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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 07 2020 05:09 CorsairHero wrote: Is it a coincidence the Queen gave a speech yesterday? You believe that she knew of his worsening situation and did it to indirectly convey the message while telling the public to stay strong? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22683 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9099 Posts
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KwarK
United States41965 Posts
On April 07 2020 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote: Wait, so I'm reading the UK doesn't have a formal succession plan? There's a deputy PM but we don't have a formal anything, we don't have a constitution. The PM is essentially an MP wrangler on behalf of the Queen. If the PM can't herd MPs anymore then the Queen appoints a new MP wrangler. The British constitution is pretty interesting because it mostly relies upon the idea that if anyone took the piss too hard then somebody would say something. The rules are mostly just proper form but are followed because everyone knows they should be followed. We only recently got around to writing down that we had to hold elections on some kind of schedule but that's only written down by Parliament, Parliament could amend it or reverse it. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On April 07 2020 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote: Wait, so I'm reading the UK doesn't have a formal succession plan? Nope its whoever can command the confidence of the house of commons, somewhat directed by the cabinet, civil service and the queen. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22683 Posts
On April 07 2020 06:23 Sent. wrote: Are you talking about the queen or the prime minister PM, but isn't the Queen a bit of a succession anomaly herself? ty for the answers everyone btw | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On April 07 2020 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: PM, but isn't the Queen a bit of a succession anomaly herself? ty for the answers everyone btw She is succeeded by her eldest son Charles for the crowns of all the nations she is queen of. Commonwealth is unknown but Charles will go for it still. | ||
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psyCrowe
Scotland195 Posts
On April 07 2020 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: but isn't the Queen a bit of a succession anomaly herself? In a sense, yes. Traditionally the role of monarch went to the first born. George V (monarch during WWI, cousin & doppelganger of Nicholas Romanov, current queen's grandfather) passed away so the role went to his first born ( Edward VII , party boy, current queen's uncle) who abdicated, leaving the next oldest (George VI, WWII monarch, current queen's father) in line to take the throne. With Elizabeth II being the first in line, she got the role once he passed away  Edit: A cynic point of view would see this as perfect marketing for Boris Johnson to appreciate the substantial role the NHS provides in the UK and further advocate it's public ownership. I'm no conspiracy theorist though  | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2514 Posts
On April 07 2020 06:26 KwarK wrote: There's a deputy PM but we don't have a formal anything, we don't have a constitution. The PM is essentially an MP wrangler on behalf of the Queen. If the PM can't herd MPs anymore then the Queen appoints a new MP wrangler. That's the best description of a PM I've ever seen. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11924 Posts
For example here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/12/hostility-to-corbyn-curbed-labour-efforts-to-tackle-antisemitism-says-leaked-report or here: https://novaramedia.com/2020/04/12/its-going-to-be-a-long-night-how-members-of-labours-senior-management-campaigned-to-lose/ | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10597 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
Last week we had news of an conservative MP accused of rape and sexual harassment. After that the tory party just hushed it down, the MP hasn't been named (yes, one constituency in the UK is represented by a man accused of rape, but even the constituents don't know if it is their MP) and he has not been suspended from the party. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/03/tory-minister-refuses-to-confirm-whether-chief-whip-knew-of-rape-claims-against-mp The conservative whip defended keeping this MP in by saying that they are waiting for the police inquiry, i.e. it is okay as long as it is not deemed criminal by law enforcement. Now, one may reasonably not expect a lot of human decency from the people who have made their way into the house of commons, and especially from that side of the house, but still. If the house of parliament does not manage to set a better example than this what is going on? I'm also surprised by the lack of media attention, or the opposition parties bringing it up. Yes the parliament is in recess, (convenient timing for the allegations to surface...) but still. Press has moved onto other issues, also important don't get me wrong. But silence and lack of any sort of acknowledgment that this is really fucked up, while government is trying to clear its image on sex crimes through initiatives like rape prosecution targets: www.theguardian.com Just makes me very very angry. Queue the meme of "our expectations of you were low, but holy fuck" /rant over | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
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KwarK
United States41965 Posts
On August 11 2020 22:28 Sr18 wrote: Is there a reason why we shouldn't wait for the results of the police investigation? General lack of faith in the justice system. It’s a difficult balance, especially when a genuine public interest is involved. A guy I went to school with was reported in national newspapers as being accused of sexual assault in the mid 2000s and had his photo printed on the front page of the Mail. It got in front of a judge who correctly dismissed it pretrial because there was no evidence of the assault and a lot of evidence that the “victim”, who had her anonymity protected, had mental health issues and had been stalking him. The Mail then ran an editorial arguing that it was prejudicial to protect the victim’s identity but not the accused when, as it turned out in this case, the victim was the accused. Always struck me as shitty because they’re the ones who printed his photo next to the accusations. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17835 Posts
On August 11 2020 22:55 KwarK wrote: General lack of faith in the justice system. It’s a difficult balance, especially when a genuine public interest is involved. A guy I went to school with was reported in national newspapers as being accused of sexual assault in the mid 2000s and had his photo printed on the front page of the Mail. It got in front of a judge who correctly dismissed it pretrial because there was no evidence of the assault and a lot of evidence that the “victim”, who had her anonymity protected, had mental health issues and had been stalking him. The Mail then ran an editorial arguing that it was prejudicial to protect the victim’s identity but not the accused when, as it turned out in this case, the victim was the accused. Always struck me as shitty because they’re the ones who printed his photo next to the accusations. Lack of faith in the justice system. So lets use mob rule instead? I mean, I totally understand that courts move slow, and an MP should lose his job before the court eventually finds him guilty if he is actually a rapist. But as you say, just because someone accuses someone of something doesn't mean it happened. | ||
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KwarK
United States41965 Posts
On August 11 2020 23:03 Acrofales wrote: Lack of faith in the justice system. So lets use mob rule instead? I mean, I totally understand that courts move slow, and an MP should lose his job before the court eventually finds him guilty if he is actually a rapist. But as you say, just because someone accuses someone of something doesn't mean it happened. I’m not advocating for mob rule, I’m explaining it. Mob justice is the logical consequence of popular discontent with the appearance of one set of rules for us and another for those in power. I don’t think mob justice is a good thing but it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. People are far more likely to say “it’s too soon to judge anything, let the system work” when they believe in the system. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 11 2020 20:44 Oukka wrote: I'm gonna bump this one asking what the heck is the UK press/parliamentary institution doing right now? I will also answer it by the cynical, yes I know they are doing their job at placating the conservative establishment. But why isn't there more of an outrage going on? Last week we had news of an conservative MP accused of rape and sexual harassment. After that the tory party just hushed it down, the MP hasn't been named (yes, one constituency in the UK is represented by a man accused of rape, but even the constituents don't know if it is their MP) and he has not been suspended from the party. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/03/tory-minister-refuses-to-confirm-whether-chief-whip-knew-of-rape-claims-against-mp The conservative whip defended keeping this MP in by saying that they are waiting for the police inquiry, i.e. it is okay as long as it is not deemed criminal by law enforcement. Now, one may reasonably not expect a lot of human decency from the people who have made their way into the house of commons, and especially from that side of the house, but still. If the house of parliament does not manage to set a better example than this what is going on? I'm also surprised by the lack of media attention, or the opposition parties bringing it up. Yes the parliament is in recess, (convenient timing for the allegations to surface...) but still. Press has moved onto other issues, also important don't get me wrong. But silence and lack of any sort of acknowledgment that this is really fucked up, while government is trying to clear its image on sex crimes through initiatives like rape prosecution targets: www.theguardian.com Just makes me very very angry. Queue the meme of "our expectations of you were low, but holy fuck" /rant over I'm honestly not entirely sure what the problem here is. This is how it's supposed to work. What exactly are you proposing? Plastering his picture and name over everything in the yellow press, suspend him for literally no legal reason? People here say apparently "lack of confidence in the justice system" is the problem, here is mine: i don't trust rape allegations without any evidence. I also don't trust the general public to be able to distinguish between a rape allegation and a rape conviction. For the most part, both these things are the same in the "court of public opinion". If it turns out that he did it, let him rot in jail for life, for all i care. I'm not defending a rapist. What i do defend is the presumption of innocence. Especially with rape allegations, which Andreas Türck, a german moderator, accused of rape. Got fired immediately, lost his show etc - only eight years after his total acquittal he got another job as moderator. Joerg Kachelmann, german weather man. Got accused of rape, won a total acquittal including a confession by the alleged victim (after sitting 4 months in jail until trial), sued german yellow press and won 700.000 euros in damages for ruining his name for no reason, then pursued a civil case against the alleged victim for false accusations, won that too. That was in 2017. The original trial was in 2010. He had to sell his production company, lost all his advertising contracts and is still banned from the TV channel he worked for. That's the outcome of false allegations. In a perfect world, a false accusation leads to nothing other than the alleged victim thrown into jail for trying to ruin a mans life on purpose - but that's not what's happening. A woman accusing someone falsely for rape gets a slap on the wrist (in the Kachelmann case, the alleged victim had to pay 7000 euros to Kachelmann - weigh that against the damages to his name, finances, life) - and the innocent man still gets royally fucked regardless. Again. I'm not defending a rapist, but people like you exactly highlight why it actually might be necessary to have it play out in silence until the police makes a recommendation. Do i trust the british justice system? No. I don't. But even less than that do i trust people like you to make the correct/reasonable decisions. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 12 2020 11:03 m4ini wrote: I'm honestly not entirely sure what the problem here is. This is how it's supposed to work. What exactly are you proposing? Plastering his picture and name over everything in the yellow press, suspend him for literally no legal reason? People here say apparently "lack of confidence in the justice system" is the problem, here is mine: i don't trust rape allegations without any evidence. I also don't trust the general public to be able to distinguish between a rape allegation and a rape conviction. For the most part, both these things are the same in the "court of public opinion". If it turns out that he did it, let him rot in jail for life, for all i care. I'm not defending a rapist. What i do defend is the presumption of innocence. Especially with rape allegations, which Andreas Türck, a german moderator, accused of rape. Got fired immediately, lost his show etc - only eight years after his total acquittal he got another job as moderator. Joerg Kachelmann, german weather man. Got accused of rape, won a total acquittal including a confession by the alleged victim (after sitting 4 months in jail until trial), sued german yellow press and won 700.000 euros in damages for ruining his name for no reason, then pursued a civil case against the alleged victim for false accusations, won that too. That was in 2017. The original trial was in 2010. He had to sell his production company, lost all his advertising contracts and is still banned from the TV channel he worked for. That's the outcome of false allegations. In a perfect world, a false accusation leads to nothing other than the alleged victim thrown into jail for trying to ruin a mans life on purpose - but that's not what's happening. A woman accusing someone falsely for rape gets a slap on the wrist (in the Kachelmann case, the alleged victim had to pay 7000 euros to Kachelmann - weigh that against the damages to his name, finances, life) - and the innocent man still gets royally fucked regardless. Again. I'm not defending a rapist, but people like you exactly highlight why it actually might be necessary to have it play out in silence until the police makes a recommendation. Do i trust the british justice system? No. I don't. But even less than that do i trust people like you to make the correct/reasonable decisions. Did the courts actually find that the allegations were false, or was there just a lack of evidence to convict then accused and the accusers had to pay damages essentially? I don't know these cases. Why I am very frustrated is because the courts not only are slow, but just don't do their job. What I don't understand how it acceptable that when 50000 rapes are reported to the police only 2000 of them lead into prosecution. Courts and the police are not working as intended. The false allegations happen so rarely compared to the criminal justice system failing the victims that there is absolutely no reason to bring it up as an argument here. Yes I don't want one person unjustly convicted, but I also don't want 40000+ victims going without justice. Also acquittal doesn't mean something didn't happen, it also comes from when court could not agree on what happened/evidence was not sufficient to exert states punitive powers on someone. Yes, innocent until proven guilty is a thing, this has recently been talked to death in other threads relating to sexual harassment in the esports scenes. Another reason to be upset is the sheer lack of morality that is expressed here. The woman accusing the MP reported this to the party four months ago, they did nothing. If nothing else it erodes public trust in both the government (which shouldn't much to begin with) and sends a message that when you're part of the club you can get away with anything. We have a huge problem of sexual crimes being under investigated and under prosecuted. The governing party is trying to, at least superficially, fix this as they see it is not good (publicity) that the prosecution rates remain so low. I.e. criminal justice system is not working as it should. But as soon as something hits too close to home they hide behind the same process they've just themselves declared insufficient. Temporary suspension from the party, admit the MP back when/if he is acquitted, public condemnation of sexual harassment both in workplace and in general are where you start from. Not this, we will act if he is found out to be criminal by the process we just ourselves said isn't good enough. That is why I am angry. TL:DR I'm yelling not because I want the MP accused publicly executed, but because this is a case of national interest and it highlights the inadequacy of the system. | ||
Gorsameth
Netherlands21351 Posts
There is usually a lack of witnesses, if its consensual sex turning non-consensual its often purely he said/she said. If its brought up some time after the fact there is often no DNA evidence. | ||
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120720
95 Posts
I heard Russia was OK with it, and as I know very little I thought it could be logical but then I read that the UK is OK with the situation? Are they getting anything from Belarus? Do they want to appease the tension with Russia? I don't know what my country think about it either. | ||
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