|
In order to ensure that this thread meets TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we ask that everyone please adhere to this mod note. Posts containing only Tweets or articles adds nothing to the discussions. Therefore, when providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments will be actioned upon. All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting. https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk |
On May 27 2019 13:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2019 13:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On May 27 2019 13:03 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2019 12:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On May 24 2019 07:48 Zaros wrote:
Dan Hannan thinks Cons will get 0 MEPs
Hannan actually retained his seat. Wins all round tonight. As for why greens wouldn't vote LibDem, why would they? Green is pro EU. They literally ran/campaigned on that, unambiguously. To avoid vote splitting. You realise if all Change UK voters had voted Lib Dem then Lib Dems would have won more seats.If all greens voters had voted Lib Dem as well they'd have won more again.But of course not all green voters would have voted Lib Dem.So we're going around in circles here.I'm sure we can all agree that Change UK was a total waste of time though. EU elections use the regional list PR system, not FPTP. North-East England results. Change UK cost Lib Dems a seat there. Brexit 38.7 Labour 19.4 Lib Dem 16.8 Change UK 4 Tactical voting in PR systems isn't really a thing. I suspect you didn't know the EU election wasn't FPTP.
I was aware, plus the Guardian had an article less than a week ago titled 'European elections: tactical voting and strategic thinking for remainers'.So in my opinion, it was a thing this election.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/20/european-elections-tactical-voting-and-strategic-thinking-for-remainers
|
My last post here for now comes from an article courtesy of the Communist Party of Britain, who backed The Brexit Party in the EU referendum.
It's great at shattering perceptions put across by the biased mainstream media.
What does the Labour party actually stand for these days?
http://www.cpgb-ml.org/2019/05/07/news/galloway-farage-brexit-party-eu-election/
The opportunity for workers to gain an increased understanding of the true nature of Britain’s parliament, which in reality is a hollow talking-shop concealing the iron fist of the state apparatus and the dictatorial rule of the wealthy ruling-class elite, is clear.
So much so, that the issue of Brexit – despite the triumphalist broadcasting of large anti-Brexit marches and online petitions – far from going quietly away, looks set to upset the applecart of bourgeois politics in a fairly extreme way.
Choosing to ‘stand with’ the EU imperialists (imperialist ‘internationalism’) or to ‘stand with’ the British imperialists (imperialist ‘nationalism’): is that the essence of Brexit?
No. Brexit, as the CPGB-ML has emphasised since the beginning of the debate leading up to the referendum (in which 17.4 million voted to leave the EU, as opposed to 16.1 million who voted to remain), hurts European, British and US imperialism alike.
The harder the Brexit, the more the imperialists will be set back. Yes, some privileged workers will find that their privileges come under threat from this outcome, but that’s the way the winds of capitalist economic crisis are blowing in any case.
It is the very essence of capitalist economy to rob the workers. It is the failure of the capitalists to be able to provide employment and decent living standards for workers even in the heartlands of imperialism (US, Britain and the EU – and Greece is the country we should examine when people talk of the EU being some kind of workers’ paradise) that is smashing the EU project. Not Farage. Not ‘racism’.
|
United States42864 Posts
Communists opposing the liberalization of markets isn't news.
|
On May 27 2019 12:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Hannan actually retained his seat. Wins all round tonight. Show nested quote +As for why greens wouldn't vote LibDem, why would they? Green is pro EU. They literally ran/campaigned on that, unambiguously. To avoid vote splitting. You realise if all Change UK voters had voted Lib Dem then Lib Dems would have won more seats.If all greens voters had voted Lib Dem as well they'd have won more again.But of course not all green voters would have voted Lib Dem.So we're going around in circles here.I'm sure we can all agree that Change UK was a total waste of time though. And I'm not 'desperate'. The news everywhere is how well the Brexit Party has done, gaining 5 seats from the UKIP result in 2014. It's another great victory for Farage and democracy.
How is it great for democracy that a party without a manifesto has won multiple seats?
That is the worst thing for democracy. Uninvolved voters voting based on personality and image instead of principle. Of course the manifesto doesn't matter to most of them because they won't back the Brexit Party in UK elections.
On May 27 2019 13:47 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
My last post here for now comes from an article courtesy of the Communist Party of Britain, who backed The Brexit Party in the EU referendum.
It's great at shattering perceptions put across by the biased mainstream media.
What does the Labour party actually stand for these days?
It's kind of funny that you complain about the 'biased mainstream media' when you're clearly only getting your news from said media.
Labour's problem is a deep-rooted identity crisis that is the result of its successes under Blair, where it went mostly to the right in order to bleed voters from the tories. Labour runs under a paradigm of 'get elected first, then try and do some socialist stuff'. They're fundamentally disingenuous, but that stems from a rooted belief that people like left wing ideas, but won't vote if they have them explained. They think the voters vote right wing but want left wing.
Jeremy Corbyn's currently bringing all this to a head by being genuinely left wing and wanting to bring Labour back to its pre-Blair socialist roots, and the voters really like it.
Labour still stands for the exact same stuff it always did. It's a massive fight about method that's fucking up the party right now.
|
I can't believe people are still duscussing Brexit in binary terms. Haven't we learned anything in the past three years? What we know from this election:
Remain parties - 40%
Hard Brexit parties - 35%
Tory/Labour - 24%
The problem is that we know for a fact that of those 24% there's an unknown but significant number that is pro-brexit but not without a deal. They would rather remain than crash out and this group is largely incompatible with the 35%. Treating them as one, as in the referendum, is why you are in this mess. Until those two groups can come together there simply won't be a majority for any form of Brexit.
My take from the elections is that nothing has really changed. At all.
|
Northern Ireland25524 Posts
On May 27 2019 21:01 Longshank wrote:
I can't believe people are still duscussing Brexit in binary terms. Haven't we learned anything in the past three years? What we know from this election:
Remain parties - 40%
Hard Brexit parties - 35%
Tory/Labour - 24%
The problem is that we know for a fact that of those 24% there's an unknown but significant number that is pro-brexit but not without a deal. They would rather remain than crash out and this group is largely incompatible with the 35%. Treating them as one, as in the referendum, is why you are in this mess. Until those two groups can come together there simply won't be a majority for any form of Brexit.
My take from the elections is that nothing has really changed. At all.
There’s knock ons on other issues too, it’s a while ago now but polling I saw specifically on a no-deal Brexit happening saw a decent enough swing that it pushes Scotland into being pro-independence, and it pushes Northern Ireland into supporting a United Ireland.
As you say, there’s no splitting of the binary options at all, so to proceed with probably the most singularly unpopular of them all because it nests within a majority vote would be complete folly and not really democratic at all.
As to how to resolve this mess, well I’m at a loss how to do so, which gives me something in common with our Parliamentarians at least
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On May 27 2019 19:47 iamthedave wrote:
How is it great for democracy that a party without a manifesto has won multiple seats?
i think you answered your own question in your following sentence. these are just EU elections, and i think people feel a general disconnect with what happens in the EU parliament.
|
On May 28 2019 00:07 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2019 19:47 iamthedave wrote:
How is it great for democracy that a party without a manifesto has won multiple seats?
i think you answered your own question in your following sentence. these are just EU elections, and i think people feel a general disconnect with what happens in the EU parliament.
Uhm, they most likely feel more discontent with what happened in the UK Parliament over the last 3 years than with the EU Parliament.
If these people get their informarions from Farrage i would also highly doubt the amount of stuff they actually know.
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On May 28 2019 00:11 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 00:07 ahswtini wrote:On May 27 2019 19:47 iamthedave wrote:
How is it great for democracy that a party without a manifesto has won multiple seats?
i think you answered your own question in your following sentence. these are just EU elections, and i think people feel a general disconnect with what happens in the EU parliament. Uhm, they most likely feel more discontent with what happened in the UK Parliament over the last 3 years than with the EU Parliament. If these people get their informarions from Farrage i would also highly doubt the amount of stuff they actually know.
I said 'disconnect' not 'discontent'
|
Oh, ok. My bad  . Still this was pretty much a protest vote in the UK?
|
United States42864 Posts
It certainly won’t be recreated in the next general election. Whenever PR is used people vote for weird single issue parties because it’s easier to get one elected and nobody actually cares about the EU parliament anyway. Westminster elections matter, nobody wants to give a dipshit like Farage power there. The problem is that not many people want to give BoJo or Corbyn power either.
|
All we can say is that there is a substantial amount of politically motivated people in the UK, who believe that UK should leave the EU, above and beyond any other political issue.
|
Seeing as the main criticism is Labour wasn't clearly remain these are the actual numbers on brexit which can be used although i still think its a bit silly to read exact leave/remain figures. John Curtice reckons its stil 50:50.
In other News Sajid Javid (Home Secretary) and Kit Malthouse (Housing Minister, and man behind the "Malthouse Compromise") have announced they are running for leader which makes 10 runners with another 4 expected to run (Brady, Baker, Cleverly, Mordaunt.)
Michael Gove has given his first policy announcement if he were to be PM:
|
Yeah, roughly 50/50 from those numbers, which is roughly what I suspected. Brexit's really quite boring at this point. We're just in a long coma before it's over and the interesting stuff starts up again.
|
On May 28 2019 10:04 iamthedave wrote:
Yeah, roughly 50/50 from those numbers, which is roughly what I suspected. Brexit's really quite boring at this point. We're just in a long coma before it's over and the interesting stuff starts up again.
50/50 what? How do you merge Rory Stewart's or Ken Clarke's votes with Farage's and Peter Bone's?
|
He can get more detailed information on labour from the latest ashcroft poll.He claims 3/10 of labour voters who backed labour in the eu election back leave.Also the top issue for green party voters was “They had best issues on policies other than Brexit” so i stick by my previous claim of the uselessness of claiming 100% of green voters back remain.This adding this to that and getting such and such is pretty tiresome.
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/05/my-euro-election-post-vote-poll-most-tory-switchers-say-they-will-stay-with-their-new-party/
Finally ex Labour MP George Galloway tried to get pre-selection for Brexit Party in the Peterborough by election, 6th June.He failed but Brexit Party is hot favourite to win according to bookies odds.With May stepping down the following day a Brexit Party win would be great, put more fear into the tories.
|
On May 27 2019 19:47 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2019 12:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Hannan actually retained his seat. Wins all round tonight. As for why greens wouldn't vote LibDem, why would they? Green is pro EU. They literally ran/campaigned on that, unambiguously. To avoid vote splitting. You realise if all Change UK voters had voted Lib Dem then Lib Dems would have won more seats.If all greens voters had voted Lib Dem as well they'd have won more again.But of course not all green voters would have voted Lib Dem.So we're going around in circles here.I'm sure we can all agree that Change UK was a total waste of time though. And I'm not 'desperate'. The news everywhere is how well the Brexit Party has done, gaining 5 seats from the UKIP result in 2014. It's another great victory for Farage and democracy. How is it great for democracy that a party without a manifesto has won multiple seats? That is the worst thing for democracy. Uninvolved voters voting based on personality and image instead of principle. Of course the manifesto doesn't matter to most of them because they won't back the Brexit Party in UK elections. Show nested quote +On May 27 2019 13:47 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
My last post here for now comes from an article courtesy of the Communist Party of Britain, who backed The Brexit Party in the EU referendum.
It's great at shattering perceptions put across by the biased mainstream media.
What does the Labour party actually stand for these days?
Jeremy Corbyn's currently bringing all this to a head by being genuinely left wing and wanting to bring Labour back to its pre-Blair socialist roots, and the voters really like it. Labour still stands for the exact same stuff it always did. It's a massive fight about method that's fucking up the party right now.
Personally i would have thought socialists oppose the harsh austerity imposed by the EU on nations like Greece.
For working class people doesn’t the EU free movement of people increase the supply of lower skilled workers thus depressing wages and job opportunities for indigenous working class Brits? I mean its great for the wealthy in London who can get maids, gardeners and plumbers dirt cheap but what is socialist about that?
Why did Sunderland vote leave 60/40 in 16 and for the brexit party 39.8% in the recent eu elections with the labour vote crashing by half from 40% to 20%? Is it cos they fick? Thats the feeling in the London bubble.
Support a 2nd referendum and Labour will be destroyed in working class areas outside London.They’re finished.
|
Well if Labour don't support a 2nd referendum they will be destroyed everywhere else. A majority of their voters are still remainers nationally.
They can't support brexit and at the same time support remain. It is too big of an issue for a party to have both positions.It would be like if Labour were for privatization and at the same time nationalization of companies/services (or any other major polarizing political question that defines a party). Therefor they need to take a position, and they will get fucked. However they will get more fucked by not taking any position at all. Who wants to vote for a party which fights for both sides of the biggest and most polarized issue in modern UK politics?
|
Northern Ireland25524 Posts
That’s wishful thinking IMO, it presupposes that Brexit will actually deliver any of the things that caused those people to fe (rightly) dissatisfied in the first place.
Labour were on an upward curve before Brexit dominated all politics, they had some popular policies and if it comes down to it again anytime soon I think many of those will be popular again.
You can’t keep all of the benefits of global capitalism in its current form and have none of the downsides, politicians don’t have the balls to outright say this but it is the case.
Want cheap consumer goods from all over the world, but you want manufacturing jobs that can’t produce them cheaply enough, pick one.
I mean that’s super simplistic but, you get my point.
Lack of a proper decentralisation strategy that would push jobs out of London and into post-industrial heartlands is a massive failure of all involved and is a British political failure not a European one.
Life would be better for all concerned if this were the case IMO, in all sorts of areas.
|
On May 28 2019 02:24 KwarK wrote:
It certainly won’t be recreated in the next general election. Whenever PR is used people vote for weird single issue parties because it’s easier to get one elected and nobody actually cares about the EU parliament anyway. Westminster elections matter, nobody wants to give a dipshit like Farage power there. The problem is that not many people want to give BoJo or Corbyn power either.
So they vote BoJo... Sorry couldnt stop myself
I think you put to much trust in people, as for myself I wouldnt be surprised if random animal from youtube videos got a seat, because somebody put it on as a candidate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
