|
In order to ensure that this thread meets TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we ask that everyone please adhere to this mod note. Posts containing only Tweets or articles adds nothing to the discussions. Therefore, when providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments will be actioned upon. All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting. https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk |
On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options.
that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border.
I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return.
|
On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return.
The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is.
If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border.
|
The UK shouldn't throw itself under the bus, but see what's happening... Nothing the EU can do.
|
On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen.
That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop...
|
On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border.
that is something that the EU and Ireland said would be categorically impossible for them to accept.
It's as hard to swallow for the EU as a border in the Irish Sea would be for the UK
|
On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop...
And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border.
|
On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border. if the UK people want chlorine chicken that's their problem, not mine or the EU's. But the EU is not going to accept it.
|
On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options.
The EU allready said it would be open to a technical solution... The issue: The EU couldn't find one that would work.
So, forget it.
|
On January 30 2019 07:42 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border. if the UK people want chlorine chicken that's their problem, not mine or the EU's. But the EU is not going to accept it.
Then we have a no deal scenario, a potentially angry neighbour on your doorstep and Ireland would be in some serious trouble if it does put up the border the EU requests
|
On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border.
Just wondering if you actually understand how little sense this makes?
|
On January 30 2019 07:48 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 05:46 Zaros wrote:
This is a very good night for brexiteers/May, she can now go back to Brussels and make some demands with the backing of Parliament. If the EU doesn't agree MPs have also shown they don't have the ability to actually do something to stop No Deal. Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation. The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable. What room is there for the EU to move? The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't. If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border. Just wondering if you actually understand how little sense this makes?
What doesnt make sense? In a hard brexit scenario the UK has its own set of customs rules and standards on goods, the EU has its own set which the republic of Ireland is a part of. Any goods coming into the UK need to meet UK customs rules and standards, any goods coming into the republic of Ireland need to meet EU rules and standards. Apparently according to the EU side their has to be a border to maintain those rules and make sure UK producers can't sell non abiding goods into the EU. The reverse is also true that EU producers could sell non abiding goods to the UK, even in this scenario most people in the UK would not enforce that border, but the EU insists that it must.
Again this is only in respect to the land border in northern ireland, everyone is perfectly happy with checks elsewhere in mainland Europe.
|
How did you come to the conviction that Ireland is happy to defy European law for the UK? And that the EU will let that happen?
|
On January 30 2019 07:47 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:42 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation.
The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable.
What room is there for the EU to move?
The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't.
If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border. if the UK people want chlorine chicken that's their problem, not mine or the EU's. But the EU is not going to accept it. Then we have a no deal scenario, a potentially angry neighbour on your doorstep and Ireland would be in some serious trouble if it does put up the border the EU requests
which is why the EU already rejected it. You're asking the EU to screw over Ireland to please the UK.
I know there's a notion that it's only Germany (and sometimes France as well) dictating what the EU stance should be over in the UK but that's just not true. The Canada deal almost failed because belgium (? was it belgium?) was against it and everyone else was in favor of it. What you're proposing is an instant veto from Ireland. It's really not mainland Europe pushing Ireland to be this tough on the border against their own will.
|
On January 30 2019 07:57 Artisreal wrote:
How did you come to the conviction that Ireland is happy to defy European law for the UK? And that the EU will let that happen?
Nowhere did i say the republic of ireland was happy to defy European Law, but it is a clear negotiating objective of Ireland that there is no hard border.
|
On January 30 2019 07:53 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:48 m4ini wrote:On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]Again, what is the EU going to give? A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU will not happen. Its an EU nation.
The 4 freedoms are as ever non-negotiable.
What room is there for the EU to move?
The UK never thought about how a Brexit would handle Ireland and they still haven't.
If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border. Just wondering if you actually understand how little sense this makes? What doesnt make sense? In a hard brexit scenario the UK has its own set of customs rules and standards on goods, the EU has its own set which the republic of Ireland is a part of. Any goods coming into the UK need to meet UK customs rules and standards, any goods coming into the republic of Ireland need to meet EU rules and standards. Apparently according to the EU side their has to be a border to maintain those rules and make sure UK producers can't sell non abiding goods into the EU. The reverse is also true that EU producers could sell non abiding goods to the UK, even in this scenario most people in the UK would not enforce that border, but the EU insists that it must.
If you have an agreed set of rules, which we currently have, then leave and loosen regulations, something that was made painfully clear already (do you think people just came up with chlorinated chicken? There's a reason that's used as an example), then one country will meet regulations by default.
Except, of course, you actually would put regulations in place that requires chicken to be chlorinated.
Like, there's zero sense in your argument. It's the UK not giving a shit about regulations (hell, that's one of the reasons why you leave in the first place). It's the UK that's going to get gang raped by the big players like the USA and china, as, again, was made plenty clear already by the US (things like NHS and poultry being baked into trade agreements is already a given).
Again this is only in respect to the land border in northern ireland, everyone is perfectly happy with checks elsewhere in mainland Europe.
Yeah, problem here being that NI already is in the EU. So what you're asking for is to fuck north irish people, so you can get what you want. You'd have to exempt NI from EU regulations for that to make sense.
That sounds like a reasonable position to have.
|
On January 30 2019 08:04 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 07:53 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:48 m4ini wrote:On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 06:10 Zaros wrote:
[quote]
If the EU doesn't want to budge thats fine, but if you want to avoid a hard border in Ireland then saying we have an agreement we are not going to change it, when MPs have quite painstakingly come together to vote for the one change they want you will end up driving the UK to a no deal exit and creating the very border you want to stop. As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options. A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit. A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable. So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'. the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen. What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms? Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them. Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border. Just wondering if you actually understand how little sense this makes? What doesnt make sense? In a hard brexit scenario the UK has its own set of customs rules and standards on goods, the EU has its own set which the republic of Ireland is a part of. Any goods coming into the UK need to meet UK customs rules and standards, any goods coming into the republic of Ireland need to meet EU rules and standards. Apparently according to the EU side their has to be a border to maintain those rules and make sure UK producers can't sell non abiding goods into the EU. The reverse is also true that EU producers could sell non abiding goods to the UK, even in this scenario most people in the UK would not enforce that border, but the EU insists that it must. If you have an agreed set of rules, which we currently have, then leave and loosen regulations, something that was made painfully clear already (do you think people just came up with chlorinated chicken? There's a reason that's used as an example), then one country will meet regulations by default. Except, of course, you actually would put regulations in place that requires chicken to be chlorinated. Like, there's zero sense in your argument. It's the UK not giving a shit about regulations (hell, that's one of the reasons why you leave in the first place). It's the UK that's going to get gang raped by the big players like the USA and china, as, again, was made plenty clear already by the US (things like NHS and poultry being baked into trade agreements is already a given).
Thats really not as clear cut as you say, the Environment Secretary is opposed to Chlorinated chicken as are many MPs and the plan from DEFRA is to increase Environmental and Food Standards above EU levels I'm not gonna engage on the gang raped claim if you believe that then fine but I have a very different world view.
|
On January 30 2019 08:08 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 08:04 m4ini wrote:On January 30 2019 07:53 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:48 m4ini wrote:On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 06:32 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]As someone layed out earlier. there are 3 options.
A border between Ireland and the EU - Unacceptable because its an EU country
A border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - violates the good friday agreement? and the result of a hard Brexit.
A border between Northern Ireland and the UK - I assume the UK considers this unacceptable.
So there you have it, no deal is possible. Hard Brexit it is. Which the EU will accept because compromising is a worse situation for them and the UK can worry about how its going to avoid another 'troubles'.
the MP's havent voted for jack shit that I have seen.
What did the MPs actually decide today? What proposal did they put forward that meets the EU's clear and present position of no border between Ireland and the rest of the EU and no partial 4 freedoms?
Edit: the tweets about how this effects popular opinion within the UK are especially LOL worthy. The EU doesn't give a shit about the opinion of UK voters. The UK is leaving after all. If your politicians want to sell the people on a hard Brexit that's on them.
Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border. Just wondering if you actually understand how little sense this makes? What doesnt make sense? In a hard brexit scenario the UK has its own set of customs rules and standards on goods, the EU has its own set which the republic of Ireland is a part of. Any goods coming into the UK need to meet UK customs rules and standards, any goods coming into the republic of Ireland need to meet EU rules and standards. Apparently according to the EU side their has to be a border to maintain those rules and make sure UK producers can't sell non abiding goods into the EU. The reverse is also true that EU producers could sell non abiding goods to the UK, even in this scenario most people in the UK would not enforce that border, but the EU insists that it must. If you have an agreed set of rules, which we currently have, then leave and loosen regulations, something that was made painfully clear already (do you think people just came up with chlorinated chicken? There's a reason that's used as an example), then one country will meet regulations by default. Except, of course, you actually would put regulations in place that requires chicken to be chlorinated. Like, there's zero sense in your argument. It's the UK not giving a shit about regulations (hell, that's one of the reasons why you leave in the first place). It's the UK that's going to get gang raped by the big players like the USA and china, as, again, was made plenty clear already by the US (things like NHS and poultry being baked into trade agreements is already a given). Thats really not as clear cut as you say, the Environment Secretary is opposed to Chlorinated chicken as are many MPs and the plan from DEFRA is to increase Environmental and Food Standards above EU levels I'm not gonna engage on the gang raped claim if you believe that then fine but I have a very different world view.
Yeah, that one is very clear. A reality check every now and then would help i suppose.
Here's a fact for you.
The US is going to tell you to suck a fat one. Beggars can't be choosers, and like it or not, the UK will be the beggar once it engages with the US in trade talk. If they tie their poultry to a trade deal (does that red line business sound familiar, or are we back to "well we get the stuff we want and the US, altruistic as they are, will totally accept"?), you're going to accept. Since you have no choice anyway. What you gonna do, walk away with no deal?
Of course MPs are against chlorinated chicken, guess what, they're against child rape too. And using nukes as wrecking balls. Like, you know. Stuff that 100% will not get you re-elected. I remember vividly many MPs harp on how they need to protect the NHS - factually, nothing's going to happen either. And if you think that somehow magically everyone in the world forgets that their own country is more important than the well being of brits, and they all accept trading with the UK on similar terms like they do with the EU, i suppose i understand why you'd think that today somehow was a great day for brexiters and the EU will totally have to come up with new stuff.
edit: that's of course also completely ignoring the fact that Gove could've already be done with this by ensuring standards in his agriculture bill.
Which he conveniently didn't, arguing that this would be better suited to put into a trade bill.
It's also ignoring that Neil Parish talked to Sonny Perdue, who allegedly basically just talked about how to get their poultry access to the UK. Like.. I mean, come on. Just wake up. I understand and accept that you want to leave the EU, got no problem with that. Take it to the chin then, rather than deluding yourself with rivers of milk and trees of gold.
|
On January 30 2019 08:18 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 08:08 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 08:04 m4ini wrote:On January 30 2019 07:53 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:48 m4ini wrote:On January 30 2019 07:39 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 30 2019 07:19 Zaros wrote:On January 30 2019 07:14 Toadesstern wrote:On January 30 2019 06:59 Zaros wrote:
[quote]
Even Michel Barnier was talking about "technological Solutions" to not have a border in the event of hard brexit so its clearly not just those options. that was specifically mentioned about a border between NI <-> rest of UK. Basicly Barnier saying that if the UK was somehow willing to move past one of it's own red lines and put the border inside the UK the EU might be willing to compromise as well: If the border is within the UK we're okay with it not being a hard border. I find it really questionable that that offer exists for a border between NI <-> Ireland. Because if the border is inside the EU it's the UK getting what they want while the EU gives up on one of their redlines without getting anything in return. The EU shouldn't be making a power play for Northern Ireland, if it genuinely wants a deal and no border in Ireland then it can fudge the backstop and rely on technology, whistle blowing and random checks away from the border to maintain the integrity of the EU customs union, note it can still have full checks at calais and other ports just leave Ireland as a weird special case which it is. If thats not acceptable then it can make Ireland put up a border but there is no desire for the UK to put up a border their and even in a No deal scenario we would not put up a hard border. Having the UK stop following EU regulations and not having a border somewhere is the EU poking a hole in their own boat. Its not going to happen. That's why the UK would still abide EU regulations under the backstop... And the Ireland would not be abiding by UK regulations but 90% of people dont care enough to put up a border. Just wondering if you actually understand how little sense this makes? What doesnt make sense? In a hard brexit scenario the UK has its own set of customs rules and standards on goods, the EU has its own set which the republic of Ireland is a part of. Any goods coming into the UK need to meet UK customs rules and standards, any goods coming into the republic of Ireland need to meet EU rules and standards. Apparently according to the EU side their has to be a border to maintain those rules and make sure UK producers can't sell non abiding goods into the EU. The reverse is also true that EU producers could sell non abiding goods to the UK, even in this scenario most people in the UK would not enforce that border, but the EU insists that it must. If you have an agreed set of rules, which we currently have, then leave and loosen regulations, something that was made painfully clear already (do you think people just came up with chlorinated chicken? There's a reason that's used as an example), then one country will meet regulations by default. Except, of course, you actually would put regulations in place that requires chicken to be chlorinated. Like, there's zero sense in your argument. It's the UK not giving a shit about regulations (hell, that's one of the reasons why you leave in the first place). It's the UK that's going to get gang raped by the big players like the USA and china, as, again, was made plenty clear already by the US (things like NHS and poultry being baked into trade agreements is already a given). Thats really not as clear cut as you say, the Environment Secretary is opposed to Chlorinated chicken as are many MPs and the plan from DEFRA is to increase Environmental and Food Standards above EU levels I'm not gonna engage on the gang raped claim if you believe that then fine but I have a very different world view. Yeah, that one is very clear. A reality check every now and then would help i suppose. Here's a fact for you. The US is going to tell you to suck a fat one. Beggars can't be choosers, and like it or not, the UK will be the beggar once it engages with the US in trade talk. If they tie their poultry to a trade deal (does that red line business sound familiar, or are we back to "well we get the stuff we want and the US, altruistic as they are, will totally accept"?) Of course MPs are against chlorinated chicken, guess what, they're against child rape too. And using nukes as wrecking balls. Like, you know. Stuff that 100% will not get you re-elected. I remember vividly many MPs harp on how they need to protect the NHS - factually, nothing's going to happen either. And if you think that somehow magically everyone in the world forgets that their own country is more important than the well being of brits, and they all accept trading with the UK on similar terms like they do with the EU, i suppose i understand why you'd think that today somehow was a great day for brexiters and the EU will totally have to come up with new stuff.
As I said there is nothing there worth engaging with.
|
|
|
Since the dust has settled a little, here's reality.
What we saw in the vote last was a clear mandate to take back to Europe to say this is what parliament will support.
What came through in the previous debate is that there is a central concern on the backstop. It was a vote on the deal if this central concern can be addressed.
Asked what the alternative arrangements are for the backstop, Barclay cited the use of technology, and the Malthouse compromise.
But after repeated questioning he could not spell out what the alternative to the backstop could be.
So basically, the UK rejected an idea by pointing at something that doesn't exist, calling it a "way better option", and, well, seems to rely on the EU to somehow find a way to "invent" that option. Might as well give cold fusion a go, apparently demanding things that don't exist yet just means that someone else has to get it done (in 60 days no less).
And here's why this entire charade was bullshit from the get go.
Yeah, because that's going to work.
A: the UK has no idea what "technical options" would work since they don't exist and the UK very clearly will not come up with these in the next 60 days. Furthermore, and that's pretty obvious, the EU would only re-open negotiations if the UK moves their red lines (even though UK politicians seem to miss that if you want something, you gotta give something - and no, the £39b that are a prerequisite for any deal isn't that, it's like me saying to a waitress that "i might pay my food, but if you give me a handjob, i definitely will pay for my food) - something the UK made clear isn't going to happen, and with 100% certainty would prevent the "next iteration" to get through parliament as well - because now there's more bad stuff in there that wasn't there before.
This entire charade was a waste of time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
