|
In order to ensure that this thread meets TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we ask that everyone please adhere to this mod note. Posts containing only Tweets or articles adds nothing to the discussions. Therefore, when providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments will be actioned upon. All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting. https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk |
I saw an interview with one of the head eu negotiators about the technical solutions to avoid the backstop and the general state of things yesterday.
She plainly said:
The EU is theoretically open to a technological solution but it has actually looked at all borders in the world for such a solution, it couldn't find one anywhere in the world and therefore Backstop it is. There won't be new negotiations.
I was actually surprised how clear the messaging was, the EU negotiators seem to be plain annoyed, they feel like their job is done. 2-3 Weeks more of this and I could imagine one of them (accidentally) stating that the UK can go fuck itself directly to a journalist.
|
I read/listened to/watched a lot about brexit for the last one or two months and my conclusion is that after the negotiations ended it was all about internal UK politics. That's why everybody outside of the kingdom is so annoyed of it.
The worst thing is that it is only politics. It's not about economy, people's rights or anything else. Just politics. It's a bubble they keep floating in until it pops.
Edit: spelling and such
|
On January 30 2019 20:12 schaf wrote:
I read/listened to/watched a lot about brexit for the last one it two months and my conclusion is that after the negotiations ended it's all about internal UK politics. That's why everybody outside of the kingdom is so annoyed of it.
The worst thing is that it is only politics. It's not about economy, people's rights or anything else. Just politics. It's a bubble they keep floating in until it pops. Its not that its just politics, its that there is only one side (out of seemly 3-4) that is actually talking about a possible proposal (May) and everyone else is still living in a fairy tale and keeps coming up with vague solutions that the EU has already categorically rejected.
|
The parliament of Acrofales just passed a resolution that you all owe me a million $. I accept paypal. Oh wait. What? I don't get to decide that and you don't want to pay? Why not?! Ok. You know what, I'll meet you halfway! You all owe me 500k!
You still don't want to pay? Now who's being intransigent!
|
United States44321 Posts
On January 29 2019 19:37 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2019 19:32 m4ini wrote:It's a joke and a half. It's insane by the UK to assume that the EU will now happily accept the deal considering they, throughout the discourse, made clear that this part isn't actually negotiable. Comments like these here show how detached they are from reality. “The prime minister has been aware of the discussions. At some point, there has to be compromise on all sides in order to get a deal over the line,” she said. The backstop already was the compromise. We're, again, back to the UK wanting the good stuff, but god no, the bad stuff is unacceptable. As offer they "commit to pay the £39b", which is a prerequisite for anything afterwards anyway. For that they basically want a free-trade agreement, and assurance that basically they're not committing to anything, whereas the EU (and Ireland, for that matter) better hope that the UK keeps their "pinky promises". Like, these are literally mentally challenged people not able to understand that this isn't how this works, and by this point, i'm actually hoping for the UK to crash out the EU. The UK has proven without a doubt that they're not able to indeed A: keep to commitments, B: are able and willing to spin their position on a dime, whim and in a day. How do you even negotiate with someone who feels entitled to get all the good shit of someone, but isn't willing to budge on any of their "red lines"? You don't. That's why "all the great free trade deals we'll have on the 29th" is currently "well we have none" - and that won't change for a while, since the UK is vastly overestimating it's importance - and with that, actually wouldn't accept an actually fair deal. Gonna be fun to watch that clusterfuck once it gets going - probably as much fun as the people in the UK realising that trading on WTO rules indeed doesn't actually mean that they can trade however they want, quite the contrary. Keep in mind, this is 60 days before the UK leaves. It's absolutely insane. Not only this, but Liam Fox (our international trade secretary - brexiter) has just made a statement to the effect that we can now blackmail EU countries again with the threat of no deal because Germany's economy has started to weaken. We couldn't do it last time, it won't work this time. The level of delusion at play here is astounding.
It’s like threatening to shoot yourself in your friend’s kitchen if he doesn’t give you his car.
|
kind of funny, Rolls-Royce now offically making german products?
source: uk.reuters.com
[...]
Officials say the move will make it easier for Rolls to continue to sell engines outside Europe following Brexit, which would otherwise have depended on new regulatory deals being struck between Britain and the nations of many airlines.
Aircraft safety and the design approvals process are among issues that Britain and the EU have yet to settle.
Rolls said in April it had applied for permission to transfer the approval process - and with it the home for its designs as far as regulators are concerned - for large jet engines to its German unit to ease the impact of Brexit.
The European Aviation Safety Agency said in a filing that it had now formally approved the request.
“Rolls-Royce has become in terms of conception a German organisation, so belonging to the EU,” a European official said.
“By doing this their products continue to be European. If they had not done so, they would have been British products and in the case of a hard Brexit it would be much harder for such a product to accepted by third countries than a European one.”
[...]
really has no effect on anything. No job transfers or anything, it's just a formal thing to make sure they don't get screwed over with Brexit and can still sell stuff.
But it's funny, at least to me, that they specifically did this not for it to be easier to sell into the EU without any hiccups, but for it to be easier to sell to other, non-EU nations because that would be really hard with no new deals in place and god knows when and how they turn out.
I thought one of the big points was that trading with the rest of the world would be so much better outside of the EU
|
So No Deal Brexiters are now saying the UK can crash out of the EU and trade under WTO rules. That they don't need to pay the 39 billion. And that then they can be making trade deals better than those that the EU has. As for the NI border, there will be an 'alternative solution' to the Backstop.
So under WTO rules, the EU is obliged to put the same tariffs on the UK than they do on any other country. So to protect EU farmers, food quality, and food security, the EU will have to put tariffs on the UK. Unless the UK has no tariffs of itself. But then the UK cannot put tariffs on any country. And then those countries, who have deals with the EU, will have to sign a new deal with the UK while they are already having tariff-less trade with the UK and while knowing that the UK just shredded both the contracts it had with the EU as the Friday Peace accords. All because of a internal Tory-conflict. So which country will immediately offer the UK a better deal than they negotiated out with the EU over multiple years?
The only thing I cannot figure out is what the Brexiters, hard or soft, actually want on the Ireland-NI border. Do they want the entirety of Ireland to be part of the UK customs union? Are they ready to ditch DUP on the last moment and let NI stay inside of the EU customs union, while the UK forms it's own? Or do they really want to try to enforce a border and risk civil war?
Now May is going back to Brussels and she claims she is renegotiating the deal when Brussels is not willing to do so. And if they were, they have no clue what May needs to pass the deal in UK parliament because UK parliament are apparently against anything but running down the clock to force a no-deal.
|
I’m no expert, but I’ve always heard that the historical Tory stance is “Who fucking cares what Ireland wants?” Because that seems to be their plan right now.
+ Show Spoiler +Not to say that Labor has been any better on the subject historically.
|
UK, Germany and France, calling themselves the E3, just agreed to set up a back channel that facilitates payments to Iran, bypassing the US sanctions(Russia and China are doing it/looking into it too) so i don't know, on some level they can agree/cooperate nicely; or is that oil trumps everything?.
when seeing that in here the talk is about 'all being political', the logical next step would be to wonder what do those political factions want?(on a 'practical/pragmatic level); 'cause someone somewhere has to want something, a bribe of sorts, personal or for his backers(lobby lackeys).
so instead of halfassed dismissals of persons/parties/groups and surreal talk about ethics, morals and at times even pragmatism(pertaining to UK as a country as if 'the politics' give a fuck), .. get a clue men; what do those fuckers actually want?. where is the investigative journalism/free press on this?.
|
On February 01 2019 03:56 xM(Z wrote:
UK, Germany and France, calling themselves the E3, just agreed to set up a back channel that facilitates payments to Iran, bypassing the US sanctions(Russia and China are doing it/looking into it too) so i don't know, on some level they can agree/cooperate nicely; or is that oil trumps everything?.
when seeing that in here the talk is about 'all being political', the logical next step would be to wonder what do those political factions want?(on a 'practical/pragmatic level); 'cause someone somewhere has to want something, a bribe of sorts, personal or for his backers(lobby lackeys).
so instead of halfassed dismissals of persons/parties/groups and surreal talk about ethics, morals and at times even pragmatism(pertaining to UK as a country as if 'the politics' give a fuck), .. get a clue men; what do those fuckers actually want?. where is the investigative journalism/free press on this?.
Do you guys still have that in Europe/the UK?
|
Why would they break off the Iran deal their governments all say Iran is complying with the terms of the agreement? Hell, even the US intelligence agencies say Iran is complying. What is the alternative, another 50 years of sanctions and bad blood?
|
I think the NI / Ireland border question is quite an interesting one in the case of a No-Deal Brexit. We had the notion in here 2 days ago that the EU would have to "force" Ireland to put up a border, that they might refuse and that the UK is not going to put up a border anyways in case of a No-Deal scenario.
The thing with that is however that in a No-Deal scenario you're dealing under WTO terms and like mentioned above, you're not allowed to discriminate against countries. Usually that refers to tariffs but I would not be surprised if the US / China / Russia are going to argue that it's an economic advantage for things to get into the country without a border in place (no delays) and argue that they also want the same treatment from the UK/EU.
Ireland being part of the UK customs requires the EU to sign that kind of a deal and there's no way in hell they do that.
|
On February 01 2019 03:56 xM(Z wrote:
UK, Germany and France, calling themselves the E3, just agreed to set up a back channel that facilitates payments to Iran, bypassing the US sanctions(Russia and China are doing it/looking into it too) so i don't know, on some level they can agree/cooperate nicely; or is that oil trumps everything?.
Problem being? That they don't accept Trumps "allmight", and don't give a shit about his and boltons personal opinions on the Iran deal (seeing that those two are literally contradicted by any other source including their own intelligence agencies, except woopsie Israel with all the evidence they didn't show but absolutely exist)?
This new "system" simply enables companies to trade with Iran. Which is completely fine, seeing that the US is the only one not giving a shit about their own deal, seems kinda retarded to assume that everyone else in the world just follows suit. That's not how sanctions work.
If just one country decides to sanction Iran, then that country can do so if it wants. Imagine Russia (you know, the country that basically fuels europe) sanctioning the US, does that mean everyone in europe needs to stop trading with the US?
What is it with these ridiculous ideas here?
I thought one of the big points was that trading with the rest of the world would be so much better outside of the EU
Yeah, just look at all the trade deals the UK has already secured. There's, well.. Somethingsomething "in principle" with Israel, and also, somethingorother with six(!!!!) south-african countries. That's at least worth ten, maybe even eleven billion pounds, probably. That's at least like a sixtieth of the current trade balance, and with these whopping seven six and one in principle deals, it's only 751 more to go just to get to the current level.
Ezpz.
|
On February 01 2019 13:09 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2019 03:56 xM(Z wrote:
UK, Germany and France, calling themselves the E3, just agreed to set up a back channel that facilitates payments to Iran, bypassing the US sanctions(Russia and China are doing it/looking into it too) so i don't know, on some level they can agree/cooperate nicely; or is that oil trumps everything?.
Problem being? That they don't accept Trumps "allmight", and don't give a shit about his and boltons personal opinions on the Iran deal (seeing that those two are literally contradicted by any other source including their own intelligence agencies, except woopsie Israel with all the evidence they didn't show but absolutely exist)? This new "system" simply enables companies to trade with Iran. Which is completely fine, seeing that the US is the only one not giving a shit about their own deal, seems kinda retarded to assume that everyone else in the world just follows suit. That's not how sanctions work. If just one country decides to sanction Iran, then that country can do so if it wants. Imagine Russia (you know, the country that basically fuels europe) sanctioning the US, does that mean everyone in europe needs to stop trading with the US? What is it with these ridiculous ideas here? Show nested quote +I thought one of the big points was that trading with the rest of the world would be so much better outside of the EU
Yeah, just look at all the trade deals the UK has already secured. There's, well.. Somethingsomething " in principle" with Israel, and also, somethingorother with six(!!!!) south-african countries. That's at least worth ten, maybe even eleven billion pounds, probably. That's at least like a sixtieth of the current trade balance, and with these whopping seven six and one in principle deals, it's only 751 more to go just to get to the current level. Ezpz.
Well, the sanctions the US (re-)imposed also sanction any company from abroad that trades with Iran from trading with the US. This construction was invented to shelter them and allow them to have their cake and eat it too. I guess the main question is whether the US wants to escalate its little spat with the EU over this, or whether they're going to accept this work around for their unilaterally imposed sanctions. And soon, the UK will have to stand up to the US about things like this all on its lonesome, or more likely, have it crammed down their throat, because they don't have the leverage to say "no" to things like this without combining forces with Germany, France, Italy, and a bunch of other nations whose interests mostly align.
|
Mishandled Brexit doesn't have to mean that the UK will be forced to do anything the US will tell them to. The EU won't disappear, London can choose between continuing to cooperate with it (on less attractive but still mutually beneficial terms) and facing its retaliation for siding with the Americans.
|
On February 01 2019 17:08 Sent. wrote:
Mishandled Brexit doesn't have to mean that the UK will be forced to do anything the US will tell them to. The EU won't disappear, London can choose between continuing to cooperate with it (on less attractive but still mutually beneficial terms) and facing its retaliation for siding with the Americans.
I was talking about this specific kind of thing where trade and international politics are quite explicitly tangled up in a "you're with me or against me" kinda way. While the EU and the UK can cooperate on this front, the US can also tell the UK that if they don't break all trade ties with Iran and join them in the sanctions, they won't get a trade deal. While the US can also tell the EU that, the EU is a far bigger market and thus has far more leverage to say "ok, suit yourself".
|
On February 01 2019 13:09 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2019 03:56 xM(Z wrote:
UK, Germany and France, calling themselves the E3, just agreed to set up a back channel that facilitates payments to Iran, bypassing the US sanctions(Russia and China are doing it/looking into it too) so i don't know, on some level they can agree/cooperate nicely; or is that oil trumps everything?.
Problem being? That they don't accept Trumps "allmight", and don't give a shit about his and boltons personal opinions on the Iran deal (seeing that those two are literally contradicted by any other source including their own intelligence agencies, except woopsie Israel with all the evidence they didn't show but absolutely exist)? This new "system" simply enables companies to trade with Iran. Which is completely fine, seeing that the US is the only one not giving a shit about their own deal, seems kinda retarded to assume that everyone else in the world just follows suit. That's not how sanctions work. If just one country decides to sanction Iran, then that country can do so if it wants. Imagine Russia (you know, the country that basically fuels europe) sanctioning the US, does that mean everyone in europe needs to stop trading with the US? What is it with these ridiculous ideas here? like this dude, look at him, morals and ethics; EU vs the big bad wolf, EU is right and Trump is wrong, fuck yea righteousness!. are you 3 dude?.
can you at least try and understand what, in very practical terms, an alliance with Iran would mean for anyone involved?. fuck Trump and losing the WHOLE US market, if you side with Iran you'll have to deal with Israel and Israel has been fucking whole countries from Eastern Africa to India and from Middle East to Ukraine, France/UK.
which middle level business would even touch that shit 'cause i guarantee you the big ones won't jump into this without serious military backing(defending strategic interests abroad).
i mean, taking down british MP's seems to be a joke for Israelis https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/12/israeli-official-plotted-take-down-british-mps-resigns-shai-masot The Israeli embassy official who was caught on camera plotting to “take down” British MPs has resigned from government service.
Shai Masot, a senior political officer at the embassy in London, resigned several days ago when he was sent back to Israel. The UK Foreign Office and the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs both said that they regarded the matter as closed.
But the shadow foreign secretary, Emily Thornberry, has called on the Commons foreign affairs committee to conduct an inquiry into the matter, saying it amounted to “improper interference in our democratic politics” by a foreign state.
...
In Al Jazeera’s series of documentaries, he is filmed as he starts to establish a group called Young Labour Friends of Israel – unaware that the man he has chosen to be chairman was an undercover reporter. He is seen making attempts to obscure the group’s connection with the embassy.
Israeli foreign ministry officials have played down Masot’s significance, describing him as a relatively junior figure. However, retired British diplomats say they believe it is highly unlikely that he was acting without authorisation.
Last year, Israeli diplomats in London warned the foreign ministry that attempts by another government department, the strategic affairs ministry, to run British Jewish groups from Jerusalem could be unlawful.
The strategic affairs ministry has been given the task of countering a worldwide campaign that is targeting Israel with boycotts, divestment and sanctions.
The cable from London warned: “The strategic affairs ministry must understand that ‘operating’ organisations directly from Jerusalem by email and telephone isn’t good for their health.” but sure, go on and fuck with the israelis because it's the right thing to do.
Edit: hell, this whole brexit, no brexit, hard brexit shit could be caused by squabbles between pro-Israel and pro-Arab factions(since EU wants to boycott israeli goods).
|
On February 01 2019 03:37 Plansix wrote:I’m no expert, but I’ve always heard that the historical Tory stance is “Who fucking cares what Ireland wants?” Because that seems to be their plan right now. + Show Spoiler +Not to say that Labor has been any better on the subject historically.
This man has unlocked the Rosetta Stone to Tory politics. That's roughly the same as their stance on the needs of Scotland.
|
On February 01 2019 19:48 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2019 13:09 m4ini wrote:On February 01 2019 03:56 xM(Z wrote:
UK, Germany and France, calling themselves the E3, just agreed to set up a back channel that facilitates payments to Iran, bypassing the US sanctions(Russia and China are doing it/looking into it too) so i don't know, on some level they can agree/cooperate nicely; or is that oil trumps everything?.
Problem being? That they don't accept Trumps "allmight", and don't give a shit about his and boltons personal opinions on the Iran deal (seeing that those two are literally contradicted by any other source including their own intelligence agencies, except woopsie Israel with all the evidence they didn't show but absolutely exist)? This new "system" simply enables companies to trade with Iran. Which is completely fine, seeing that the US is the only one not giving a shit about their own deal, seems kinda retarded to assume that everyone else in the world just follows suit. That's not how sanctions work. If just one country decides to sanction Iran, then that country can do so if it wants. Imagine Russia (you know, the country that basically fuels europe) sanctioning the US, does that mean everyone in europe needs to stop trading with the US? What is it with these ridiculous ideas here? like this dude, look at him, morals and ethics; EU vs the big bad wolf, EU is right and Trump is wrong, fuck yea righteousness!. are you 3 dude?. can you at least try and understand what, in very practical terms, an alliance with Iran would mean for anyone involved?. fuck Trump and losing the WHOLE US market, if you side with Iran you'll have to deal with Israel and Israel has been fucking whole countries from Eastern Africa to India and from Middle East to Ukraine, France/UK. which middle level business would even touch that shit 'cause i guarantee you the big ones won't jump into this without serious military backing(defending strategic interests abroad). i mean, taking down british MP's seems to be a joke for Israelis https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/12/israeli-official-plotted-take-down-british-mps-resigns-shai-masot Show nested quote +The Israeli embassy official who was caught on camera plotting to “take down” British MPs has resigned from government service.
Shai Masot, a senior political officer at the embassy in London, resigned several days ago when he was sent back to Israel. The UK Foreign Office and the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs both said that they regarded the matter as closed.
But the shadow foreign secretary, Emily Thornberry, has called on the Commons foreign affairs committee to conduct an inquiry into the matter, saying it amounted to “improper interference in our democratic politics” by a foreign state.
...
In Al Jazeera’s series of documentaries, he is filmed as he starts to establish a group called Young Labour Friends of Israel – unaware that the man he has chosen to be chairman was an undercover reporter. He is seen making attempts to obscure the group’s connection with the embassy.
Israeli foreign ministry officials have played down Masot’s significance, describing him as a relatively junior figure. However, retired British diplomats say they believe it is highly unlikely that he was acting without authorisation.
Last year, Israeli diplomats in London warned the foreign ministry that attempts by another government department, the strategic affairs ministry, to run British Jewish groups from Jerusalem could be unlawful.
The strategic affairs ministry has been given the task of countering a worldwide campaign that is targeting Israel with boycotts, divestment and sanctions.
The cable from London warned: “The strategic affairs ministry must understand that ‘operating’ organisations directly from Jerusalem by email and telephone isn’t good for their health.” but sure, go on and fuck with the israelis because it's the right thing to do. Edit: hell, this whole brexit, no brexit, hard brexit shit could be caused by squabbles between pro-Israel and pro-Arab factions(since EU wants to boycott israeli goods).
You do realize that Trump is the only section of the US government that is all about sanctioning EU countries that do business with Iran, right? That our intelligence agency just went before congress and basically testified that Trump has been lying about Iran to kill the deal.
I really need you to explain to us all how this is going to lead to losing the WHOLE US market.
|
Trump might run into problems when he tries to apply tariffs that way on other countries and thus it might be okay after all but that's clearly not something companies want to risk.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
