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On August 03 2013 02:32 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:18 Zuxo wrote:
Threads like this really bring out all the bigots and assholes in the gaming community. Sad that there are so many of them :/ It also brings out a lot of the hypocrisy in the progressive side; "they're only intolerant because of fucking religion!" Neither sides perfect, one just has the moral highground, so to speak.
Nice equivalence. Are the gay rights proponents using violence? If not, then the gay rights proponents definitely have the high ground.
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At this point I'm beginning to believe people like T.O.P. just don't want to have a debate, they ignore all arguments refuting their points and keep prattling on about their ignorance.
It amazes me how you can keep a bigoted opinion when presented with reason and facts. I guess some people are just too afraid of the unknown and would rather oppress harmless people then face their own fears.
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On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough.
On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest?
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On August 03 2013 03:13 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:56 semantics wrote:On August 03 2013 02:48 T.O.P. wrote:
“The corresponding law doesn't forbid non-traditional orientation, but other things: propaganda, involvement of minors and the youth.”
What the law prohibits is not that you can't be gay. It just says you can't advertise that being gay is acceptable. Which in a society means it prohibits being gay. If you cannot portray being gay as positive or even normal then you effectively make it illegal in the public eye, yet it's fine to portray being gay as evil/bad/wrong etc. Yeah it doesn't say being gay is illegal, it just saying if you're gay you're dead to society shut up and disappear from our view. It's saying if you're gay, keep it to yourself. No one wants to know. They're not in gay people's bedrooms policing them or sending them to mental institutions. So I disagree that they're prohibiting people from being gay. Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:04 marvellosity wrote:On August 03 2013 03:02 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 marvellosity wrote:On August 03 2013 02:55 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 02:54 marvellosity wrote:On August 03 2013 02:46 T.O.P. wrote:On August 03 2013 02:40 marvellosity wrote:On August 03 2013 02:33 T.O.P. wrote:On August 03 2013 01:32 MidKnight wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately homosexuals/transgender people are all grouped into the same "pedophiles/zoophiles" group and they all "need mental help and stay away from our children" etc. What's the difference between homosexuals and the above 2 groups? They're all sexual preferences. If being gay is normal then can being a pedophile can be considered normal as long as they don't violate the age of consent law? On August 03 2013 01:31 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
So your stance is that gays should be treated like 2nd class citizens, yes? 2nd class citizens? What aren't gays allowed to do that straight men can do? I'm anticipating marriage, but gay men are allowed to marry women. The difference is (informed) consent and you've been on this site long enough to know that, so I assume you're being wilfully offensive. And if you're asking the difference between a straight and gay person, you've not read the op or anything In short, please engage your brain before typing such tripe. No I'm asking why the media is trying to label being gay as a good thing while labeling pedophiles as a evil. Because I just pointed out, there's no difference. And as I and several others have pointed out there's a massive difference. Please check your ignorance in at the door No, all you did is insult people and tell them to educate themselves... stop posting shit. Forgive me if I'm not rainbows and flowers to someone telling me pedophilia and homosexuality are the same. So you admit you're full of shit and didn't actually point out anything. Glad we cleared that up. It's ok, I forgive you since I'm not really surprised by this coming from you, just make sure it doesn't happen again. I quite clearly pointed out that the difference is informed consent. At this stage it's clear you have problems with basic reading. Go on, go back and look. I brought up the example of a pedophile not violating age of consent laws. Suppose the pedophile only masturbates to drawings. So what's the difference? Both deviate away from typical sexual norms.
I see a lot of people make these kind of claims. "Be gay, just don't get in our face with it". Well, the reason people "get in your face" is because there's a huge imbalance in the view of homosexuals right now. They ARE being regarded as "abnormal disgusting people with mental issues" in a lot of places in the world. This sort of movement is trying to change that and make you realize that there's nothing fundamentally different about them, they just feel attraction towards the same sex. Maybe it's not "natural" (whatever constitutes as natural to you anyway), but it happens.
In most of these places, a gay couple could NOT hold hands in public, for example, and not be discriminated against. If you say things like "Oh look, what a cute couple" whenever you see a straight couple holding hands, but feel it's ok to discriminate against homosexuals when they show same exact affection, you ARE being intolerant and lack empathy and understanding. "Have your dirty gay sex, but don't expect equality" is not tolerance or understanding, it's just pretense to try and sound rational and tolerant.
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On August 03 2013 03:14 G3CKO wrote:
Russia is a pretty racist country. I don't know people are surprised about this. This kind of stuff is pretty typical down there and it's just embarrassing that a modern country like Russia is still like this in this time of age.
Yes, Russia is racist country, no question about that, here is recent survey about accepting gays in the world for example:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/
However Russia is god damn big country. I am quite certain that people from eastern parts of Russia are much much more against gays than people who have live in big cities like St. Petersburg.
But to be honest, I would not call Russia modern country. They have had really really shity past, before Putin and after the fall on Communism shit really hit the fan in late 90s. They are progressing forward, but are still quite far away from western standards. It is just part of their culture, they will change due to influences in couple of decades or so.
As for boycoting olympics, heh, China had olympics and no country boycoted if I am not mistaken? Why this sould b any different?
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On August 03 2013 03:19 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:18 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:14 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 semantics wrote:On August 03 2013 03:08 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:02 Paljas wrote:On August 03 2013 02:56 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 02:51 Paljas wrote:On August 03 2013 02:48 T.O.P. wrote:
“The corresponding law doesn't forbid non-traditional orientation, but other things: propaganda, involvement of minors and the youth.”
What the law prohibits is not that you can't be gay. It just says you can't advertise that being gay is acceptable. Yes. An such law is not only dumb, but also discriminatory. There are laws in many countries far worse than that, including many U.S. states, why does the rest of the world get to impose their morals on Russia. just because there are worse laws, doesnt mean that people should criticize this particular law in russia. if you want, you can point out some of the laws you hate the most and i will bash them for you. I never said anything about criticizing, everyone can criticize whatever they want, and it's perfectly right to criticize this. A lot of this thread talks about boycotting, or international pressure for them to change the law, I'm pointing out a lot of people have no moral ground to be making such demands when they have even worse laws at home. So because hypocrisy is a thing fuck progress anywhere? Anyways the subject is about LGBT communities and thus the laws particular to the LGBT community there aren't many worse laws out of the nations complaining. Plus Russia as the sweet sauce of being particular violent against the LGBT community and then not punishing those people committing acts of violence. Umm we're posting on an internet forum. There is no progress here, only hypocrisy. So then why are you even posting? Only because I do not like seeing hypocrisy. But you've already said that there can be no progress, only hypocrisy. Is this a tacit admission that you are being a hypocrite?
The statement "There can be no progress, only hypocrisy" means to say among the 2 objects, being progress and hypocrisy, only one of them "exists" here, that doesn't mean everything here is hypocrisy.
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On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest?
Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong.
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On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest?
Fundamental difference is pedophilia is attraction based on Age and homosexuality is attraction based on Gender. The only way they are alike is that they are forms of attraction. But then so is being Straight. Anyways he's trying to use words to describe fallacies but not to actually refute key points in an argument legitimately, but only to use a word in an argument ie the ad populum. It's clear he has no intention to argue to change minds he's just wants the moral high ground for himself.
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On August 03 2013 03:30 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong.
please do not include me in this "public" whoes perception you are dictating
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On August 03 2013 03:31 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Fundamental difference is pedophilia is attraction based on Age and homosexuality is attraction based on Gender. The only way they are alike is that they are forms of attraction. But then so is being Straight. Anyways he's trying to use words to describe fallacies but not to actually refute key points in an argument legitimately only to use a word in an argument ie the ad populum it's clear he has no intention to argue to change minds he's just wants the moral high ground for himself.
Yes because I am on the same side as you in regards to the actual issue of gay rights, and the only thing I am attempting to point out are inconsistencies in your, and others' arguments. (For the argument earlier in the thread, the unbased assumptions being made). Of course I do not address the points to change your mind when I agree with the points themselves.
To address the point you're mentioning. When I argue that a certain assumption might not necessarily be right, and 3 people tells me "no, A leads to B, I know it." There is nothing for me to refute, since I can't prove a negative.
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On August 03 2013 03:30 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong.
A lot of this has to do with the inherently problematic nature of pedophilic material; the vast majority of it is created alongside the exploitation of those unable to give consent. It's nice to pretend that pedophiles are sitting behind closed doors and pleasuring themselves to mere illustrations, but, given what we know in terms of the proliferation of child pornography, this is not the case. In short, the practice of pedophilia is closely enough tied to exploitation that tolerance of it is highly questionable, considerably more so than any concerns in regards to homosexuality.
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On August 03 2013 03:35 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:30 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong. A lot of this has to do with the inherently problematic nature of pedophilic material; the vast majority of it is created alongside the exploitation of those unable to give consent. It's nice to pretend that pedophiles are sitting behind closed doors and pleasuring themselves to mere illustrations, but, given what we know in terms of the proliferation of child pornography, this is not the case. In short, the practice of pedophilia is closely enough tied to exploitation that tolerance of it is highly questionable, considerably more so than any concerns in regards to homosexuality.
Yes, and I agree that pedophelia is more problematic than homosexuality from a pragmatic viewpoint, which you are taking here. However, the equivocation was based on a moral viewpoint, why is one group persecuted for their natural (I assume I am fair in assuming this is near consensus that sexual orientation is natural and not chosen) desires, while another is not, even when the people themselves (consuming the troublesome materials you mention) are doing nothing wrong,
Asking pedophilic people to not view material that satifies them to reduce the people harms seems fairly akin to asking gays to stay in the closet for the betterment of society (which is partially the case in Russia, since they prefer closeted gays with children than happy married gays.)
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On August 03 2013 03:43 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:35 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:30 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong. A lot of this has to do with the inherently problematic nature of pedophilic material; the vast majority of it is created alongside the exploitation of those unable to give consent. It's nice to pretend that pedophiles are sitting behind closed doors and pleasuring themselves to mere illustrations, but, given what we know in terms of the proliferation of child pornography, this is not the case. In short, the practice of pedophilia is closely enough tied to exploitation that tolerance of it is highly questionable, considerably more so than any concerns in regards to homosexuality. Yes, and I agree that pedophelia is more problematic than homosexuality from a pragmatic viewpoint, which you are taking here. However, the equivocation was based on a moral viewpoint, why is one group persecuted for their natural (I assume I am fair in assuming this is near consensus that sexual orientation is natural and not chosen) desires, while another is not, even when the people themselves (consuming the troublesome materials you mention) are doing nothing wrong, Asking pedophilic people to not view material that satifies them to reduce the people harms seems fairly akin to asking gays to stay in the closet for the betterment of society (which is partially the case in Russia, since they prefer closeted gays with children than happy married gays.)
The standard for "harm" is rather different between the viewing of pedophilic material and the open practice of homosexuality, due in large part to the prevalence of exploitation in pedophilia. We "know" that the creation of pedophilic materials and its according encouragement through consumption leads to further exploitation; the genesis of child pornography rings on the internet and the ubiquity of terms like "lolita" in cyberspace are pretty good indications of this. On the other hand, there is little to no evidence that the open practice and expression of homosexuality leads to any palpable societal harm. It is this difference that effectively negates practically every equation.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:35 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:30 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong. A lot of this has to do with the inherently problematic nature of pedophilic material; the vast majority of it is created alongside the exploitation of those unable to give consent. It's nice to pretend that pedophiles are sitting behind closed doors and pleasuring themselves to mere illustrations, but, given what we know in terms of the proliferation of child pornography, this is not the case. In short, the practice of pedophilia is closely enough tied to exploitation that tolerance of it is highly questionable, considerably more so than any concerns in regards to homosexuality.
This is as absurd as people claiming that gay people are rapists.
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On August 03 2013 03:51 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:35 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:30 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong. A lot of this has to do with the inherently problematic nature of pedophilic material; the vast majority of it is created alongside the exploitation of those unable to give consent. It's nice to pretend that pedophiles are sitting behind closed doors and pleasuring themselves to mere illustrations, but, given what we know in terms of the proliferation of child pornography, this is not the case. In short, the practice of pedophilia is closely enough tied to exploitation that tolerance of it is highly questionable, considerably more so than any concerns in regards to homosexuality. This is as absurd as people claiming that gay people are rapists.
Only if you have a vested interest in maintaining a comparison that is entirely toothless.
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If they are cracking down on gay propaganda, I hope that they also crack down on lesbian pornography just to have some consistency.
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On August 03 2013 03:43 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:35 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:30 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 03:23 Feartheguru wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 marvellosity wrote:
No, I didn't. There were 2 parts of his post and I responded to both. This shouldn't be so hard.
At the very least it's interesting you tried to pull me up earlier in the thread, them every single other respondent disagreed with you.
Then you're fine with the guy equating homosexuality and pedophilia, but repeatedly attack the person pulling him up on it.
Then you keep making this fallacious argument about gay rights elsewhere in the world.
Pretty clear what your agenda is in this thread. Earlier in the thread amounted to 3 people making the same assumptions and me telling you guys its not necessarily true. Don't add ad populum to your list of problems. I'm fine with the guy equating? Ya, cause his argument was made to point out inconsistent arguments in this thread. Then I attack you for pulling him up on it cause what you say makes no sense and deserve to be called out. I have not made a single comment regarding my beliefs (and believe it or not I am extremely socially liberal). I'm glad my agenda is clear, too bad I can't clear your shit fast enough. On what basis is the equation of homosexuality with pedophilia at all intellectually honest? Only on the basis of public perseption in regards to what is ok behind closed doors with no laws compromised. Since gays and pedophiles both deviate from the "norm", in a situation where neither breaks any laws to satisfy themselves, why is one group persecuted here for their orientation while the other is not, when neither is doing anything wrong. A lot of this has to do with the inherently problematic nature of pedophilic material; the vast majority of it is created alongside the exploitation of those unable to give consent. It's nice to pretend that pedophiles are sitting behind closed doors and pleasuring themselves to mere illustrations, but, given what we know in terms of the proliferation of child pornography, this is not the case. In short, the practice of pedophilia is closely enough tied to exploitation that tolerance of it is highly questionable, considerably more so than any concerns in regards to homosexuality. Yes, and I agree that pedophelia is more problematic than homosexuality from a pragmatic viewpoint, which you are taking here. However, the equivocation was based on a moral viewpoint, why is one group persecuted for their natural (I assume I am fair in assuming this is near consensus that sexual orientation is natural and not chosen) desires, while another is not, even when the people themselves (consuming the troublesome materials you mention) are doing nothing wrong, Asking pedophilic people to not view material that satifies them to reduce the people harms seems fairly akin to asking gays to stay in the closet for the betterment of society (which is partially the case in Russia, since they prefer closeted gays with children than happy married gays.)
Gay people are not simply asked to stay in the closet. The negative propaganda against homosexuals is still perfectly legal (and for the most part encouraged) while the defense of homosexuals is illegal. Therefore the law is not meant to simply protect the general population's sensibilities as you imply (if that were true then all talk about homesecuality whether pro or anti would be forbidden), but to promote a state view that homosexuals are less human then heterosexuals. If you see nothing wrong with that then I guess there is nothing left to argue about.
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On August 03 2013 04:00 Shiragaku wrote:
If they are cracking down on gay propaganda, I hope that they also crack down on lesbian pornography just to have some consistency.
if holding hands in public is gay propaganda.
then lesbian pornography is gay propaganda.
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The problem is this is not about right and wrong. The perception of right and wrong is part of Your cultural inhertiance,it is based in society You live, in Your experience with it. There are many societies in the world in which sex with 12 year old is right. Do You think its ok? I dont think so. Me neither. We have different cultural experience than them. It is obvious that we want our views to prevail, but we are not any more right than they are.
I would love if people would finnaly acknoweldged it. Say: "We want Russia to comply with OUR World View rather than with ONE AND ONLY PROPER World View.
Its ok if You want people to think like You, its natural. But theres no right and wrong in morality,no good and bad. Only "our" and "theirs".
Relativistic? Yes. Sadly its the only thing that makes sense in moral philosophy.
Edit: This is in response to all people claiming its WRONG to prosecute homosexuals (or any behavior for that matter).
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On August 03 2013 04:28 Silvanel wrote:
The problem is this is not about right and wrong. The perception of right and wrong is part of Your cultural inhertiance,it is based in society You live, in Your experience with it. There are many societies in the world in which sex with 12 year old is right. Do You think its ok? I dont think so. Me neither. We have different cultural experience than them. It is obvious that we want our views to prevail, but we are not any more right than they are.
I would love if people would finnaly acknoweldged it. Say: "We want Russia to comply with OUR World View rather than with ONE AND ONLY PROPER World View.
Its ok if You want people to think like You, its natural. But theres no right and wrong in morality,no good and bad. Only "our" and "theirs".
Relativistic? Yes. Sadly its the only thing that makes sense in moral philosophy.
Edit: This is in response to all people claiming its WRONG to prosecute homosexuals (or any behavior for that matter).
Simply saying that relativism is the only thing that makes sense in moral philosophy does not make it true.
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EPT
