide by them or simply not visit the country. It's not a hard concept. Stop trying to shove your own personal beliefs on an entire country of people who obviously live a very different lifestyle than your own. For a group of people that call themselves liberals, they sure are narrow minded and oblivious to others cultures and way of life. Respect their way of life in their country just as they would in ours.
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On August 03 2013 08:20 Wolfstan wrote:
As dumb as it sounds I think we should let Russia do what it will with it's own laws and culture. Prime Directive and all, Russia as a sovereign state will end up where it needs to end up. The world needs all sorts of different social and economic ways of doing things to find the best way forward for humanity. From the capitalist plutocracy of the US, to the social democracy of France, theocracies of the Middle East, one-party communist China we are all experimenting to find the best way.
do you honestly believe this in your heart as a human being.
are you saying we should try out oppressing gay people to see if its right?
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Northern Ireland26762 Posts
I'm pretty sad that I joked earlier that the only way this thread could go more downhill is when the gay = paedophilia discussion occurred. Gargh
Also the complete ignorance of the topic's remit.
I'm not looking to trample on Russian sovereignty, we're discussing the merit of awarding such a prestigious event, in essence a propaganda tool to that country. Same with the Qatar 2022 World Cup which is also a farce.
Should the Olympics be entirely apolitical and just about sport? Have these events become too bloated, too self-important, or should they be more active in political affairs?
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EPT
