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On June 07 2019 18:50 Jockmcplop wrote:
I know you can't draw conclusions from just one result but do you guys think there's truth in what Labour are saying? By that I mean that they should be focusing on things other than Brexit and that they can win an election as the anti-austerity party regardless of Brexit...
Its an interesting idea but its something I would have rejected out of hand before this by-election result. They won this by campaigning on local issues and anti-austerity issues.
Fuck no. it's delusional. Our country's gone insane and obsessive and only cares about Brexit.
Talking about issues other than Brexit makes sense in a sane country but everyone's panicking about Brexit and all they care about is delivering Brexit. The RIGHT thing to do is focus on what comes after, but the public won't allow it. Labour'll get annihilated if it avoids Brexit, because everyone will just hammer them on not addressing it.
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Northern Ireland26771 Posts
On June 08 2019 09:21 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 18:50 Jockmcplop wrote:
I know you can't draw conclusions from just one result but do you guys think there's truth in what Labour are saying? By that I mean that they should be focusing on things other than Brexit and that they can win an election as the anti-austerity party regardless of Brexit...
Its an interesting idea but its something I would have rejected out of hand before this by-election result. They won this by campaigning on local issues and anti-austerity issues.
Fuck no. it's delusional. Our country's gone insane and obsessive and only cares about Brexit. Talking about issues other than Brexit makes sense in a sane country but everyone's panicking about Brexit and all they care about is delivering Brexit. The RIGHT thing to do is focus on what comes after, but the public won't allow it. Labour'll get annihilated if it avoids Brexit, because everyone will just hammer them on not addressing it.
How long is the public going to tolerate a complete fiasco in terms of Brexit as it’s occurring now, but also the real impactful downsides of austerity and other bad governance? Indefinitely?
I have no idea, I’m largely sick of following this shitshow (and tbh I don’t really anymore), and I’m a longtime politics nerd.
We have a bad idea (imo) in Brexit, that can’t even be competently delivered that is so all-consuming that it stops any discussion of actual pertinent issues that affect people in the day to day, or potential alternatives.
I don’t know how you cut through that. I’d be personally happy if Labour just left the Tories et al to deal with the mess and pushed a policy platform, but I imagine many would not.
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I don't think you can have any meaningful policy platform without a stance on Brexit. Because article 50 is triggered, ignoring Brexit now will just lead to a no deal scenario.
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On June 08 2019 21:54 Sr18 wrote:
I don't think you can have any meaningful policy platform without a stance on Brexit. Because article 50 is triggered, ignoring Brexit now will just lead to a no deal scenario. You can have a position without focusing on it.
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On June 08 2019 22:36 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2019 21:54 Sr18 wrote:
I don't think you can have any meaningful policy platform without a stance on Brexit. Because article 50 is triggered, ignoring Brexit now will just lead to a no deal scenario. You can have a position without focusing on it.
Sorta. If you get voted in, then you need to do something about Brexit. And it appears that the government is paralyzed on all other matters than Brexit. So you might be able to campaign on other stuff, but you can't deliver on other stuff while Brexit is happening.
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On June 08 2019 10:09 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2019 09:21 iamthedave wrote:On June 07 2019 18:50 Jockmcplop wrote:
I know you can't draw conclusions from just one result but do you guys think there's truth in what Labour are saying? By that I mean that they should be focusing on things other than Brexit and that they can win an election as the anti-austerity party regardless of Brexit...
Its an interesting idea but its something I would have rejected out of hand before this by-election result. They won this by campaigning on local issues and anti-austerity issues.
Fuck no. it's delusional. Our country's gone insane and obsessive and only cares about Brexit. Talking about issues other than Brexit makes sense in a sane country but everyone's panicking about Brexit and all they care about is delivering Brexit. The RIGHT thing to do is focus on what comes after, but the public won't allow it. Labour'll get annihilated if it avoids Brexit, because everyone will just hammer them on not addressing it. How long is the public going to tolerate a complete fiasco in terms of Brexit as it’s occurring now, but also the real impactful downsides of austerity and other bad governance? Indefinitely? I have no idea, I’m largely sick of following this shitshow (and tbh I don’t really anymore), and I’m a longtime politics nerd. We have a bad idea (imo) in Brexit, that can’t even be competently delivered that is so all-consuming that it stops any discussion of actual pertinent issues that affect people in the day to day, or potential alternatives. I don’t know how you cut through that. I’d be personally happy if Labour just left the Tories et al to deal with the mess and pushed a policy platform, but I imagine many would not.
The public is still largely operating on lies, remember. There are large swathes of the British voting public who still think we can get the perfect deal where we get everything we want if only the right people are in the negotiations, because the people they trusted when voting for Brexit lied out the ass and claimed that they could achieve that exact thing and have spent years throwing tomatoes and rubbishing May's attempts without actually contributing a single meaningful thing to the discussion.
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Think if its a bit of a joke there is so much pressure on Gove at the moment over this cocaine issue, every other major candidate has done the same thing. Hope he can fight through it and I suspect he will, as it is likely to be a long contest.
I'd probably prefer to leave on no deal given the current situation but Gove's approach has been much more sensible on brexit than the other candidates and his policy announcements have been quite interesting and radical, free citizenship for EU citizens and scrapping VAT.
Compare that to the air balloon Hunt and Boris wanting to give a tax cut to people earning 40k+ as a first priority.
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I don't get to interact with Brexiters too often. Zoros, could you explain what tangible benefits Brexit is supposed to bring to the UK, especially a no deal scenario? I still can't wrap my head around it.
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On June 10 2019 16:51 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't get to interact with Brexiters too often. Zoros, could you explain what tangible benefits Brexit is supposed to bring to the UK, especially a no deal scenario? I still can't wrap my head around it.
Brexit in itself doesn't bring anything except power to make our own decisions, if that is of no value to you and you don't wish to divert away from EU rules then Brexit and a No deal Brexit is not going to give you any benefit.
I value the ability for the country to decide its own laws and taxes by itself but I also think we should diverge from EU rules, fishing, agriculture, taxes especially VAT.
I think the EU is quite protectionist so would like to have free trade with more countries, I'm not an expert but I think a unilateral declaration of free trade is quite an interesting idea at least for the short term instead of signing deals which take time and might just end up in the same EU style lock.
No deal isn't an ideal scenario and I think it is better to leave with a deal, but the only deal on offer gives us very few benefits of Brexit. It seems very unlikely for a significant renegotiation to happen so the only option left is to walk away.
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On June 11 2019 02:27 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2019 16:51 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't get to interact with Brexiters too often. Zoros, could you explain what tangible benefits Brexit is supposed to bring to the UK, especially a no deal scenario? I still can't wrap my head around it. Brexit in itself doesn't bring anything except power to make our own decisions, if that is of no value to you and you don't wish to divert away from EU rules then Brexit and a No deal Brexit is not going to give you any benefit. I value the ability for the country to decide its own laws and taxes by itself but I also think we should diverge from EU rules, fishing, agriculture, taxes especially VAT. I think the EU is quite protectionist so would like to have free trade with more countries, I'm not an expert but I think a unilateral declaration of free trade is quite an interesting idea at least for the short term instead of signing deals which take time and might just end up in the same EU style lock. No deal isn't an ideal scenario and I think it is better to leave with a deal, but the only deal on offer gives us very few benefits of Brexit. It seems very unlikely for a significant renegotiation to happen so the only option left is to walk away.
As an outsider, what decisions will you get to make now that you did not get to make before? Won't you still be bound by the EU if you want to participate in anything they do?
Like you can't trade with the EU if you dont meat their regulations standards, so you can't really lower yours.
I suppose you can deny entry to EU citizens easier now.
Can you share what you think you now have more control over?
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On June 11 2019 02:52 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 02:27 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2019 16:51 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't get to interact with Brexiters too often. Zoros, could you explain what tangible benefits Brexit is supposed to bring to the UK, especially a no deal scenario? I still can't wrap my head around it. Brexit in itself doesn't bring anything except power to make our own decisions, if that is of no value to you and you don't wish to divert away from EU rules then Brexit and a No deal Brexit is not going to give you any benefit. I value the ability for the country to decide its own laws and taxes by itself but I also think we should diverge from EU rules, fishing, agriculture, taxes especially VAT. I think the EU is quite protectionist so would like to have free trade with more countries, I'm not an expert but I think a unilateral declaration of free trade is quite an interesting idea at least for the short term instead of signing deals which take time and might just end up in the same EU style lock. No deal isn't an ideal scenario and I think it is better to leave with a deal, but the only deal on offer gives us very few benefits of Brexit. It seems very unlikely for a significant renegotiation to happen so the only option left is to walk away. As an outsider, what decisions will you get to make now that you did not get to make before? Won't you still be bound by the EU if you want to participate in anything they do? Like you can't trade with the EU if you dont meat their regulations standards, so you can't really lower yours. I suppose you can deny entry to EU citizens easier now. Can you share what you think you now have more control over?
Only our exporters have to meet EU standards, our domestic productions can be completely different while at the moment it has to meet EU standard. There various tax laws that we cant change in the EU, im not that interested in immigration but its important that the levels have public support and since we said we are leaving and have control again public attitudes are much more positive.
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On June 11 2019 03:09 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 02:52 IyMoon wrote:On June 11 2019 02:27 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2019 16:51 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't get to interact with Brexiters too often. Zoros, could you explain what tangible benefits Brexit is supposed to bring to the UK, especially a no deal scenario? I still can't wrap my head around it. Brexit in itself doesn't bring anything except power to make our own decisions, if that is of no value to you and you don't wish to divert away from EU rules then Brexit and a No deal Brexit is not going to give you any benefit. I value the ability for the country to decide its own laws and taxes by itself but I also think we should diverge from EU rules, fishing, agriculture, taxes especially VAT. I think the EU is quite protectionist so would like to have free trade with more countries, I'm not an expert but I think a unilateral declaration of free trade is quite an interesting idea at least for the short term instead of signing deals which take time and might just end up in the same EU style lock. No deal isn't an ideal scenario and I think it is better to leave with a deal, but the only deal on offer gives us very few benefits of Brexit. It seems very unlikely for a significant renegotiation to happen so the only option left is to walk away. As an outsider, what decisions will you get to make now that you did not get to make before? Won't you still be bound by the EU if you want to participate in anything they do? Like you can't trade with the EU if you dont meat their regulations standards, so you can't really lower yours. I suppose you can deny entry to EU citizens easier now. Can you share what you think you now have more control over? since we said we are leaving and have control again public attitudes are much more positive. Citation needed.
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United States43977 Posts
Surely the companies doing the importing will also be building to EU standards, assuming they’re more stringent, because it’s far more costly to build two versions than to build one uniformly conforming version.
If British standards are lower we’ll just get the EU edition. If they’re higher we’ll pay a price premium for forcing the market to make a GB edition for us alone. And I doubt that our market is big enough for that. It’s like how most EU car manufacturers willingly don’t build for the US market because it’s too expensive to build a US edition. But GB is smaller than US.
Standards convergence is necessary for free trade. Leaving a standards union for free trade is counterproductive.
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On June 11 2019 03:15 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 03:09 Zaros wrote:On June 11 2019 02:52 IyMoon wrote:On June 11 2019 02:27 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2019 16:51 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't get to interact with Brexiters too often. Zoros, could you explain what tangible benefits Brexit is supposed to bring to the UK, especially a no deal scenario? I still can't wrap my head around it. Brexit in itself doesn't bring anything except power to make our own decisions, if that is of no value to you and you don't wish to divert away from EU rules then Brexit and a No deal Brexit is not going to give you any benefit. I value the ability for the country to decide its own laws and taxes by itself but I also think we should diverge from EU rules, fishing, agriculture, taxes especially VAT. I think the EU is quite protectionist so would like to have free trade with more countries, I'm not an expert but I think a unilateral declaration of free trade is quite an interesting idea at least for the short term instead of signing deals which take time and might just end up in the same EU style lock. No deal isn't an ideal scenario and I think it is better to leave with a deal, but the only deal on offer gives us very few benefits of Brexit. It seems very unlikely for a significant renegotiation to happen so the only option left is to walk away. As an outsider, what decisions will you get to make now that you did not get to make before? Won't you still be bound by the EU if you want to participate in anything they do? Like you can't trade with the EU if you dont meat their regulations standards, so you can't really lower yours. I suppose you can deny entry to EU citizens easier now. Can you share what you think you now have more control over? since we said we are leaving and have control again public attitudes are much more positive. Citation needed.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/
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On June 11 2019 03:18 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 03:15 Gorsameth wrote:On June 11 2019 03:09 Zaros wrote:On June 11 2019 02:52 IyMoon wrote:On June 11 2019 02:27 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2019 16:51 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't get to interact with Brexiters too often. Zoros, could you explain what tangible benefits Brexit is supposed to bring to the UK, especially a no deal scenario? I still can't wrap my head around it. Brexit in itself doesn't bring anything except power to make our own decisions, if that is of no value to you and you don't wish to divert away from EU rules then Brexit and a No deal Brexit is not going to give you any benefit. I value the ability for the country to decide its own laws and taxes by itself but I also think we should diverge from EU rules, fishing, agriculture, taxes especially VAT. I think the EU is quite protectionist so would like to have free trade with more countries, I'm not an expert but I think a unilateral declaration of free trade is quite an interesting idea at least for the short term instead of signing deals which take time and might just end up in the same EU style lock. No deal isn't an ideal scenario and I think it is better to leave with a deal, but the only deal on offer gives us very few benefits of Brexit. It seems very unlikely for a significant renegotiation to happen so the only option left is to walk away. As an outsider, what decisions will you get to make now that you did not get to make before? Won't you still be bound by the EU if you want to participate in anything they do? Like you can't trade with the EU if you dont meat their regulations standards, so you can't really lower yours. I suppose you can deny entry to EU citizens easier now. Can you share what you think you now have more control over? since we said we are leaving and have control again public attitudes are much more positive. Citation needed. https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/ ah ok, specifically to immigration. Yeah I can see that.
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Norway28796 Posts
On June 11 2019 03:18 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 03:15 Gorsameth wrote:On June 11 2019 03:09 Zaros wrote:On June 11 2019 02:52 IyMoon wrote:On June 11 2019 02:27 Zaros wrote:On June 10 2019 16:51 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't get to interact with Brexiters too often. Zoros, could you explain what tangible benefits Brexit is supposed to bring to the UK, especially a no deal scenario? I still can't wrap my head around it. Brexit in itself doesn't bring anything except power to make our own decisions, if that is of no value to you and you don't wish to divert away from EU rules then Brexit and a No deal Brexit is not going to give you any benefit. I value the ability for the country to decide its own laws and taxes by itself but I also think we should diverge from EU rules, fishing, agriculture, taxes especially VAT. I think the EU is quite protectionist so would like to have free trade with more countries, I'm not an expert but I think a unilateral declaration of free trade is quite an interesting idea at least for the short term instead of signing deals which take time and might just end up in the same EU style lock. No deal isn't an ideal scenario and I think it is better to leave with a deal, but the only deal on offer gives us very few benefits of Brexit. It seems very unlikely for a significant renegotiation to happen so the only option left is to walk away. As an outsider, what decisions will you get to make now that you did not get to make before? Won't you still be bound by the EU if you want to participate in anything they do? Like you can't trade with the EU if you dont meat their regulations standards, so you can't really lower yours. I suppose you can deny entry to EU citizens easier now. Can you share what you think you now have more control over? since we said we are leaving and have control again public attitudes are much more positive. Citation needed. https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/
Reading through quite a bit of that, I can see that attitudes are somewhat more positive and that immigration has become a less salient issue for British people (not surprisingly, the number one spot has been overtaken by brexit). However I cannot see any reason given (for example we are leaving and have control thus public attitudes are more positive). I mean, I didn't read everything, so if there is a quote giving that specific reason, your statement is good, but otherwise there are multiple possible reasons for why attitudes might be more positive now; the Syrian refugee crisis caused numbers to soar in a way that many respondents from many countries found a bit intimidating - time passing and numbers dropping by itself makes it a smaller issue. Secondly you haven't had time to worry about immigration lately because brexit is dominating everything. Thirdly fewer people want to come to the UK because brexit makes everything uncertain or difficult. (The Norwegian minister for science and higher education specifically discouraged students from doing exchange programs in the UK until brexit is resolved - and England has traditionally been just about the most popular country for Norwegians to do exchange programs in. )
Edit: Looking through more; this is a direct quote: It is difficult to draw firm conclusions about the reasons for the changing attitudes. However, we might suppose that both sides had cause to change their views. Factors that may have played a role include the decline in net migration, which received news coverage; or the possibility that Remain voters shifted their views to be more congruent with their political position on the EU.
We can also see that remain voters became more positive towards the cultural enrichment aspect of immigration (leave voters didn't change), and both voter groups have seen an increase in how positively they feel immigrants contribute to the economy, and both voter groups have more people thinking they should allow more workers to come from the EU.
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This whole uproar over LGBT issues being taught at a primary school in Birmingham has been interesting.
BBC is now reporting a high court judge labelling the anti-LGBT protests as ‘probably harrassment’
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-birmingham-48580310
Protests against the teaching of LGBT relationships probably "strayed into harassing, alarming and distressing conduct", a High Court judge said.
The protests have been taking place for weeks, with parents saying they are concerned the lessons are not "age appropriate" and they contradict Islam.
The original High Court injunction had been in place since 31 May , banning demos outside the school, which had to close early before half-term due to escalating action.
Now if you go back to this youtube video from three weeks ago with Labour MP Jess Phillips confronting the protesters you will see this clip of an organiser (1:01) “The behaviour of the school and towards the parents is coming across as Islamophobic”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy9FAko75hE
The left now being called Islamophobic due to their stance on LGBT rights.We’ve truly come full circle.What do they do now and who ‘wins’ this?
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On June 12 2019 20:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:This whole uproar over LGBT issues being taught at a primary school in Birmingham has been interesting. BBC is now reporting a high court judge labelling the anti-LGBT protests as ‘probably harrassment’ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-birmingham-48580310Show nested quote +Protests against the teaching of LGBT relationships probably "strayed into harassing, alarming and distressing conduct", a High Court judge said.
The protests have been taking place for weeks, with parents saying they are concerned the lessons are not "age appropriate" and they contradict Islam.
The original High Court injunction had been in place since 31 May , banning demos outside the school, which had to close early before half-term due to escalating action. Now if you go back to this youtube video from three weeks ago with Labour MP Jess Phillips confronting the protesters you will see this clip of an organiser (1:01) “The behaviour of the school and towards the parents is coming across as Islamophobic” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy9FAko75hEThe left now being called Islamophobic due to their stance on LGBT rights.We’ve truly come full circle.What do they do now and who ‘wins’ this?
People ask questions and work on answering them.
The thing is, you seem to have a very bad misconception about the left as a whole, probably from only reading right wing media.
We don't all have to conform to some hierarchy of oppression. It doesn't work like that. Muslims are like anyone else and should be treated like anyone else. If some of them are conservative to the point of protesting about LGBT rights outside a primary school then they are doing something bad that needs to be stopped, regardless of who they are or what their religion is.
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On June 12 2019 20:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:This whole uproar over LGBT issues being taught at a primary school in Birmingham has been interesting. BBC is now reporting a high court judge labelling the anti-LGBT protests as ‘probably harrassment’ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-birmingham-48580310Show nested quote +Protests against the teaching of LGBT relationships probably "strayed into harassing, alarming and distressing conduct", a High Court judge said.
The protests have been taking place for weeks, with parents saying they are concerned the lessons are not "age appropriate" and they contradict Islam.
The original High Court injunction had been in place since 31 May , banning demos outside the school, which had to close early before half-term due to escalating action. Now if you go back to this youtube video from three weeks ago with Labour MP Jess Phillips confronting the protesters you will see this clip of an organiser (1:01) “The behaviour of the school and towards the parents is coming across as Islamophobic” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy9FAko75hEThe left now being called Islamophobic due to their stance on LGBT rights.We’ve truly come full circle.What do they do now and who ‘wins’ this? I love how (US) Republicans think they somehow found a contradiction that will cause the 'left' brain to crash because all they know are right wing media statements and have no concept of the actual idea's behind them.
The 'left' believes in actual freedom of religion that applies to more then just Christianity.
One persons freedom ends where another persons rights begin (in general).
So people should be free to practise Islamic beliefs so long as they don't infringe on other peoples rights, in this case the rights of LGBT's.
There is no irrational fear of Muslims here, just the belief that everyone has the same rights.
There is nothing wrong with teaching primary school children about LGBT relationships because they are going to see same sex couples walk along the street and wonder why those 2 men/women are holding hands or kissing.
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Had the first round of votes today, Boris way ahead but Gove managed to rally after a week of bad press and is very close to that 2nd place spot. Hancock is expected to pull out of the race tomorrow.
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EPT
