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On June 26 2016 17:22 NukeD wrote:
I watched a few Nigel Farage videos where he gives speeches in EU parliament and I have to say I am impressed. Especially where he calls out Juncker and the EU army plans. Thats some NWO sh** right there.
Hes an idiot and every knows it , he has failed 8 times in a row to be an MP and is a racist . His party UKIP is the polite face of the National Front, an entity who belives in racal purity
Anyone impressed by this clown has very low standards indeed. Hes laughing himself to death at the biggest con job in the history of UK politics.
Anyone can stand up and shout " we can do this and we can do that ". But actually doing it is left to people with real balls and intelligence.
Farage knows he will never get the job leading us out as he is considered a joke, The EU would slughter us in the exit agreements with him at the helm.
The fact 30% of the country agrees with clowns like this pretty much sums up the UK in a nut shell
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On June 26 2016 07:42 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 07:10 Gorsameth wrote:On June 26 2016 07:03 Plansix wrote:
Or the rest of the EU will watch what happens as the UK it slips into back recession, UK citizens lose their jobs in the EU, are forced to move home, investment in the UK decreases across the board and all the other nations in the EU will say "nope, we lose more than the nothing we gain from leaving the EU."
I doubt a lot of nations are gong too be super excited for the uncertainty and instability that leaving the EU will bring. Also who else has the economy to be able to leave? France/Germany, who else? Spain? Italy? Greece? HA Netherlands? No way. I think any net contributor would benefit by leaving, off the top of my head that would include France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Italy, Spain...
Do you have anything to support your claims that leaving is better? I am curious to see how leaving the single market is better economically for all involved.
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On June 26 2016 18:50 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 17:22 NukeD wrote:
I watched a few Nigel Farage videos where he gives speeches in EU parliament and I have to say I am impressed. Especially where he calls out Juncker and the EU army plans. Thats some NWO sh** right there. Hes an idiot and every knows it , he has failed 8 times in a row to be an MP and is a racist . His party UKIP is the polite face of the National Front, an entity who belives in racal purity Anyone impressed by this clown has very low standards indeed. Hes laughing himself to death at the biggest con job in the history of UK politics. Anyone can stand up and shout " we can do this and we can do that ". But actually doing it is left to people with real balls and intelligence. Farage knows he will never get the job leading us out as he is considered a joke, The EU would slughter us in the exit agreements with him at the helm. The fact 30% of the country agrees with clowns like this pretty much sums up the UK in a nut shell
I only watched a few youtube videos of his speeches and he was logical, coherent and on point. Obviously I am not at all familliar with this guy other than those few vids so ye, you might be right.
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This really is the most extraordinary time in British politics even forgetting we about to leave the EU.
A PM who miraculously won a majority only a year ago has resigned and we are going to have a zombie government until at least October with the leading party in a likely bitter fight. The chancellor hasn't been seen by anyone since thursday, he is probably the most important person in this time with the financial instability and he is nowhere to be seen.
The labour party has now gone into meltdown over Corbyn and it looks like he is going to do his best to fight back, and there is even talk of a new "real" labour party of anti corbyn MPs being set up if they can't remove him.
The SNP have used the referendum result to renew calls for independence of Scotland and there is a real possibility of it happening as the SNP are really the only party who have any leadership or coherent message and strategy at the moment. There is also talk of a united ireland because of the referendum result.
As for the remaining political parties UKIP has been in a quiet civil war since 2015 with the Faragists against the moderates of Carswell, Evans and co. The Lib Dems and greens are essentially irrelevant and will get very little air time considering the rest of the chaos.
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On June 26 2016 07:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 07:30 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:29 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok. Yes that is exactly what I said. Wait no it isn't and you know it isn't. You should also probably look at how Leave cleaned up with working class Labour voters in many areas across England especially northeast England. If they had voted the way Labour voters usually vote Remain would have won. And of course Leave did very strongly with working class Tory voters. Which side's campaigners were fervent believers in technocratic globalism? Remain, of course. It's not even up for debate that the EU places various levels of unelected bureaucracy in between the people and policy, with little recourse for the people regarding policy decisions they dislike. The debate is whether that is a bad thing or not. Who has been blamed for Remain losing by disappointed Remain voters and campaigners on Twitter and in a thousand opinion columns since Friday morning? The ignorant and probably racist white working class. He has a point there, you were being to general before, while this is all true it is just a vehicle for latent bigotry and xenophobia. Disappointed Remain supporters haven't been making many distinctions as to who is to blame for their loss. When Polly Toynbee lays out 1000 words breaking down in minute detail the demographics of the vote so no working class Remain voter is unfairly maligned, I'll be sure to follow suit until the truth of class and cultural division in Britain (and across the West) is obscured in a dirty puddle of exactitude. Telling people that their motivations are simply bigoted and xenophobic failed. Browbeating of that nature failed. It's almost Puritan in nature, the strategy of using virtue-signaling and public shaming to gain or reinforce political outcomes. Calling Leave supporters bigots and xenophobes did not reduce Leave's appeal, which leaves two conclusions to choose from: bigotry and xenophobia has great appeal and motivational power among the masses, or they are not quite as motivated by bigotry and xenophobia as asserted. It might be time for a new strategy, one that doesn't insist on dismissing political disagreement as being caused by Unacceptable Beliefs. Racism is the kiss of death in modern Western politics. Trying to take advantage of that by casting political opponents as motivated by racism failed to work this time, not enough people believed it. Not that that was the main pillar of the Remain strategy, but it certainly was something many Remain supporters could not resist from doing. And still can't. If these people really are racists, the thing to do is to persuade them that racism is wrong, not browbeat them about it. That makes them defensive and angry. And when they really aren't racist (which they aren't, most of them anyway), it makes them even more defensive and even more angry.
I disagree, its 2016, you shouldnt have to teach someone that racist behaviour is wrong. Looking at the incidents coming out of the UK the past few days its very clear that leave winning has made it ok to publicly chide immigrants and insult them.
Whatever problem for the British, good luck.
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Leave voters in a nutshell.
2007: "Bankers ruined our economy"
2015: "Immigrants are ruining our economy"
2016: "Finally, we took control & ruined our OWN economy"
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On June 26 2016 20:00 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 07:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:30 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:29 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok. Yes that is exactly what I said. Wait no it isn't and you know it isn't. You should also probably look at how Leave cleaned up with working class Labour voters in many areas across England especially northeast England. If they had voted the way Labour voters usually vote Remain would have won. And of course Leave did very strongly with working class Tory voters. Which side's campaigners were fervent believers in technocratic globalism? Remain, of course. It's not even up for debate that the EU places various levels of unelected bureaucracy in between the people and policy, with little recourse for the people regarding policy decisions they dislike. The debate is whether that is a bad thing or not. Who has been blamed for Remain losing by disappointed Remain voters and campaigners on Twitter and in a thousand opinion columns since Friday morning? The ignorant and probably racist white working class. He has a point there, you were being to general before, while this is all true it is just a vehicle for latent bigotry and xenophobia. Disappointed Remain supporters haven't been making many distinctions as to who is to blame for their loss. When Polly Toynbee lays out 1000 words breaking down in minute detail the demographics of the vote so no working class Remain voter is unfairly maligned, I'll be sure to follow suit until the truth of class and cultural division in Britain (and across the West) is obscured in a dirty puddle of exactitude. Telling people that their motivations are simply bigoted and xenophobic failed. Browbeating of that nature failed. It's almost Puritan in nature, the strategy of using virtue-signaling and public shaming to gain or reinforce political outcomes. Calling Leave supporters bigots and xenophobes did not reduce Leave's appeal, which leaves two conclusions to choose from: bigotry and xenophobia has great appeal and motivational power among the masses, or they are not quite as motivated by bigotry and xenophobia as asserted. It might be time for a new strategy, one that doesn't insist on dismissing political disagreement as being caused by Unacceptable Beliefs. Racism is the kiss of death in modern Western politics. Trying to take advantage of that by casting political opponents as motivated by racism failed to work this time, not enough people believed it. Not that that was the main pillar of the Remain strategy, but it certainly was something many Remain supporters could not resist from doing. And still can't. If these people really are racists, the thing to do is to persuade them that racism is wrong, not browbeat them about it. That makes them defensive and angry. And when they really aren't racist (which they aren't, most of them anyway), it makes them even more defensive and even more angry. I disagree, its 2016, you shouldnt have to teach someone that racist behaviour is wrong. Looking at the incidents coming out of the UK the past few days its very clear that leave winning has made it ok to publicly chide immigrants and insult them. Whatever problem for the British, good luck.
I think you are misled if you think all Leave voters are racists. Even those who are against "unlimited immigrations" are not necessarily racists or xenophobic. This sentiment, actually, does not help understand why they voted/think they way they do because it oversimplifies and denies any legit concerns those people have.
Ive stumbled across a good FB post by Vincent Bevins
source: https://www.facebook.com/vincent.bevins/posts/10105426634702363?pnref=story
"No one asked me, but here are my thoughts on the tragedy of the Brexit vote -
Both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very, wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for thirty years.
Questions such as - Who are the losers of globalization, and how can we spread the benefits to them and ease the transition? Is it fair that the rich can capture almost all the gains of open borders and trade, or should the process be more equitable? Can we really sustainably create a media structure that only hires kids from top universities (and, moreover, those prick graduates that can basically afford to work for free for the first 5-10 years) who are totally ignorant of regular people, if not outright disdainful of them? Do we actually have democracy, or do banks just decide? Immigration is good for the vast majority, but for the very small minority who see pressure on their wages, should we help them, or do they just get ignored?
Since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt. It seems in both cases (Trumpism and Brexit), many voters are motivated not so much by whether they think the projects will actually work, but more by their desire to say FUCK YOU to people like me (and probably you).
The leaders of these movements (Trumpstick, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage) have acted cynically for their own benefit. They've been willing to stir division and nationalism. And some of their supporters are real racists. The only solution for that small minority is to be crushed and thrown into the dustbin of history. But I refuse to believe this is the case for the larger group of supporters, that is, half of the UK or almost half of the US. They have some legitimate concerns, and the only outlet to vent they were offered was a terrible one.
If we want to move forward productively from these historical shocks (and please, let's try to do that), rich world urban dickheads (like me) need to recognize that they are not the only people on the planet with views worth listening to."
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On June 26 2016 20:28 tenacity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 20:00 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:30 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:29 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok. Yes that is exactly what I said. Wait no it isn't and you know it isn't. You should also probably look at how Leave cleaned up with working class Labour voters in many areas across England especially northeast England. If they had voted the way Labour voters usually vote Remain would have won. And of course Leave did very strongly with working class Tory voters. Which side's campaigners were fervent believers in technocratic globalism? Remain, of course. It's not even up for debate that the EU places various levels of unelected bureaucracy in between the people and policy, with little recourse for the people regarding policy decisions they dislike. The debate is whether that is a bad thing or not. Who has been blamed for Remain losing by disappointed Remain voters and campaigners on Twitter and in a thousand opinion columns since Friday morning? The ignorant and probably racist white working class. He has a point there, you were being to general before, while this is all true it is just a vehicle for latent bigotry and xenophobia. Disappointed Remain supporters haven't been making many distinctions as to who is to blame for their loss. When Polly Toynbee lays out 1000 words breaking down in minute detail the demographics of the vote so no working class Remain voter is unfairly maligned, I'll be sure to follow suit until the truth of class and cultural division in Britain (and across the West) is obscured in a dirty puddle of exactitude. Telling people that their motivations are simply bigoted and xenophobic failed. Browbeating of that nature failed. It's almost Puritan in nature, the strategy of using virtue-signaling and public shaming to gain or reinforce political outcomes. Calling Leave supporters bigots and xenophobes did not reduce Leave's appeal, which leaves two conclusions to choose from: bigotry and xenophobia has great appeal and motivational power among the masses, or they are not quite as motivated by bigotry and xenophobia as asserted. It might be time for a new strategy, one that doesn't insist on dismissing political disagreement as being caused by Unacceptable Beliefs. Racism is the kiss of death in modern Western politics. Trying to take advantage of that by casting political opponents as motivated by racism failed to work this time, not enough people believed it. Not that that was the main pillar of the Remain strategy, but it certainly was something many Remain supporters could not resist from doing. And still can't. If these people really are racists, the thing to do is to persuade them that racism is wrong, not browbeat them about it. That makes them defensive and angry. And when they really aren't racist (which they aren't, most of them anyway), it makes them even more defensive and even more angry. I disagree, its 2016, you shouldnt have to teach someone that racist behaviour is wrong. Looking at the incidents coming out of the UK the past few days its very clear that leave winning has made it ok to publicly chide immigrants and insult them. Whatever problem for the British, good luck. I think you are misled if you think all Leave voters are racists. Even those who are against "unlimited immigrations" are not necessarily racists or xenophobic. This sentiment, actually, does not help understand why they voted/think they way they do because it oversimplifies and denies any legit concerns those people have. Ive stumbled across a good FB post by Vincent Bevins source: https://www.facebook.com/vincent.bevins/posts/10105426634702363?pnref=story"No one asked me, but here are my thoughts on the tragedy of the Brexit vote - Both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very, wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for thirty years. Questions such as - Who are the losers of globalization, and how can we spread the benefits to them and ease the transition? Is it fair that the rich can capture almost all the gains of open borders and trade, or should the process be more equitable? Can we really sustainably create a media structure that only hires kids from top universities (and, moreover, those prick graduates that can basically afford to work for free for the first 5-10 years) who are totally ignorant of regular people, if not outright disdainful of them? Do we actually have democracy, or do banks just decide? Immigration is good for the vast majority, but for the very small minority who see pressure on their wages, should we help them, or do they just get ignored? Since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt. It seems in both cases (Trumpism and Brexit), many voters are motivated not so much by whether they think the projects will actually work, but more by their desire to say FUCK YOU to people like me (and probably you). The leaders of these movements (Trumpstick, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage) have acted cynically for their own benefit. They've been willing to stir division and nationalism. And some of their supporters are real racists. The only solution for that small minority is to be crushed and thrown into the dustbin of history. But I refuse to believe this is the case for the larger group of supporters, that is, half of the UK or almost half of the US. They have some legitimate concerns, and the only outlet to vent they were offered was a terrible one. If we want to move forward productively from these historical shocks (and please, let's try to do that), rich world urban dickheads (like me) need to recognize that they are not the only people on the planet with views worth listening to."
Im sorry did I save that all leave voters were racists ? I dont get why people keep strawmanning that and then provide a history lesson blaming the elites like we dont know whats going on.
I never said that the leave people didnt have legitimate concerns. They absolutely do. Otherwise the campaign wouldnt exist.
Either way misdirecting your grievances means your economic situation remains the same, you wages will remain pressured and you will now be a benchmark of what not to do. Which is unfortunate but I guess thats how it is.
It doesnt matter to me either way. I live in Canada and we dont have this problem. And its not like Canada doesnt have problems, it does just as many as the UK and even more than the US but atleast C anadians rejected xenophobic politics and understood what was causing their problems so you can see how its easy to be critical.
Good luck.
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So has anyone sighted George Osborne?
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On June 26 2016 20:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So has anyone sighted George Osborne?
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So I'm guessing this might be one of the reasons that there is a revolt in the Labour party?
LONDON — Jeremy Corbyn never budged. Not even Barack Obama could have convinced the Labour leader to help David Cameron make the case against Brexit.
Less than a month before the historic EU referendum, the team assembled by Cameron to keep Britain in the European Union was worried about wavering Labour voters and frustrated by the opposition leader’s lukewarm support. Remain campaign operatives floated a plan to convince Corbyn to make a public gesture of cross-party unity by appearing in public with the prime minister. Polling showed this would be the “number one” play to reach Labour voters.
Senior staff from the campaign “begged” Corbyn to do a rally with the prime minister, according to a senior source who was close to the Remain campaign. Corbyn wanted nothing to do with the Tory leader, no matter what was at stake. Gordon Brown, the Labour prime minister whom Cameron vanquished in 2010, was sent to plead with Corbyn to change his mind. Corbyn wouldn’t. Senior figures in the Remain camp, who included Cameron’s trusted communications chief Craig Oliver and Jim Messina, President Obama’s campaign guru, were furious.
Even at more basic levels of campaigning, Labour were refusing to cooperate. The party would not share its voter registration lists with Stronger In, fearing the Tories would steal the information for the next general election. “Our data is our data,” one senior Labour source said when asked about the allegation.
In desperation, the Remain strategists discussed reaching out to the White House to intervene directly. Obama had met Corbyn during a trip to London in April, when the American president argued forcefully for Remain. They wondered: Maybe Obama could call the Labour leader and convince him to campaign with Cameron?
Don’t bother, Labour aides told them. Nobody was going to coax their boss into sharing a public platform with Cameron. The idea was dropped before it reached the White House.
Source
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 26 2016 20:28 tenacity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 20:00 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:30 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:29 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok. Yes that is exactly what I said. Wait no it isn't and you know it isn't. You should also probably look at how Leave cleaned up with working class Labour voters in many areas across England especially northeast England. If they had voted the way Labour voters usually vote Remain would have won. And of course Leave did very strongly with working class Tory voters. Which side's campaigners were fervent believers in technocratic globalism? Remain, of course. It's not even up for debate that the EU places various levels of unelected bureaucracy in between the people and policy, with little recourse for the people regarding policy decisions they dislike. The debate is whether that is a bad thing or not. Who has been blamed for Remain losing by disappointed Remain voters and campaigners on Twitter and in a thousand opinion columns since Friday morning? The ignorant and probably racist white working class. He has a point there, you were being to general before, while this is all true it is just a vehicle for latent bigotry and xenophobia. Disappointed Remain supporters haven't been making many distinctions as to who is to blame for their loss. When Polly Toynbee lays out 1000 words breaking down in minute detail the demographics of the vote so no working class Remain voter is unfairly maligned, I'll be sure to follow suit until the truth of class and cultural division in Britain (and across the West) is obscured in a dirty puddle of exactitude. Telling people that their motivations are simply bigoted and xenophobic failed. Browbeating of that nature failed. It's almost Puritan in nature, the strategy of using virtue-signaling and public shaming to gain or reinforce political outcomes. Calling Leave supporters bigots and xenophobes did not reduce Leave's appeal, which leaves two conclusions to choose from: bigotry and xenophobia has great appeal and motivational power among the masses, or they are not quite as motivated by bigotry and xenophobia as asserted. It might be time for a new strategy, one that doesn't insist on dismissing political disagreement as being caused by Unacceptable Beliefs. Racism is the kiss of death in modern Western politics. Trying to take advantage of that by casting political opponents as motivated by racism failed to work this time, not enough people believed it. Not that that was the main pillar of the Remain strategy, but it certainly was something many Remain supporters could not resist from doing. And still can't. If these people really are racists, the thing to do is to persuade them that racism is wrong, not browbeat them about it. That makes them defensive and angry. And when they really aren't racist (which they aren't, most of them anyway), it makes them even more defensive and even more angry. I disagree, its 2016, you shouldnt have to teach someone that racist behaviour is wrong. Looking at the incidents coming out of the UK the past few days its very clear that leave winning has made it ok to publicly chide immigrants and insult them. Whatever problem for the British, good luck. I think you are misled if you think all Leave voters are racists. Even those who are against "unlimited immigrations" are not necessarily racists or xenophobic. This sentiment, actually, does not help understand why they voted/think they way they do because it oversimplifies and denies any legit concerns those people have. Ive stumbled across a good FB post by Vincent Bevins source: https://www.facebook.com/vincent.bevins/posts/10105426634702363?pnref=story"No one asked me, but here are my thoughts on the tragedy of the Brexit vote - Both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very, wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for thirty years. Questions such as - Who are the losers of globalization, and how can we spread the benefits to them and ease the transition? Is it fair that the rich can capture almost all the gains of open borders and trade, or should the process be more equitable? Can we really sustainably create a media structure that only hires kids from top universities (and, moreover, those prick graduates that can basically afford to work for free for the first 5-10 years) who are totally ignorant of regular people, if not outright disdainful of them? Do we actually have democracy, or do banks just decide? Immigration is good for the vast majority, but for the very small minority who see pressure on their wages, should we help them, or do they just get ignored? Since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt. It seems in both cases (Trumpism and Brexit), many voters are motivated not so much by whether they think the projects will actually work, but more by their desire to say FUCK YOU to people like me (and probably you). The leaders of these movements (Trumpstick, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage) have acted cynically for their own benefit. They've been willing to stir division and nationalism. And some of their supporters are real racists. The only solution for that small minority is to be crushed and thrown into the dustbin of history. But I refuse to believe this is the case for the larger group of supporters, that is, half of the UK or almost half of the US. They have some legitimate concerns, and the only outlet to vent they were offered was a terrible one. If we want to move forward productively from these historical shocks (and please, let's try to do that), rich world urban dickheads (like me) need to recognize that they are not the only people on the planet with views worth listening to."
Very good post, thank you for sharing it with us
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On June 26 2016 20:32 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 20:28 tenacity wrote:On June 26 2016 20:00 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:30 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:29 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok. Yes that is exactly what I said. Wait no it isn't and you know it isn't. You should also probably look at how Leave cleaned up with working class Labour voters in many areas across England especially northeast England. If they had voted the way Labour voters usually vote Remain would have won. And of course Leave did very strongly with working class Tory voters. Which side's campaigners were fervent believers in technocratic globalism? Remain, of course. It's not even up for debate that the EU places various levels of unelected bureaucracy in between the people and policy, with little recourse for the people regarding policy decisions they dislike. The debate is whether that is a bad thing or not. Who has been blamed for Remain losing by disappointed Remain voters and campaigners on Twitter and in a thousand opinion columns since Friday morning? The ignorant and probably racist white working class. He has a point there, you were being to general before, while this is all true it is just a vehicle for latent bigotry and xenophobia. Disappointed Remain supporters haven't been making many distinctions as to who is to blame for their loss. When Polly Toynbee lays out 1000 words breaking down in minute detail the demographics of the vote so no working class Remain voter is unfairly maligned, I'll be sure to follow suit until the truth of class and cultural division in Britain (and across the West) is obscured in a dirty puddle of exactitude. Telling people that their motivations are simply bigoted and xenophobic failed. Browbeating of that nature failed. It's almost Puritan in nature, the strategy of using virtue-signaling and public shaming to gain or reinforce political outcomes. Calling Leave supporters bigots and xenophobes did not reduce Leave's appeal, which leaves two conclusions to choose from: bigotry and xenophobia has great appeal and motivational power among the masses, or they are not quite as motivated by bigotry and xenophobia as asserted. It might be time for a new strategy, one that doesn't insist on dismissing political disagreement as being caused by Unacceptable Beliefs. Racism is the kiss of death in modern Western politics. Trying to take advantage of that by casting political opponents as motivated by racism failed to work this time, not enough people believed it. Not that that was the main pillar of the Remain strategy, but it certainly was something many Remain supporters could not resist from doing. And still can't. If these people really are racists, the thing to do is to persuade them that racism is wrong, not browbeat them about it. That makes them defensive and angry. And when they really aren't racist (which they aren't, most of them anyway), it makes them even more defensive and even more angry. I disagree, its 2016, you shouldnt have to teach someone that racist behaviour is wrong. Looking at the incidents coming out of the UK the past few days its very clear that leave winning has made it ok to publicly chide immigrants and insult them. Whatever problem for the British, good luck. I think you are misled if you think all Leave voters are racists. Even those who are against "unlimited immigrations" are not necessarily racists or xenophobic. This sentiment, actually, does not help understand why they voted/think they way they do because it oversimplifies and denies any legit concerns those people have. Ive stumbled across a good FB post by Vincent Bevins source: https://www.facebook.com/vincent.bevins/posts/10105426634702363?pnref=story"No one asked me, but here are my thoughts on the tragedy of the Brexit vote - Both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very, wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for thirty years. Questions such as - Who are the losers of globalization, and how can we spread the benefits to them and ease the transition? Is it fair that the rich can capture almost all the gains of open borders and trade, or should the process be more equitable? Can we really sustainably create a media structure that only hires kids from top universities (and, moreover, those prick graduates that can basically afford to work for free for the first 5-10 years) who are totally ignorant of regular people, if not outright disdainful of them? Do we actually have democracy, or do banks just decide? Immigration is good for the vast majority, but for the very small minority who see pressure on their wages, should we help them, or do they just get ignored? Since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt. It seems in both cases (Trumpism and Brexit), many voters are motivated not so much by whether they think the projects will actually work, but more by their desire to say FUCK YOU to people like me (and probably you). The leaders of these movements (Trumpstick, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage) have acted cynically for their own benefit. They've been willing to stir division and nationalism. And some of their supporters are real racists. The only solution for that small minority is to be crushed and thrown into the dustbin of history. But I refuse to believe this is the case for the larger group of supporters, that is, half of the UK or almost half of the US. They have some legitimate concerns, and the only outlet to vent they were offered was a terrible one. If we want to move forward productively from these historical shocks (and please, let's try to do that), rich world urban dickheads (like me) need to recognize that they are not the only people on the planet with views worth listening to." Im sorry did I save that all leave voters were racists ? I dont get why people keep strawmanning that and then provide a history lesson blaming the elites like we dont know whats going on. I never said that the leave people didnt have legitimate concerns. They absolutely do. Otherwise the campaign wouldnt exist. Either way misdirecting your grievances means your economic situation remains the same, you wages will remain pressured and you will now be a benchmark of what not to do. Which is unfortunate but I guess thats how it is. It doesnt matter to me either way. I live in Canada and we dont have this problem. And its not like Canada doesnt have problems, it does just as many as the UK and even more than the US but atleast C anadians rejected xenophobic politics and understood what was causing their problems so you can see how its easy to be critical. Good luck.
Alright, I apologize for having used you as an example of many "Remain"- Voters. I just feel it's a common reaction of many of them.
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On June 26 2016 21:15 Sent. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 26 2016 20:28 tenacity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 20:00 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:30 Rebs wrote:On June 26 2016 07:29 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 26 2016 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok. Yes that is exactly what I said. Wait no it isn't and you know it isn't. You should also probably look at how Leave cleaned up with working class Labour voters in many areas across England especially northeast England. If they had voted the way Labour voters usually vote Remain would have won. And of course Leave did very strongly with working class Tory voters. Which side's campaigners were fervent believers in technocratic globalism? Remain, of course. It's not even up for debate that the EU places various levels of unelected bureaucracy in between the people and policy, with little recourse for the people regarding policy decisions they dislike. The debate is whether that is a bad thing or not. Who has been blamed for Remain losing by disappointed Remain voters and campaigners on Twitter and in a thousand opinion columns since Friday morning? The ignorant and probably racist white working class. He has a point there, you were being to general before, while this is all true it is just a vehicle for latent bigotry and xenophobia. Disappointed Remain supporters haven't been making many distinctions as to who is to blame for their loss. When Polly Toynbee lays out 1000 words breaking down in minute detail the demographics of the vote so no working class Remain voter is unfairly maligned, I'll be sure to follow suit until the truth of class and cultural division in Britain (and across the West) is obscured in a dirty puddle of exactitude. Telling people that their motivations are simply bigoted and xenophobic failed. Browbeating of that nature failed. It's almost Puritan in nature, the strategy of using virtue-signaling and public shaming to gain or reinforce political outcomes. Calling Leave supporters bigots and xenophobes did not reduce Leave's appeal, which leaves two conclusions to choose from: bigotry and xenophobia has great appeal and motivational power among the masses, or they are not quite as motivated by bigotry and xenophobia as asserted. It might be time for a new strategy, one that doesn't insist on dismissing political disagreement as being caused by Unacceptable Beliefs. Racism is the kiss of death in modern Western politics. Trying to take advantage of that by casting political opponents as motivated by racism failed to work this time, not enough people believed it. Not that that was the main pillar of the Remain strategy, but it certainly was something many Remain supporters could not resist from doing. And still can't. If these people really are racists, the thing to do is to persuade them that racism is wrong, not browbeat them about it. That makes them defensive and angry. And when they really aren't racist (which they aren't, most of them anyway), it makes them even more defensive and even more angry. I disagree, its 2016, you shouldnt have to teach someone that racist behaviour is wrong. Looking at the incidents coming out of the UK the past few days its very clear that leave winning has made it ok to publicly chide immigrants and insult them. Whatever problem for the British, good luck. I think you are misled if you think all Leave voters are racists. Even those who are against "unlimited immigrations" are not necessarily racists or xenophobic. This sentiment, actually, does not help understand why they voted/think they way they do because it oversimplifies and denies any legit concerns those people have. Ive stumbled across a good FB post by Vincent Bevins source: https://www.facebook.com/vincent.bevins/posts/10105426634702363?pnref=story"No one asked me, but here are my thoughts on the tragedy of the Brexit vote - Both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very, wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for thirty years. Questions such as - Who are the losers of globalization, and how can we spread the benefits to them and ease the transition? Is it fair that the rich can capture almost all the gains of open borders and trade, or should the process be more equitable? Can we really sustainably create a media structure that only hires kids from top universities (and, moreover, those prick graduates that can basically afford to work for free for the first 5-10 years) who are totally ignorant of regular people, if not outright disdainful of them? Do we actually have democracy, or do banks just decide? Immigration is good for the vast majority, but for the very small minority who see pressure on their wages, should we help them, or do they just get ignored? Since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt. It seems in both cases (Trumpism and Brexit), many voters are motivated not so much by whether they think the projects will actually work, but more by their desire to say FUCK YOU to people like me (and probably you). The leaders of these movements (Trumpstick, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage) have acted cynically for their own benefit. They've been willing to stir division and nationalism. And some of their supporters are real racists. The only solution for that small minority is to be crushed and thrown into the dustbin of history. But I refuse to believe this is the case for the larger group of supporters, that is, half of the UK or almost half of the US. They have some legitimate concerns, and the only outlet to vent they were offered was a terrible one. If we want to move forward productively from these historical shocks (and please, let's try to do that), rich world urban dickheads (like me) need to recognize that they are not the only people on the planet with views worth listening to." Very good post, thank you for sharing it with us
Yes, well said. It was not only a "no to EU", it was also the "Fuck you" to the elites. The problem is that it will result in a tragic economic development and all the costs of this development will be paid by the people, who were protesting against the elites. As always.
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One thing that remain voters dont understand is that if you stay its not that you ll have a stable situation and the things will be as it is, the unification of europe will continue.With remain you agree that you ll go to the direction in the end you lose everything and you reach a point that you cant even vote to leave again even if you want to.The european mafia wont stop until take over all the power from every country.
The older generations saved their children from the train that leads to Dachau and Auschwitz the parthenons of germany.
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It took a couple days, but we got to Godwin.
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On June 26 2016 20:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:So I'm guessing this might be one of the reasons that there is a revolt in the Labour party? Show nested quote +LONDON — Jeremy Corbyn never budged. Not even Barack Obama could have convinced the Labour leader to help David Cameron make the case against Brexit.
Less than a month before the historic EU referendum, the team assembled by Cameron to keep Britain in the European Union was worried about wavering Labour voters and frustrated by the opposition leader’s lukewarm support. Remain campaign operatives floated a plan to convince Corbyn to make a public gesture of cross-party unity by appearing in public with the prime minister. Polling showed this would be the “number one” play to reach Labour voters.
Senior staff from the campaign “begged” Corbyn to do a rally with the prime minister, according to a senior source who was close to the Remain campaign. Corbyn wanted nothing to do with the Tory leader, no matter what was at stake. Gordon Brown, the Labour prime minister whom Cameron vanquished in 2010, was sent to plead with Corbyn to change his mind. Corbyn wouldn’t. Senior figures in the Remain camp, who included Cameron’s trusted communications chief Craig Oliver and Jim Messina, President Obama’s campaign guru, were furious.
Even at more basic levels of campaigning, Labour were refusing to cooperate. The party would not share its voter registration lists with Stronger In, fearing the Tories would steal the information for the next general election. “Our data is our data,” one senior Labour source said when asked about the allegation.
In desperation, the Remain strategists discussed reaching out to the White House to intervene directly. Obama had met Corbyn during a trip to London in April, when the American president argued forcefully for Remain. They wondered: Maybe Obama could call the Labour leader and convince him to campaign with Cameron?
Don’t bother, Labour aides told them. Nobody was going to coax their boss into sharing a public platform with Cameron. The idea was dropped before it reached the White House. Source
Good article thanks.
I think it's pretty clear that Corbyn isn't very pro EU. If what the article says is true then the rest of the MPs losing confidence in him makes sense to me.
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EPT
