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United States42861 Posts
On June 20 2019 04:19 Aristodemus wrote:
First of all, I didn't say I wished for a no deal, I want us to respect the referendum result which I would regardless of the result. It's the will of the people. I also never said the EU were the bad guys.
Jock, what is the point of leaving the EU if you sign a deal that binds you to their rules with no say in any of it? That is why I said we either stay or leave, there is no compromise that can work in my mind.
It’s the will of the people who voted leave. Not the will of all the people.
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On June 20 2019 03:23 Aristodemus wrote:
Rightly or wrongly, the EU have taken a punitive approach to negotiations for a variety of reasons. The main one is that allowing the UK to leave with a mutually beneficial deal would only encourage other nations to follow suit.
I myself feel only two options remain for the UK to take, revoke article 50 and remain or depart on WTO terms and see where that leads (and predicting exactly where is impossible). No deal the EU are or will offer is acceptable at this point and would only compromise the UK in the economic recovery that will be needed.
Whether you like it or not, I hope that we respect the outcome of the referendum and leave.
What part do you consider punitive?
Paying bills you said you would pay before deciding to leave?
Not fucking over North Ireland and breaking the Good Friday agreement?
The 4 freedoms were never negotiable. They have been non-negotiable since they were first implemented across the EU when leaving wasn't on anyone's mind.
What has the EU done that is 'punitive'?
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On June 20 2019 04:19 Aristodemus wrote:
First of all, I didn't say I wished for a no deal, I want us to respect the referendum result which I would regardless of the result. It's the will of the people. I also never said the EU were the bad guys.
Jock, what is the point of leaving the EU if you sign a deal that binds you to their rules with no say in any of it? That is why I said we either stay or leave, there is no compromise that can work in my mind.
I actually agree with this, but you have to accept that no deal will wreck our economy in multiple potentially catastrophic ways. The potential for some kind of economic domino effect happening makes it not worth the risk imo. That's the point I was making originally: you can't make a sensible economics argument for leaving with no deal, because there isn't one. Politically, yeah maybe.
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On June 20 2019 03:23 Aristodemus wrote:
Rightly or wrongly, the EU have taken a punitive approach to negotiations for a variety of reasons. The main one is that allowing the UK to leave with a mutually beneficial deal would only encourage other nations to follow suit.
I myself feel only two options remain for the UK to take, revoke article 50 and remain or depart on WTO terms and see where that leads (and predicting exactly where is impossible). No deal the EU are or will offer is acceptable at this point and would only compromise the UK in the economic recovery that will be needed.
Whether you like it or not, I hope that we respect the outcome of the referendum and leave.
What would constitute a mutually beneficial deal? The UK has not decided what kind of economic relationship it wants to pursue with the EU. The only thing that has been negotiated is how to deal with the legal limbo of severing all agreements. And the only major point of contention there is how to deal with the Irish border, which in the absence of that decision is putting the cart before the horse.
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On June 20 2019 06:31 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2019 03:23 Aristodemus wrote:
Rightly or wrongly, the EU have taken a punitive approach to negotiations for a variety of reasons. The main one is that allowing the UK to leave with a mutually beneficial deal would only encourage other nations to follow suit.
I myself feel only two options remain for the UK to take, revoke article 50 and remain or depart on WTO terms and see where that leads (and predicting exactly where is impossible). No deal the EU are or will offer is acceptable at this point and would only compromise the UK in the economic recovery that will be needed.
Whether you like it or not, I hope that we respect the outcome of the referendum and leave.
What would constitute a mutually beneficial deal? The UK has not decided what kind of economic relationship it wants to pursue with the EU. The only thing that has been negotiated is how to deal with the legal limbo of severing all agreements. And the only major point of contention there is how to deal with the Irish border, which in the absence of that decision is putting the cart before the horse.
This above is all right,
Further, with all this will of the people nonsense: The people, as a collective do not know what they want, those that are educated about issues want different things and broadly the electorate is uneducated.
There is no magical unicorn Brexit where everything that was promised will come true.
If it happens, the electorate is going to be all "shocked pikachu" in 5 years, lamenting the loss of all the shit that we threw on the death spasm of an empire.
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I never really understood " EU took punitive approach to the negotiations", or " EU is trying punish UK" thing. It is either
- a logical error which if you follow it will lead you to conclusion that in every negotiation, party with stronger position is taking "Punitive approach"
- spoiled kid attitude where you either get everything you want and few things on top, or you are being unfairly punished
Frankly: don't like your negotiating partner approach, stop negotiating with them.
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Northern Ireland25522 Posts
Furthermore if you campaign and say the EU isn’t doing what us Brits want when we’re in the club, but will do what we want when we’re out of it, for some reason.
The only way that plays out is if the EU is like a complacent partner, spurned into action when they get dumped.
I’m not 100% wedded to the EU, there are definitely aspects I dislike even though I’m broadly in the remain camp, I could stomach an alternative reality where we left, but had an actual plan, people knew what that entailed broadly, and the majority of people wanted to still leave.
As it stands this is definitely the period that shattered what small faith I did have in our political and media class, I imagine there are plenty in my boat.
We can’t have a second referendum, apparently, we can’t get a plan together, we can’t negotiate, internal party jostling is making those previous 2 basically impossible etc
Added to that Brexit massively overshadows regular political issues so they don’t even get sufficient attention, so an inert shitshow stops other things being done as well.
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On June 20 2019 04:44 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2019 04:19 Aristodemus wrote:
First of all, I didn't say I wished for a no deal, I want us to respect the referendum result which I would regardless of the result. It's the will of the people. I also never said the EU were the bad guys.
Jock, what is the point of leaving the EU if you sign a deal that binds you to their rules with no say in any of it? That is why I said we either stay or leave, there is no compromise that can work in my mind. I actually agree with this, but you have to accept that no deal will wreck our economy in multiple potentially catastrophic ways. The potential for some kind of economic domino effect happening makes it not worth the risk imo. That's the point I was making originally: you can't make a sensible economics argument for leaving with no deal, because there isn't one. Politically, yeah maybe.
I agree with you also in that, I said I think we have two choices from here and I didn't advocate either of them. My belief is that we need to respect the vote that took place, I don't see that as a political point of view and if Scotland had voted to leave the UK in their indyref I would feel exactly the same.
No deal is going to be damaging to both the UK and EU and none of us know exactly how it would play out.
As for the other comments made... The will of the people is what the majority voted for, I never said it was the will of every voter. That would be virtually impossible in any fair voting system. In any negotiation both parties will have an agenda and goals they want, the EU are trying to achieve the best possible outcome for them and there is nothing wrong with that.
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United States42861 Posts
It’s not the will of the people. It is tangentially related to something roughly half of the subset of the people who voted said they were interested in exploring. The referendum results were first N/A from the non voters, then remain and leave tied in joint 3rd. But even if leave had a majority of the people that doesn’t mean they want this Brexit. No specific exit deal can claim to be supported by that referendum.
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On June 21 2019 07:08 KwarK wrote:
It’s not the will of the people. It is tangentially related to something roughly half of the subset of the people who voted said they were interested in exploring. The referendum results were N/A from the non voters, then remain and leave tied in joint 3rd. But even if leave had a majority of the people that doesn’t mean they want this Brexit. No specific exit deal can claim to be supported by that referendum.
We're literally at the point of arguing that because we put a bullet in the gun we MUST shoot ourselves. There is no possible way the bullet can be removed.
Madness.
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Northern Ireland25522 Posts
On June 21 2019 10:16 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2019 07:08 KwarK wrote:
It’s not the will of the people. It is tangentially related to something roughly half of the subset of the people who voted said they were interested in exploring. The referendum results were N/A from the non voters, then remain and leave tied in joint 3rd. But even if leave had a majority of the people that doesn’t mean they want this Brexit. No specific exit deal can claim to be supported by that referendum. We're literally at the point of arguing that because we put a bullet in the gun we MUST shoot ourselves. There is no possible way the bullet can be removed. Madness.
‘Sir you expressed a desire for suicide 4 years ago, we’re here to shoot you now.’
‘Erm actually...’
‘Sorry sir we have it written here that this is what you want, don’t you respect the will of the people?’
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For me the most bizarre thing is that the UK started the exit process before they had any sort of plan on how to deal with it. Negotiating a deal with the EU while the clock is ticking is like changing tires on a moving car, of course it'll crash and burn horribly.
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On June 21 2019 16:17 PoulsenB wrote:
For me the most bizarre thing is that the UK started the exit process before they had any sort of plan on how to deal with it. Negotiating a deal with the EU while the clock is ticking is like changing tires on a moving car, of course it'll crash and burn horribly. The EU wasn't going to negotiate anything before article 50.
You would get every remotely sceptical country trying to negotiate an exit and pulling out if they don't like the deal. The EU would spend the rest of its existence negotiating leave agreements.
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An interesting interview on Radio Scotland where "Gary Robertson tries to get straight answers from two Scottish Conservative MPs, Colin Clark and Alberto Costa, about the Tory leadership race and the frustration caused by Brexit."
I listened to it live and it's rather representative for the whole Brexit process in my opinion. Funny also, if only for the last lines by Mr. Robertson:
“When it comes to frustration you should try my job” [getting a straight answer to anything related to Brexit out of Conservatives]
They do not have a plan.
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On June 21 2019 18:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2019 16:17 PoulsenB wrote:
For me the most bizarre thing is that the UK started the exit process before they had any sort of plan on how to deal with it. Negotiating a deal with the EU while the clock is ticking is like changing tires on a moving car, of course it'll crash and burn horribly. The EU wasn't going to negotiate anything before article 50. You would get every remotely sceptical country trying to negotiate an exit and pulling out if they don't like the deal. The EU would spend the rest of its existence negotiating leave agreements.
One thing is to start negotiations with the EU, another is to decide on your own on which grounds you want to negotiate on. It's quite stupid to start the exit process without having the faintest idea on what your own goals are and how you want to achieve them.
And even further, the EU has followed its own guidelines from the get go. You didn't need to start negotiations with EU to know what they would say, because that had been made clear beforehand.
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On June 21 2019 20:02 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2019 18:12 Gorsameth wrote:On June 21 2019 16:17 PoulsenB wrote:
For me the most bizarre thing is that the UK started the exit process before they had any sort of plan on how to deal with it. Negotiating a deal with the EU while the clock is ticking is like changing tires on a moving car, of course it'll crash and burn horribly. The EU wasn't going to negotiate anything before article 50. You would get every remotely sceptical country trying to negotiate an exit and pulling out if they don't like the deal. The EU would spend the rest of its existence negotiating leave agreements. One thing is to start negotiations with the EU, another is to decide on your own on which grounds you want to negotiate on. It's quite stupid to start the exit process without having the faintest idea on what your own goals are and how you want to achieve them. And even further, the EU has followed its own guidelines from the get go. You didn't need to start negotiations with EU to know what they would say, because that had been made clear beforehand. I completely agree but I don't think it would have changed anything.
We can see it even now, their are factions that believe they can promise the impossible and I believe they know what they say is impossible but they are happy with a no-deal brexit and blaming someone else for the inevitable fallout.
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On June 21 2019 20:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2019 20:02 Excludos wrote:On June 21 2019 18:12 Gorsameth wrote:On June 21 2019 16:17 PoulsenB wrote:
For me the most bizarre thing is that the UK started the exit process before they had any sort of plan on how to deal with it. Negotiating a deal with the EU while the clock is ticking is like changing tires on a moving car, of course it'll crash and burn horribly. The EU wasn't going to negotiate anything before article 50. You would get every remotely sceptical country trying to negotiate an exit and pulling out if they don't like the deal. The EU would spend the rest of its existence negotiating leave agreements. One thing is to start negotiations with the EU, another is to decide on your own on which grounds you want to negotiate on. It's quite stupid to start the exit process without having the faintest idea on what your own goals are and how you want to achieve them. And even further, the EU has followed its own guidelines from the get go. You didn't need to start negotiations with EU to know what they would say, because that had been made clear beforehand. I completely agree but I don't think it would have changed anything. We can see it even now, their are factions that believe they can promise the impossible and I believe they know what they say is impossible but they are happy with a no-deal brexit and blaming someone else for the inevitable fallout.
The trick seems to be to have enough power that you can block anything from happening, but not enough power that people believe that you are in charge and blame you afterwards.
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Lets hope Hunt makes it,he seems to be the by far most sensible of the two. But hes far behind apearently. The election for new tory leader you can sort of see as a second referendum maybe. If boris makes it then at least the tory members would not mind a hard brexit. Its kinda funny,the fate of brexit now seems to be in the hands of the torry members. (180k people total I read somewhere).
Could people still become torry member now and vote in the election? Or is it that you have had to be member for several months or more already.
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United States42861 Posts
Boris can’t pass anything. The only problem is the potential for damage through incompetence, which Boris puts through the roof.
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EPT
