EPTAnd then it's back to the above choice, Brexit or Socialism.
Labour needs to get back to Centre-Left. Can't believe I agree with Nettles on something politics-related but here we are.
UK Politics Mega-thread - Page 576
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Laurens
Belgium4517 Posts
And then it's back to the above choice, Brexit or Socialism. Labour needs to get back to Centre-Left. Can't believe I agree with Nettles on something politics-related but here we are. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11926 Posts
On December 13 2019 17:59 Laurens wrote: The voting system definitely deserves some blame. The choice in this election was essentially "Brexit with Boris" or "Socialism". To me, both options suck. On paper the LibDems offer an alternative that solves this issue but in reality they stand no chance of winning so a LibDem vote is a wasted vote. And then it's back to the above choice, Brexit or Socialism. Labour needs to get back to Centre-Left. Can't believe I agree with Nettles on something politics-related but here we are. The left moving center-left is the reason why the far right is getting stronger. This has been happening everywhere for the last 40 years, and it's also pretty self-evident just logically speaking. Nettles understands this and this is why he wants the left to move back to the center. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4517 Posts
On December 13 2019 18:10 Nebuchad wrote: The left moving center-left is the reason why the far right is getting stronger. This has been happening everywhere for the last 40 years, and it's also pretty self-evident just logically speaking. Nettles understands this and this is why he wants the left to move back to the center. That's an interesting take on things. Perhaps true in certain areas of Europe but definitely not in the UK, there was nothing Center-left about Corbyn and Labour just posted the worst result since the 1930s. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11926 Posts
On December 13 2019 18:12 Laurens wrote: That's an interesting take on things. Perhaps true in certain areas of Europe but definitely not in the UK, there was nothing Center-left about Corbyn and Labour just posted the worst result since the 1930s. Doesn't contradict what I said in any way, and if the voters were yearning for the center left they could have voted for the lib dems who also did very bad. | ||
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stilt
France2736 Posts
Anyway bye Corbyn, a leftist who follows the City and is an antisemitism ? He is showing how the left and any real social justice are hoepeless in the occidental world, a leftist is now only interested about identitary policies, outside of them, they are just the servants of liberalism. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9343 Posts
On December 13 2019 19:14 stilt wrote: Oh people basically voted for a decision they took 3 years ago, how surprising ! Anyway bye Corbyn, a leftist who follows the City and is an antisemitism ? He is showing how the left and any real social justice are hoepeless in the occidental world, a leftist is now only interested about identitary policies, outside of them, they are just the servants of liberalism. none of this is true except maybe the first sentence | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23791 Posts
On December 13 2019 12:33 Nebuchad wrote: Confused as to how you can (correctly) think that and also at the same time think that there isn't a capitalist class, like you said in the other thread. Like, this happened for a reason. I say a lot of things :p Nah in that particular instance I meant there isn’t some discrete capitalist class controlling everything from the shadows, but that there’s a buyin from everyone. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23791 Posts
On December 13 2019 18:10 Nebuchad wrote: The left moving center-left is the reason why the far right is getting stronger. This has been happening everywhere for the last 40 years, and it's also pretty self-evident just logically speaking. Nettles understands this and this is why he wants the left to move back to the center. The same Nettles who frequently brings up people being fed up with the ‘Metropolitan elite’ Which were the exact same types who backed multiple leadership challenges to Corbyn and kept losing because Labour rank and file members and unions continually backed Corbyn. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23791 Posts
On December 13 2019 12:29 m4ini wrote: This. This is so obvious to anyone who isn't a hardcore corbynist. I was curious what people would blame, and of course they blame "the media". It's the theys again. It has nothing to do with Corbyn being an objectively awful politician, with no clear direction or energy. Nope: it's the theys. Those liars that made labour politicians like antisemitic shit on facebook. The Rabbi calling out Labour for not doing enough against anti-semitism? Tory-planted. Guaranteed. It's fascinating to me personally, since i really don't have a horse in this race (i don't vote), how bad selective perception has become with people who are for "something" by default. The media didn't just flak Corbyn (and might i add, rightfully so). They went to town on Boris too, portraying him as a coward (again, rightfully so) hiding in fridges and dodging interviews. And to be clear here, this result isn't surprising either. Someone who doesn't plant a flag in his garden or put stickers on his car and just looked objectively at the toxic shitshow that UK politics have become, could see this coming from miles away. Is he solely to blame for this monumental disaster? No, of course not. But to argue that it's "everyone else" that smeared Corbyn to the point where nobody liked him anymore is absolutely delusional. Like properly "you should get yourself checked" insane. I absolutely expect him to resign - and maybe, the next election, Labour can run as a party behind a leader instead of this fractured clusterfuck running behind a dude who's only in for himself. Old Labour (the "concept") needs to just die away. edit: Corbyn: I will not lead the party in any future general election campaign. Thank god, then there's only one thing to do now. Hope that Johnson and his stooges don't screw up the country beyond repair, and get to work in a few years. Corbyn has flaws, plenty of them. Some Corbynistas are myopic on this for sure, met plenty in my time, that said I don’t think those in these thread who lean left are like that. Still the media coverage during this campaign, especially the print media has been more blatantly biased than in any previous one I can recall and it’s not been particularly close either. And no I don’t think the Rabbi is a plant, just that the charges of Anti-Semitism have been given such inordinate attention for a sustained period of time, with a lack of such scrutiny elsewhere that I’m extremely skeptical. That said Corbyn could have handled it much better in a PR sense as well. | ||
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Banaora
Germany234 Posts
First you see the vote by demographics then in the slide after that the turnout. Only about 52% of people below 30 went to vote while 85%+ of people 65 and older voted. If you count the votes remain parties got 52% of the vote while leave parties 48% but thanks to the FPTP voting system the 48% got an absolute majority of seats in parliament. If you want to look at the bright side there is now the decision to leave the EU by January. Though a future relationship has still to be agreed upon. It will be a rough ride for everybody. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11926 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4517 Posts
On December 13 2019 20:25 Banaora wrote: https://twitter.com/Fabian_Gorke/status/1205395026282471424 First you see the vote by demographics then in the slide after that the turnout. Only about 52% of people below 30 went to vote while 85%+ of people 65 and older voted. If you count the votes remain parties got 52% of the vote while leave parties 48% but thanks to the FPTP voting system the 48% got an absolute majority of seats in parliament. If you want to look at the bright side there is now the decision to leave the EU by January. Though a future relationship has still to be agreed upon. It will be a rough ride for everybody. Labour was not a 'Remain party', so that % isn't correct. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 13 2019 20:25 Banaora wrote: + Show Spoiler + https://twitter.com/Fabian_Gorke/status/1205395026282471424 First you see the vote by demographics then in the slide after that the turnout. Only about 52% of people below 30 went to vote while 85%+ of people 65 and older voted. If you count the votes remain parties got 52% of the vote while leave parties 48% but thanks to the FPTP voting system the 48% got an absolute majority of seats in parliament. If you want to look at the bright side there is now the decision to leave the EU by January. Though a future relationship has still to be agreed upon. It will be a rough ride for everybody. Do you have the source of the last table with the turnout and vote by age? | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22207 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 13 2019 20:58 ahswtini wrote: i don't think demographic information is actually recorded with your vote? as in, there is no way to distinguish from a ballot paper the age or ethnicity of the voter? No, those informations are from pollsters of course | ||
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Banaora
Germany234 Posts
Look under Demographic vote tables -> vote by age And to Laurens, you are right that labour wasn't a remain party. Yet you know that they promised a second referendum. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 13 2019 21:08 Banaora wrote: I just looked it up. The table you refer to is from this Yougov poll: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/uk714vkjy3/MRP_Tables_2019_Election_Public_Release (5).pdf Look under Demographic vote tables -> vote by age Thank you! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23791 Posts
On December 13 2019 18:17 Nebuchad wrote: Doesn't contradict what I said in any way, and if the voters were yearning for the center left they could have voted for the lib dems who also did very bad. Mainland UK politics is now getting a taste of the frustration that us folk in Northern Ireland have, where there’s a single issue layer above policy stances and ideology. Only swap out national identity for leave/remain. It’s hard to ascertain what wing the populace are gravitating to with the Brexit issue hanging over everything. My best guess is there’s a big chunk of the country who for whatever reason think Brexit happening will solve whatever political grievances they have, so they’ll vote accordingly. It’s a transcendent issue above traditional voting patterns and leanings, so I’m curious as to what things would look like underneath it all. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23791 Posts
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