EPTUK Politics Mega-thread - Page 534
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KwarK
United States44367 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5872 Posts
On June 11 2019 02:27 Zaros wrote: Brexit in itself doesn't bring anything except power to make our own decisions, if that is of no value to you and you don't wish to divert away from EU rules then Brexit and a No deal Brexit is not going to give you any benefit. I value the ability for the country to decide its own laws and taxes by itself but I also think we should diverge from EU rules, fishing, agriculture, taxes especially VAT. I think the EU is quite protectionist so would like to have free trade with more countries, I'm not an expert but I think a unilateral declaration of free trade is quite an interesting idea at least for the short term instead of signing deals which take time and might just end up in the same EU style lock. No deal isn't an ideal scenario and I think it is better to leave with a deal, but the only deal on offer gives us very few benefits of Brexit. It seems very unlikely for a significant renegotiation to happen so the only option left is to walk away. The EU issues directives. There is a lot of room for interpretation for individual countries. Those directives will affect your country whether you like it or not. Brexit means losing a seat at the negotiating table. Did you have other rules in mind or were fishing, agriculture and tax (primarily VAT) examples of those rules you want to diverge from? Are you aware of what portion of the UK's economy agriculture (fishing included) comprises? It's about 0.7%. The EU's two primary roles in terms of agriculture are maintaining reasonable quality standards and protecting the agricultural sectors of its members from outside competition. The latter is done for strategic reasons. You don't want to be dependent on others for food. As for fishing, the EU's additional role is to ensure sustainability by preventing overfishing. Which of these would you like to tinker with? Brexit means potentially lower food prices at the expense of lowering quality standards and less security. You are also trading lower food prices for making your industry less competitive and your financial sector potentially losing access to a big market. VAT is a primary source of tax income in most countries. Do you expect anything revolutionary in that regard? What about other taxes? How is the EU restraining your country? Can you be more specific? Have you not noticed how terrible your country has been at negotiating trade deals with other countries? Do you not realize that the UK's leverage in negotiations is significantly diminished by Brexit? And a unilateral declaration? How will you ensure that other countries reciprocate? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18453 Posts
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Dan HH
Romania9246 Posts
On June 15 2019 23:54 Acrofales wrote: Can someone explain what a unilateral declaration of free trade means? Does it mean Britain will drop all standards? So cheap Chinese toys that just happen to be toxic can flood the market? Or will they still have to comply with some standards, there just won't be any import tax? It still sounds like a way to wreck any vulnerable but valuable industry and especially agriculture that Britain has. You know that scene from The Office (US) where Michael goes "I declare bankruuuuptcyyyy"? It's kind of the same here, a declaration of free trade is a magical statement that changes your status and all commercial laws to maximum freedom™ overnight according to some libertarians. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom10006 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/15/kenneth-clarke-bring-down-no-deal-government If and when he enters No 10, Labour will almost certainly table a vote of no confidence in a Johnson government that tries to take the country out of the EU without a deal, against the majority will of MPs in parliament. Last Wednesday the Tory MP and former attorney general Dominic Grieve said he would be prepared to vote down any government if it tried to act in defiance of parliament’s will. In an emotional statement in the Commons he told MPs that “the only way of stopping that prime minister [implementing a no-deal Brexit] would be to bring down that prime minister’s government... I will not hesitate to do that ... Even if it means my resigning the whip and leaving the party.” Clarke told the Observer he, too, would feel bound to do the same and thinks other Conservatives could follow suit, though he does not know how many. Tory MPs bringing down a Tory government? Would that not elevate the political crisis to new levels? “Well, I mean, if there’s no other way ... then you’ve got to bring that government down,” Clarke said. “You can’t have somebody saying ‘I’m going to be a dictatorial president for a month or two and fix everything despite parliamentary disapproval. If ... some idiot was sailing onto a no-deal Brexit, I’d decide politics had finally gone mad and I was not going to support this.” | ||
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KwarK
United States44367 Posts
In terms of the level of revolt it's not abnormal. It's the same thing Robin Cook did over Iraq, for example. The only difference is that Blair had so many MPs that he could do what the fuck he liked. | ||
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KwarK
United States44367 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom10006 Posts
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KwarK
United States44367 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22648 Posts
On June 16 2019 13:02 Jockmcplop wrote: Nvm, I should wake up before I post...This interview with Kenneth Clarke shows just how crazy politics is right now. A senior tory threatening to bring down the government if Boris does what he says he's going to do??? Not normal. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/15/kenneth-clarke-bring-down-no-deal-government Yes its insane for Boris to propose to do something without majority support. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On June 15 2019 23:54 Acrofales wrote: Can someone explain what a unilateral declaration of free trade means? Does it mean Britain will drop all standards? So cheap Chinese toys that just happen to be toxic can flood the market? Or will they still have to comply with some standards, there just won't be any import tax? It still sounds like a way to wreck any vulnerable but valuable industry and especially agriculture that Britain has. It means removing all tariffs on goods coming into Britain from all Countries. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22648 Posts
On June 16 2019 22:28 Zaros wrote: So the UK market gets flooded by cheap goods and local industries die out.It means removing all tariffs on goods coming into Britain from all Countries. Sounds like a great idea. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
the UK is that magical fairyland where they have excess money to burn because deficits are just not happening. so why not subsidize the world by removing tariffs. a tactic also known as "The Reverse Trump". in case you want trade peace not war. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
You're literally economically illiterate. Here's a hint. What happens to british industries if they have to compete with slave labour countries, you can see in the steel industry. And this is by choice, the UK vetoed resolutions to tariff chinese steel. If you don't tariff items, you have to compete with labour prices and regulations in other countries. Try competing with a chinese steel worker who works for £300 a month, under shittier circumstances. And now do that for every industry in the UK. Let me know how that would work out. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 17 2019 02:43 m4ini wrote: And people wonder why Brexiters get made fun of. You're literally economically illiterate. Here's a hint. What happens to british industries if they have to compete with slave labour countries, you can see in the steel industry. And this is by choice, the UK vetoed resolutions to tariff chinese steel. If you don't tariff items, you have to compete with labour prices and regulations in other countries. Try competing with a chinese steel worker who works for £300 a month, under shittier circumstances. And now do that for every industry in the UK. Let me know how that would work out. We don't have industries really. Britain has been a service economy for about a decade now. The real cost of Brexit depends on how much our lost access to Europe affects the value of the services we can offer. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5872 Posts
On June 17 2019 08:13 iamthedave wrote: We don't have industries really. Britain has been a service economy for about a decade now. The real cost of Brexit depends on how much our lost access to Europe affects the value of the services we can offer. 19% of your GDP comes from the industry. The industry is also a major client of your services sector - finances, transportation, catering, etc. Your higher education system works closely with your industry, a lot of research output comes from industrial R&D projects. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
To conform to European safety standards drivers can only be on the road so much per day. So things like border checks count towards that and may necessitate having to stop for the day. Adding an extra day to the journey of the folks who actually move goods be they raw materials and for-market products can only up costs across the board. The head of the Irish haulier Union or whatever their title is was on a podcast I listen to was talking about this and how it pertains to Irish/British trade primarily, and why not having a hard border is important for that particular sector, never mind other political factors on the island. What was alarming to me isn’t so much that there isn’t a plan to mitigate this, more the government in the UK don’t seem to even recognise the potential problems, despite being told about it. It feels we’re years down the line and we haven’t even got close to dealing with nitty gritty practicalities | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
On June 17 2019 20:21 Wombat_NI wrote: There’s knock-ons in every sector, haulage is one for example. To conform to European safety standards drivers can only be on the road so much per day. So things like border checks count towards that and may necessitate having to stop for the day. Adding an extra day to the journey of the folks who actually move goods be they raw materials and for-market products can only up costs across the board. The head of the Irish haulier Union or whatever their title is was on a podcast I listen to was talking about this and how it pertains to Irish/British trade primarily, and why not having a hard border is important for that particular sector, never mind other political factors on the island. What was alarming to me isn’t so much that there isn’t a plan to mitigate this, more the government in the UK don’t seem to even recognise the potential problems, despite being told about it. It feels we’re years down the line and we haven’t even got close to dealing with nitty gritty practicalities doesn't matter, because Gerard Batten MEP seems to think only 100 lorries cross the Irish border everyday | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 17 2019 16:34 maybenexttime wrote: 19% of your GDP comes from the industry. The industry is also a major client of your services sector - finances, transportation, catering, etc. Your higher education system works closely with your industry, a lot of research output comes from industrial R&D projects. And services is 80%. They don't belong in the same discussion. | ||
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