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Northern Ireland23792 Posts
On December 13 2019 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Labour’s problems were, amongst other things trying to simultaneously placate the Brexit voting areas of its traditional heartlands while also trying to placate the staunch remain supporting elements of much of its London support.
I mean you can’t do both, as they’ve discovered. Cowardly politics doesn't work in the internet age. Voters want Bernie, Trump, Boris etc
What’s different from Corbyn to Bernie?
The Brexit hand grenade fucks all sort of other policy considerations and Labour didn’t negotiate it well which I’ll 100% concede.
Corbyn’s politics are cowardly? The fuck are Boris Johnson’s?
Dumb people voting for dumb stuff is ultimately the issue here. If people want to vote for a proven liar then that’s their prerogative, voting for a proven liar at the head of a party that has been in government for this long as the ‘voice of change’ well no you’re an idiot.
350 million for the NHS though
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On December 13 2019 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Labour’s problems were, amongst other things trying to simultaneously placate the Brexit voting areas of its traditional heartlands while also trying to placate the staunch remain supporting elements of much of its London support.
I mean you can’t do both, as they’ve discovered. Cowardly politics doesn't work in the internet age. Voters want Bernie, Trump, Boris etc
I'd rephrase it as cowardly politics work, given voters want Boris and Trump
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On December 13 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Labour’s problems were, amongst other things trying to simultaneously placate the Brexit voting areas of its traditional heartlands while also trying to placate the staunch remain supporting elements of much of its London support.
I mean you can’t do both, as they’ve discovered. Cowardly politics doesn't work in the internet age. Voters want Bernie, Trump, Boris etc What’s different from Corbyn to Bernie? The Brexit hand grenade fucks all sort of other policy considerations and Labour didn’t negotiate it well which I’ll 100% concede. Corbyn’s politics are cowardly? The fuck are Boris Johnson’s? Dumb people voting for dumb stuff is ultimately the issue here. If people want to vote for a proven liar then that’s their prerogative, voting for a proven liar at the head of a party that has been in government for this long as the ‘voice of change’ well no you’re an idiot. 350 million for the NHS though
Perhaps aggressive would have been a better word. People want conviction and certainty.
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Northern Ireland23792 Posts
On December 13 2019 10:30 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 13 2019 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Labour’s problems were, amongst other things trying to simultaneously placate the Brexit voting areas of its traditional heartlands while also trying to placate the staunch remain supporting elements of much of its London support.
I mean you can’t do both, as they’ve discovered. Cowardly politics doesn't work in the internet age. Voters want Bernie, Trump, Boris etc What’s different from Corbyn to Bernie? The Brexit hand grenade fucks all sort of other policy considerations and Labour didn’t negotiate it well which I’ll 100% concede. Corbyn’s politics are cowardly? The fuck are Boris Johnson’s? Dumb people voting for dumb stuff is ultimately the issue here. If people want to vote for a proven liar then that’s their prerogative, voting for a proven liar at the head of a party that has been in government for this long as the ‘voice of change’ well no you’re an idiot. 350 million for the NHS though Perhaps aggressive would have been a better word. People want conviction and certainty.
Which he’s not exactly lacking on, outside the Brexit issue.
But there’s that, there’s been a sustained media attack on ‘Red Corbyn’ which is only really fully comprehensible for us who live in the UK, the whole Labour anti-Semitisim angle etc etc.
There’s nothing especially complicated here, no posturing that was going to be successful.
Voters want Brexit and voters want austerity measures
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United States41976 Posts
On December 13 2019 10:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 10:30 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 13 2019 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Labour’s problems were, amongst other things trying to simultaneously placate the Brexit voting areas of its traditional heartlands while also trying to placate the staunch remain supporting elements of much of its London support.
I mean you can’t do both, as they’ve discovered. Cowardly politics doesn't work in the internet age. Voters want Bernie, Trump, Boris etc What’s different from Corbyn to Bernie? The Brexit hand grenade fucks all sort of other policy considerations and Labour didn’t negotiate it well which I’ll 100% concede. Corbyn’s politics are cowardly? The fuck are Boris Johnson’s? Dumb people voting for dumb stuff is ultimately the issue here. If people want to vote for a proven liar then that’s their prerogative, voting for a proven liar at the head of a party that has been in government for this long as the ‘voice of change’ well no you’re an idiot. 350 million for the NHS though Perhaps aggressive would have been a better word. People want conviction and certainty. Which he’s not exactly lacking on, outside the Brexit issue. But there’s that, there’s been a sustained media attack on ‘Red Corbyn’ which is only really fully comprehensible for us who live in the UK, the whole Labour anti-Semitisim angle etc etc. There’s nothing especially complicated here, no posturing that was going to be successful. Voters want Brexit and voters want austerity measures
America has seen 11 straight years of economic growth since the Great Recession and Britain is still preaching hard times, spending cuts, and belt tightening. It’s weird.
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On December 13 2019 10:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 10:30 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 13 2019 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Labour’s problems were, amongst other things trying to simultaneously placate the Brexit voting areas of its traditional heartlands while also trying to placate the staunch remain supporting elements of much of its London support.
I mean you can’t do both, as they’ve discovered. Cowardly politics doesn't work in the internet age. Voters want Bernie, Trump, Boris etc What’s different from Corbyn to Bernie? The Brexit hand grenade fucks all sort of other policy considerations and Labour didn’t negotiate it well which I’ll 100% concede. Corbyn’s politics are cowardly? The fuck are Boris Johnson’s? Dumb people voting for dumb stuff is ultimately the issue here. If people want to vote for a proven liar then that’s their prerogative, voting for a proven liar at the head of a party that has been in government for this long as the ‘voice of change’ well no you’re an idiot. 350 million for the NHS though Perhaps aggressive would have been a better word. People want conviction and certainty. Which he’s not exactly lacking on, outside the Brexit issue. But there’s that, there’s been a sustained media attack on ‘Red Corbyn’ which is only really fully comprehensible for us who live in the UK, the whole Labour anti-Semitisim angle etc etc. There’s nothing especially complicated here, no posturing that was going to be successful. Voters want Brexit and voters want austerity measures
Look at how many people were convinced by Boris. Now how many were convinced by Corbyn. Corbyn is clearly the problem here. Corbyn doesn't have an appealing enough vision. It's bizarre seeing how long he's been able to hold on to power with such a record of failure.
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Doesn't the SNP vote in a coalition with Labor? If so, do the seats that the labor party loses to the SNP not really matter?
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On December 13 2019 11:55 Gorgonoth wrote:
Doesn't the SNP vote in a coalition with Labor? If so, do the seats that the labor party loses to the SNP not really matter?
purely for stopping a conservative government no but it has longer term implications that Scotland's lead party can never run the UK.
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Doesn't Corbyn have the support of the key unions and organisations supporting Labour as well as virtually the entire NEC and a lot of grassroots support? At least I know he did when Owen Smith issued a leadership challenge 3-4 years ago? It's very much Labour having shot themselves in the foot but dear god I do hope everything doesn't go to complete shit with Brexit and more importantly, a long term Johnson govt
Also as someone living in Scotland, I won't pretend I think independence is great but I think independence in the EU is far better than Brexit. I don't really understand how it works (I really ought to) but Westminster holds ridiculous power for blocking the SNP from legally and formally going through with legislation and execution of a 2nd independence referendum by virtue of the Scotland Act and restrictions on what the Scottish Parliament can legislate on. Even then, we could end up with a Catalan situation just maybe not as violent or repressive
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On December 13 2019 11:45 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 10:38 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 13 2019 10:30 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 13 2019 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Labour’s problems were, amongst other things trying to simultaneously placate the Brexit voting areas of its traditional heartlands while also trying to placate the staunch remain supporting elements of much of its London support.
I mean you can’t do both, as they’ve discovered. Cowardly politics doesn't work in the internet age. Voters want Bernie, Trump, Boris etc What’s different from Corbyn to Bernie? The Brexit hand grenade fucks all sort of other policy considerations and Labour didn’t negotiate it well which I’ll 100% concede. Corbyn’s politics are cowardly? The fuck are Boris Johnson’s? Dumb people voting for dumb stuff is ultimately the issue here. If people want to vote for a proven liar then that’s their prerogative, voting for a proven liar at the head of a party that has been in government for this long as the ‘voice of change’ well no you’re an idiot. 350 million for the NHS though Perhaps aggressive would have been a better word. People want conviction and certainty. Which he’s not exactly lacking on, outside the Brexit issue. But there’s that, there’s been a sustained media attack on ‘Red Corbyn’ which is only really fully comprehensible for us who live in the UK, the whole Labour anti-Semitisim angle etc etc. There’s nothing especially complicated here, no posturing that was going to be successful. Voters want Brexit and voters want austerity measures Look at how many people were convinced by Boris. Now how many were convinced by Corbyn. Corbyn is clearly the problem here. Corbyn doesn't have an appealing enough vision. It's bizarre seeing how long he's been able to hold on to power with such a record of failure.
This.
This is so obvious to anyone who isn't a hardcore corbynist. I was curious what people would blame, and of course they blame "the media". It's the theys again. It has nothing to do with Corbyn being an objectively awful politician, with no clear direction or energy.
Nope: it's the theys. Those liars that made labour politicians like antisemitic shit on facebook. The Rabbi calling out Labour for not doing enough against anti-semitism? Tory-planted. Guaranteed.
It's fascinating to me personally, since i really don't have a horse in this race (i don't vote), how bad selective perception has become with people who are for "something" by default. The media didn't just flak Corbyn (and might i add, rightfully so). They went to town on Boris too, portraying him as a coward (again, rightfully so) hiding in fridges and dodging interviews.
And to be clear here, this result isn't surprising either. Someone who doesn't plant a flag in his garden or put stickers on his car and just looked objectively at the toxic shitshow that UK politics have become, could see this coming from miles away.
Is he solely to blame for this monumental disaster? No, of course not. But to argue that it's "everyone else" that smeared Corbyn to the point where nobody liked him anymore is absolutely delusional. Like properly "you should get yourself checked" insane. I absolutely expect him to resign - and maybe, the next election, Labour can run as a party behind a leader instead of this fractured clusterfuck running behind a dude who's only in for himself. Old Labour (the "concept") needs to just die away.
edit:
Corbyn: I will not lead the party in any future general election campaign.
Thank god, then there's only one thing to do now. Hope that Johnson and his stooges don't screw up the country beyond repair, and get to work in a few years.
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On December 13 2019 10:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 10:30 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 13 2019 09:57 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2019 09:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Labour’s problems were, amongst other things trying to simultaneously placate the Brexit voting areas of its traditional heartlands while also trying to placate the staunch remain supporting elements of much of its London support.
I mean you can’t do both, as they’ve discovered. Cowardly politics doesn't work in the internet age. Voters want Bernie, Trump, Boris etc What’s different from Corbyn to Bernie? The Brexit hand grenade fucks all sort of other policy considerations and Labour didn’t negotiate it well which I’ll 100% concede. Corbyn’s politics are cowardly? The fuck are Boris Johnson’s? Dumb people voting for dumb stuff is ultimately the issue here. If people want to vote for a proven liar then that’s their prerogative, voting for a proven liar at the head of a party that has been in government for this long as the ‘voice of change’ well no you’re an idiot. 350 million for the NHS though Perhaps aggressive would have been a better word. People want conviction and certainty. But there’s that, there’s been a sustained media attack on ‘Red Corbyn’ which is only really fully comprehensible for us who live in the UK, the whole Labour anti-Semitisim angle etc etc.
Confused as to how you can (correctly) think that and also at the same time think that there isn't a capitalist class, like you said in the other thread.
Like, this happened for a reason.
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Congratulations on getting rid of Corbyn. Only a landslide defeat would be a just exit for that one.
It looks like Johnson's "enough already" approach to Brexit and his Brexit deal pays off. He flipped seats that have been Labour since the 1930s. I have no real thoughts on him as a Tory prime minister beyond that. Brexit's just so dominant, and dislike of Corbyn right below that.
Almost on cue, the Guardian has an article criticism of Russian influence in the British political system by Glenn Simpson of Fusion GPS/Steele dossier fame.
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Jo Swinson Lib dem leader has lost her seat.
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Unsurprisingly a socialist anti Semite loses an election by a landslide. He didn't get bailed out by a terrible campaigner like May this time. Hopefully labour will elect a better leader next time and be more competitive.
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On December 13 2019 14:31 RvB wrote:
Unsurprisingly a socialist anti Semite loses an election by a landslide. He didn't get bailed out by a terrible campaigner like May this time. Hopefully labour will elect a better leader next time and be more competitive.
Johnson's campaign was awful. He hid in a fridge from a journalist a couple of days ago ffs.
Corbyn's was just worse. He misjudged everything and his stupid offers like free internet were transparent and unachievable, so that put people off even more. Even hardcore Labour voters who don't believe the antisemitism stuff didn't wanna vote for him in the end because the manifesto just sounded like bullshit promises.
I think what made it worse is that he didn't even sound like Jeremy Corbyn by the end. None of what made him appeal to some people in the first place was there, he was boring, uninspired and too 'politiciany'
Listening to the radio yesterday its you hear the same thing over and over again. No good candidates so everyone just voted for the easiest option. Get Brexit done and nothing much else changes too much is what I think people are hoping for.
If you think its bad for Labour, the Lib Dems leader couldn't even win her own seat. They were supposed to be one of the big winners when this election was called but they ended up being a big nothingburger.
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On December 13 2019 14:31 RvB wrote:
Unsurprisingly a socialist anti Semite loses an election by a landslide. He didn't get bailed out by a terrible campaigner like May this time. Hopefully labour will elect a better leader next time and be more competitive.
They need to come back toward the centre from the far left fringe, which may win them back some traditional working class voters.
The party is run by an out of touch metropolitan elite, no wonder they got destroyed up north, had to happen eventually.
Seeing Brexit Party win 30% in some Labour leave seats should be an eyeopener but they'll ignore it I imagine.
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Canada5565 Posts
Happy for the results tonight. 2020 will be wild.
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Everybody is talking about a landslide victory. But as I read the detailed results, the Conservatives did not win the majority of the votes.
I wouldn't know how to use my vote, if I was a British left-wing voter. Either I had to vote for Labour or else the vote would most likely be wasted.
I'm glad that Denmark created adjustment seats back in 1915 to insure a minimum of wasted votes.
Are the Britons generally pleased with their voting system?
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On December 13 2019 15:52 Napoleon53 wrote:
Everybody is talking about a landslide victory. But as I read the detailed results, the Conservatives did not win the majority of the votes.
I wouldn't know how to use my vote, if I was a British left-wing voter. Either I had to vote for Labour or else the vote would most likely be wasted.
I'm glad that Denmark created adjustment seats back in 1915 to insure a minimum of wasted votes.
Are the Britons generally pleased with their voting system?
There was a referendum on FPTP about 9 years ago and we voted not to change anything for some stupid reason.
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To all who say the problem was Corbyn: Who was the last Labour leader who was NOT demonised by the right-wing press? Ed Miliband was a weirdo who stabbed his brother in the back. Gordon Brown was a Scot who would put Scotland's interests ahead of England. I think early Blair was not demonised to the same extent but he was only centre-left.
On December 13 2019 16:44 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2019 15:52 Napoleon53 wrote:
Everybody is talking about a landslide victory. But as I read the detailed results, the Conservatives did not win the majority of the votes.
I wouldn't know how to use my vote, if I was a British left-wing voter. Either I had to vote for Labour or else the vote would most likely be wasted.
I'm glad that Denmark created adjustment seats back in 1915 to insure a minimum of wasted votes.
Are the Britons generally pleased with their voting system?
There was a referendum on FPTP about 9 years ago and we voted not to change anything for some stupid reason.
That wasn't a referendum on FPTP but a referendum on how we decide who won each seat. The alternative vote system is/was still FPTP. It would rule out the need for tactical voting, but that's all.
Currently the total votes are 13.9m Tory and 10.3m Labour. The anti-Brexit parties, or at least 2nd referendum parties, are receiving more votes but will be massively behind in seats.
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EPT
