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On November 16 2019 00:15 Jockmcplop wrote:
This internet idea Labour have had is absolutely the worst thing they could have possibly done.
I might not vote Labour now.
In what way is it a bad idea? Apart form costing loads of cash and giving a stoopid communism attack angle to the torys?
I sincerely think that certain base services like the grids for water, gas, railways, roads, internet/communication and electricity should never solely be in the hands of privat companies and if so, thoroughly regulated and with a strict oversight.
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On November 16 2019 00:33 Artisreal wrote:
In what way is it a bad idea? Apart form costing loads of cash and giving a stoopid communism attack angle to the torys?
I sincerely think that certain base services like the grids for water, gas, railways, roads, internet/communication and electricity should never solely be in the hands of privat companies and if so, thoroughly regulated and with a strict oversight.
If you look at it as free internet then it looks like a great idea.
If you look at it as nationalized/government controlled internet then you might get an idea of where i'm coming from.
I don't think Corbyn would use that power wrongly, but I also don't trust ANY government with that much control over the internet.
I wholeheartedly agree with most of Corbyn's nationalization schemes. Not this though.
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I solely don’t like the idea of making it free at the point of use. Improving infastructure, services and part-nationalising I am on board with, especially for non-urban areas that frequently have terrible internet.
Making something that isn’t outrageously expensive (and could be price-controlled down the line) free just strikes me as both a waste of money and also just fuel to bash Corbyn, millennials and Labour with.
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I just think in the long term it will be incredibly destructive to individuals' freedom to use the internet.
In the short term it would probably change very little, but what happens if a far right government gets control, or a more authoritarian leftist government?
Its a bad idea. It'll make it easier for governments to do very bad things.
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The same arguments can be applied to basically anything the government controls either directly or via the purse strings.
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Thank you for explaining your thoughts.
I consider the angle regarding the surveillance aspect of the governmentally controlled internet as more important than the valuation aspect of it.
Free public transport is seen as a necessity in some visions of the future of transport. Doesn't make in less valuable or valued. Not sure how this stands as an argument for free internet though. I suppose a 10mbit line for free or a 100mbit paid sounds reasonable?
Insofar I don't like the style of election promise withough any details like renegotiating brexit or getting brexit done of this proposition, while, in fact, I like the idea in an of itself very much.
Returning to the argument about governmental surveillance.
Following that train of thought is very easy to me, especially with a tory government and the UK being out of the EU, i.e. I consider it foreseeable that you guys will be losing lots of consumer protection regulation.
Thus I see your point in that regard and would agree, that this could scare people. Although I'm sure just like with the judiciary, there's a way to limit the governmental influence on data collection or the access to data collected.
But frankly speaking, I'm not experienced enough in UK history to judge wheter such regulation would be installed or upheld.
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I’m sure there would be a way to keep the ISP side of things kept in some kind of third party control to create a level of distance between the data traffic of the citizenry and whatever government is in power.
Private industry does not exactly have a great record in this regard and has to be dragged kicking and screaming with every attempt to regulate what data is controlled and kept and how it can be used.
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The poll that predicted the 2017 election result has been released tonight attempting to predict this election result using the MRP model.
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Urgh the faint colours are so faint. Hurts my eyes just looking at it. Does this pollster do not hire proper artists?
Anyways, there's no point posting polls. We will know the result when the election is done.
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On November 28 2019 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Urgh the faint colours are so faint. Hurts my eyes just looking at it. Does this pollster do not hire proper artists?
Anyways, there's no point posting polls. We will know the result when the election is done.
We all know how the election is going to go, at least in terms of who is Prime Minister, don’t need polls for that.
People are going to elect the Tories and then sit whinging about all the things that are directly attributable to Tory policy.
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On November 28 2019 08:07 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Urgh the faint colours are so faint. Hurts my eyes just looking at it. Does this pollster do not hire proper artists?
Anyways, there's no point posting polls. We will know the result when the election is done. We all know how the election is going to go, at least in terms of who is Prime Minister, don’t need polls for that. People are going to elect the Tories and then sit whinging about all the things that are directly attributable to Tory policy.
Because they won't know it is directly attributable to Tory policy. Our media is horrendous on politics.The Guardian and The Mirror are pro-Labour but they have a combined circulation under 650,000. Meanwhile, The Mail, The Sun, The Express, and The Telegraph are pro-Tory and they have a combined circulation of over 3.3 million.
The BBC is scared of being criticised as biased towards Labour so they get pulled towards pro-Tory by the newspapers.
For example:
A chief rabbi talks about anti-semitism in Labour and it was front page news for the pro-Tory papers and became the lead story on the BBC.
The Muslim Council of Britain talks about Islamaphobia in the Tories and it got buried.
The newspapers also set the tone for the reaction to the manifestos. The reaction to Labour was all about increasing taxes, but the reaction to the Tories focused on where the money was going, such as extra nurses.
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On November 28 2019 18:07 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 08:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 28 2019 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Urgh the faint colours are so faint. Hurts my eyes just looking at it. Does this pollster do not hire proper artists?
Anyways, there's no point posting polls. We will know the result when the election is done. We all know how the election is going to go, at least in terms of who is Prime Minister, don’t need polls for that. People are going to elect the Tories and then sit whinging about all the things that are directly attributable to Tory policy. Because they won't know it is directly attributable to Tory policy. Our media is horrendous on politics.The Guardian and The Mirror are pro-Labour but they have a combined circulation under 650,000. Meanwhile, The Mail, The Sun, The Express, and The Telegraph are pro-Tory and they have a combined circulation of over 3.3 million. The BBC is scared of being criticised as biased towards Labour so they get pulled towards pro-Tory by the newspapers. For example: A chief rabbi talks about anti-semitism in Labour and it was front page news for the pro-Tory papers and became the lead story on the BBC. The Muslim Council of Britain talks about Islamaphobia in the Tories and it got buried. The newspapers also set the tone for the reaction to the manifestos. The reaction to Labour was all about increasing taxes, but the reaction to the Tories focused on where the money was going, such as extra nurses.
While I agree on how those things are slanted, absolutely, that said I find the media’s role in all this to be a tad overrated.
The Tory’s record on austerity and the NHS is plain to see, Boris’ personal record on lies on the topic is plain to see unless one has the memory of a goldfish.
People wanting their cake and eating it too is a part of the problem too and if it isn’t the media it’s ‘out of touch politicians’ who blame for the state of our politics is outsourced to.
People want the NHS maintained but don’t want to pay for it being a prime case in point.
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Or they don't actually want those nice people from Europe to come here and be nurses. Or doctors to be retained. It's a mystery really.
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On November 28 2019 22:39 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Or they don't actually want those nice people from Europe to come here and be nurses. Or doctors to be retained. It's a mystery really.
They don’t know what the fuck they want, or at least don’t want to countenance the idea that certain things have trade-offs, and don’t like to be told that this is the case because it’s ‘elitist’
You can tell discussing Brexit pre-referendum with folk have left me with permanent scars :p
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Did I ever tell you the story of my childhood friend? Him and his family supported brexit, but before that they were opposed to people wearing "I Support Our Junior Doctors" badge. Apparently because they are "being paid enough" and "we pay for them". This being a family of low income, uneducated people with a history of medical conditions, who constantly gripe about long waiting list for their various medical conditions of fainting, yet they seem to have no notion that there needs to be well trained humans that could gone and studied anything else and can now go anywhere in the world for their valuable training and skills. Strangely enough after that, I don't meet with them as often as I used to.
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On November 28 2019 18:47 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 18:07 Melliflue wrote:On November 28 2019 08:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 28 2019 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Urgh the faint colours are so faint. Hurts my eyes just looking at it. Does this pollster do not hire proper artists?
Anyways, there's no point posting polls. We will know the result when the election is done. We all know how the election is going to go, at least in terms of who is Prime Minister, don’t need polls for that. People are going to elect the Tories and then sit whinging about all the things that are directly attributable to Tory policy. Because they won't know it is directly attributable to Tory policy. Our media is horrendous on politics.The Guardian and The Mirror are pro-Labour but they have a combined circulation under 650,000. Meanwhile, The Mail, The Sun, The Express, and The Telegraph are pro-Tory and they have a combined circulation of over 3.3 million. The BBC is scared of being criticised as biased towards Labour so they get pulled towards pro-Tory by the newspapers. For example: A chief rabbi talks about anti-semitism in Labour and it was front page news for the pro-Tory papers and became the lead story on the BBC. The Muslim Council of Britain talks about Islamaphobia in the Tories and it got buried. The newspapers also set the tone for the reaction to the manifestos. The reaction to Labour was all about increasing taxes, but the reaction to the Tories focused on where the money was going, such as extra nurses. While I agree on how those things are slanted, absolutely, that said I find the media’s role in all this to be a tad overrated. The Tory’s record on austerity and the NHS is plain to see, Boris’ personal record on lies on the topic is plain to see unless one has the memory of a goldfish. People wanting their cake and eating it too is a part of the problem too and if it isn’t the media it’s ‘out of touch politicians’ who blame for the state of our politics is outsourced to. People want the NHS maintained but don’t want to pay for it being a prime case in point.
It is very difficult to know how much influential the media is because there is no control to compare to.
You say the Tory's record on the NHS is plain to see, as is Boris's personal record on lies, but why/how are they plain to see? How do you know the Tories' record on the NHS? For years some newspapers have been blaming the struggles of our public services on immigration.
I think there are many people who are not as well-informed about the state of the country as you are, because they are not getting information from similar sources as you. Their sources have been telling them for years that austerity was not the problem, but instead it was immigration. The story may have changed over the last year or two but it is one example of how mis-informed people can be.
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On November 28 2019 22:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Did I ever tell you the story of my childhood friend? Him and his family supported brexit, but before that they were opposed to people wearing "I Support Our Junior Doctors" badge. Apparently because they are "being paid enough" and "we pay for their them". This being a family of low income, uneducated people with a history of medical conditions, who constantly gripe about long waiting list for their various medical conditions of fainting, yet they seem to have no notion that there needs to be well trained humans that could gone and studied anything else and can now go anywhere in the world for their valuable training and skills. Strangely enough after that, I don't meet with them as often as I used to.
Had a similarly furious argument with a friend who gradually over time began regurgitating stuff about immigrants and how ‘SJWs are ruining everything’ and I pointed out that he’s not worked in 5 years and been a complete NEET for 3 years and I had no patience for some of these ridiculous rants.
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To be fair to them they are mostly employed. But it's just so bizarre to me that people who is definitely getting more out of the NHS than they are putting in can be so unsympathetic to the very people who they depend upon. Then again it's like Melliflue says, what is their source of information? How do they form their opinions? It's certainly not from newspapers as I have never seen them read anything other than the local newspaper.
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On November 29 2019 06:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
To be fair to them they are mostly employed. But it's just so bizarre to me that people who is definitely getting more out of the NHS than they are putting in can be so unsympathetic to the very people who they depend upon. Then again it's like Melliflue says, what is their source of information? How do they form their opinions? It's certainly not from newspapers as I have never seen them read anything other than the local newspaper.
Sometimes I do get baffled, not using one’s brain is part of the issue, of course bad information also doesn’t help.
Take the EU. I don’t think you have to know anything about it whatsoever to at least recognise that ‘Germany and the EU kick the UK around’ and ‘we can leave the EU and they’ll do what we want because we’re the UK’ are not really two positions you can simultaneously hold.
One can fill in quite a few gaps in information and you don’t need to be some great critical thinker or anything.
Granted I get my news almost solely from the great media aggregator that are the Team Liquid US and UK Politics threads so I have quite a few bloody gaps to fill in :p
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It's a core part of most of that group's identity that they work hard, provide for their families, pull their weight etc. You pay your taxes and, sure, you might get sick or lose your job for a while, and you'll probably retire on a government pension, but that's why you paid taxes.
Unfortunately, most people's taxes don't come close to covering the amount that they receive in pensions, services, healthcare, infrastructure etc, and that's not even taking into account the subsidies given to the rural cannery, abbatoir, coal mine just to keep its blue-collar workers in a job. It's very easy to underestimate the amount the government does for you because most of these things are so baked in now.
Backing a progressive economic agenda out of self-interest would require this group to realise how much support they need and vote for a government that gives them more, but doing so would pull the bottom card out of their construction of self-worth. It's easier to just share Facebook memes complaining about the elites.
There's also the separate problem that in most western democracies, all the economically progressive parties have social/cultural agendas that are extremely hostile to this group's values and religion. This is a different and complicated issue but one that's more serious than it looks.
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