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Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
June 25 2016 20:33 GMT
#3241
On June 26 2016 05:24 Reaps wrote:
Petition at 2 million now, i'm actually curious if they will risk doing a second referendum.


2 million signatures signed mostly by people who didn't bother to vote in the first place won't override a referendum where 33+ million votes were cast.
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6642 Posts
June 25 2016 20:42 GMT
#3242
On June 26 2016 05:24 Reaps wrote:
Petition at 2 million now, i'm actually curious if they will risk doing a second referendum.

Apparently over half the signatories aren't even from the UK, I think there's zero chance of it happening.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 25 2016 20:45 GMT
#3243
On June 26 2016 05:33 Zaros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2016 05:24 Reaps wrote:
Petition at 2 million now, i'm actually curious if they will risk doing a second referendum.


2 million signatures signed mostly by people who didn't bother to vote in the first place won't override a referendum where 33+ million votes were cast.

There is no way of knowing if you are right on that one and that is a massive numbers of signatures. But it won't matter because the EU isn't going to slow down the process. But by the end of this, I doubt the politicians who pushed for the leave will have any political capital left. The blow back and economic damage will be more than enough for that.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 25 2016 21:06 GMT
#3244
Nicola Sturgeon is to lobby EU member states directly for support in ensuring that Scotland can remain part of the bloc, after Scots voted emphatically against Brexit on Thursday.

The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh within the next two weeks in a bid to sidestep the UK government.

After Scotland voted 62% to 38% to stay in the EU, she said she planned to begin immediate discussions with the European commission to “protect Scotland’s relationship with the EU and our place in the single market”.

The first minister made the announcement after an emergency cabinet meeting on Saturday morning. She also said she would establish an advisory body of financial, legal and diplomatic experts who can advise her government on its options for retaining EU membership after Thursday’s UK-wide vote, by 52% to 48%, to leave the EU.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5226 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-25 21:30:35
June 25 2016 21:13 GMT
#3245
What monumentally stupid decision for England economically. Is it all going to be worth it to keep immigrants out?

On June 26 2016 02:30 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Is there any serious video that someone can link with arguements for remain?Everything i have seen so far is terror like the armagedon is coming or sentimental bullshits like we are better together, we dont want to be alone and the germans are our friends, we are giving our democracy and we take back cheap phonecalls and cheap airtickets.
I mean a calm video with arguments for remain like this
Brexit: Facts Not Fear


Why not just watch the value of the pound? And look at what the credit rating of England is... because those are objective facts, not just some silly video. Investors think it is a terrible choice clearly.

And already, both have taken a beating.

My dad's company has warehouses in London and ships stuff all over Europe. Now those warehouses have to move to a EU country, and it will cost England jobs. Companies from the US and Canada use the UK as a base (because people speak English) to operate their business across Europe. That is all changing because the very friendly EU trade laws that allow free trade to happen across the EU won't apply to England.

Foreign investment is going to go way down, the UK won't be able to negotiate deals as well as the EU, so the price of everything coming from outside the country will go up... And if Scotland and N. Ireland leave the UK, then it is done as a superpower.

But we'll see, time will answer whether or not this a good decision.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
June 25 2016 21:20 GMT
#3246


{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 25 2016 21:46 GMT
#3247
Put Miliband back in charge that dunce of a leader?
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
June 25 2016 21:50 GMT
#3248
On June 26 2016 06:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Put Miliband back in charge that dunce of a leader?


It will be Hilary Benn, John McDonnell, Yvette Cooper, Chuka Umuna, Dan Jarvis or Tom Watson as next labour leader. My guess would be Watson if he wants the job or Dan Jarvis.
phantomlancer23
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
733 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-25 21:58:36
June 25 2016 21:55 GMT
#3249
On June 26 2016 06:13 BronzeKnee wrote:
What monumentally stupid decision for England economically. Is it all going to be worth it to keep immigrants out?

Show nested quote +
On June 26 2016 02:30 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Is there any serious video that someone can link with arguements for remain?Everything i have seen so far is terror like the armagedon is coming or sentimental bullshits like we are better together, we dont want to be alone and the germans are our friends, we are giving our democracy and we take back cheap phonecalls and cheap airtickets.
I mean a calm video with arguments for remain like this
Brexit: Facts Not Fear


Why not just watch the value of the pound? And look at what the credit rating of England is... because those are objective facts, not just some silly video. Investors think it is a terrible choice clearly.

And already, both have taken a beating.

My dad's company has warehouses in London and ships stuff all over Europe. Now those warehouses have to move to a EU country, and it will cost England jobs. Companies from the US and Canada use the UK as a base (because people speak English) to operate their business across Europe. That is all changing because the very friendly EU trade laws that allow free trade to happen across the EU won't apply to England.

Foreign investment is going to go way down, the UK won't be able to negotiate deals as well as the EU, so the price of everything coming from outside the country will go up... And if Scotland and N. Ireland leave the UK, then it is done as a superpower.

But we'll see, time will answer whether or not this a good decision.


Every uncertainty does this, the fall of pound is only temporary and clearly the uncertainty will hit europe soon and hard as we all can see the referentums are coming boys!!.When England will be stable and europe will be in the colapsing process all the investors will find safe place in UK and pound will be as strong as they want it.
Its like to have chicken pox, so much younger you are better for you.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
June 25 2016 22:00 GMT
#3250
On June 26 2016 06:55 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2016 06:13 BronzeKnee wrote:
What monumentally stupid decision for England economically. Is it all going to be worth it to keep immigrants out?

On June 26 2016 02:30 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Is there any serious video that someone can link with arguements for remain?Everything i have seen so far is terror like the armagedon is coming or sentimental bullshits like we are better together, we dont want to be alone and the germans are our friends, we are giving our democracy and we take back cheap phonecalls and cheap airtickets.
I mean a calm video with arguments for remain like this
Brexit: Facts Not Fear


Why not just watch the value of the pound? And look at what the credit rating of England is... because those are objective facts, not just some silly video. Investors think it is a terrible choice clearly.

And already, both have taken a beating.

My dad's company has warehouses in London and ships stuff all over Europe. Now those warehouses have to move to a EU country, and it will cost England jobs. Companies from the US and Canada use the UK as a base (because people speak English) to operate their business across Europe. That is all changing because the very friendly EU trade laws that allow free trade to happen across the EU won't apply to England.

Foreign investment is going to go way down, the UK won't be able to negotiate deals as well as the EU, so the price of everything coming from outside the country will go up... And if Scotland and N. Ireland leave the UK, then it is done as a superpower.

But we'll see, time will answer whether or not this a good decision.


Every uncertainty does this, the fall of pound is only temporary and clearly the uncertainty will hit europe soon and hard as we all can see the referentums are coming boys!!.When England will be stable and europe will be in the colapsing process all the investors will find safe place in UK and pound will be as strong as they want it.
Its like to have chicken pox, so much younger you are better for you.





Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-25 22:04:42
June 25 2016 22:03 GMT
#3251
Or the rest of the EU will watch what happens as the UK it slips into back recession, UK citizens lose their jobs in the EU, are forced to move home, investment in the UK decreases across the board and all the other nations in the EU will say "nope, we lose more than the nothing we gain from leaving the EU."

I doubt a lot of nations are gong too be super excited for the uncertainty and instability that leaving the EU will bring.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22627 Posts
June 25 2016 22:10 GMT
#3252
On June 26 2016 07:03 Plansix wrote:
Or the rest of the EU will watch what happens as the UK it slips into back recession, UK citizens lose their jobs in the EU, are forced to move home, investment in the UK decreases across the board and all the other nations in the EU will say "nope, we lose more than the nothing we gain from leaving the EU."

I doubt a lot of nations are gong too be super excited for the uncertainty and instability that leaving the EU will bring.

Also who else has the economy to be able to leave? France/Germany, who else?
Spain? Italy? Greece? HA
Netherlands? No way.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5080 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-25 22:18:40
June 25 2016 22:11 GMT
#3253
The condescension train in the media shows no signs of stopping any time soon.

The idea that elitists being condescending towards the working class masses helped Leave win apparently has not occurred to the elitists yet. Show contempt and disdain for them, patronize them, tell them they're too ignorant (and, through implication, stupid) to have political power through democratic methods... and then be shocked and dismayed when they spit in your eye, and blame it on their ignorance (and again, through implication, stupidity). Or just blame it on them being racists. There is almost no self-reflection among Remain supporters as to why they lost. It's all because the other side is so bad. There is no respect for the common people. You don't even get the impression that the modern aristocracy wishes they could just do away with democracy, many of them come right out and say so.

Britain would be in the EU today if the concerns of Leave voters had been addressed respectfully years ago instead of mocked and dismissed. Pure hubris. Sooner or later, Nemesis always shows up in response to it.

On June 26 2016 07:03 Plansix wrote:
Or the rest of the EU will watch what happens as the UK it slips into back recession, UK citizens lose their jobs in the EU, are forced to move home, investment in the UK decreases across the board and all the other nations in the EU will say "nope, we lose more than the nothing we gain from leaving the EU."

I doubt a lot of nations are gong too be super excited for the uncertainty and instability that leaving the EU will bring.


There is decent support in France, Holland, etc. for holding referendums on the matter, which is a needed shift back towards democracy and away from authoritarian technocratism.

Assuming that people will vote based on economic fearmongering is a big part of what lost Remain the referendum.

Economic fearmongering didn't work in Britain, it might not work elsewhere. Thinking that the commoners are grubby, greedy little mindless consumerists who could be controlled by whistling a particular economic tune was another misconception among the elitists that hurt their ability to run a winning Remain campaign.

Condescension and not understanding the electorate (or deciding you don't have to because the electorate is made up of ignorant, stupid peasants) wins few elections anywhere.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 25 2016 22:12 GMT
#3254
Why not countries like Japan, South Korea, and the US would/will make trade deals with them if they left the EU. Not even mentioning the financial houses in said countries investments in say Africa etc.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-25 22:17:36
June 25 2016 22:15 GMT
#3255
On June 26 2016 07:11 DeepElemBlues wrote:
The condescension train in the media shows no signs of stopping any time soon.

The idea that elitists being condescending towards the working class masses helped Leave win apparently has not occurred to the elitists yet. Show contempt and disdain for them, patronize them, tell them they're too ignorant (and, through implication, stupid) to have political power through democratic methods... and then be shocked and dismayed when they spit in your eye, and blame it on their ignorance (and again, through implication, stupidity). Or just blame it on them being racists. There is almost no self-reflection among Remain supporters as to why they lost. It's all because the other side is so bad. There is no respect for the common people. You don't even get the impression that the modern aristocracy wishes they could just do away with democracy, many of them come right out and say so.

Britain would be in the EU today if the concerns of Leave voters had been addressed respectfully years ago instead of mocked and dismissed. Pure hubris. Sooner or later, Nemesis always shows up in response to it.


Yeah i totally agree. All of the bigotry and ignorance and such are rooted fundamentally in them being left out in the cold. If things are hunky dory no one feels like they need to blame the other

+ Show Spoiler +
this is sarcasm btw
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
June 25 2016 22:16 GMT
#3256
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5080 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-25 22:30:57
June 25 2016 22:29 GMT
#3257
On June 26 2016 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok.


Yes that is exactly what I said. Wait no it isn't and you know it isn't. You should also probably look at how Leave cleaned up with working class Labour voters in many areas across England especially northeast England. If they had voted the way Labour voters usually vote Remain would have won. And of course Leave did very strongly with working class Tory voters.

Which side's campaigners were fervent believers in technocratic globalism? Remain, of course. It's not even up for debate that the EU places various levels of unelected bureaucracy in between the people and policy, with little recourse for the people regarding policy decisions they dislike. The debate is whether that is a bad thing or not.

Who has been blamed for Remain losing by disappointed Remain voters and campaigners on Twitter and in a thousand opinion columns since Friday morning? The ignorant and probably racist white working class. Which, of course, in a country that is 90% white is a very large chunk of the electorate. Probably not a good idea to antagonize them all the time as has been happening for years now.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-25 22:32:46
June 25 2016 22:30 GMT
#3258
On June 26 2016 07:29 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2016 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So in your view, out of all the voters, the 52% leave voters are working class and the 48% remain voters are the modern aristocracy. Ok.


Yes that is exactly what I said. Wait no it isn't and you know it isn't. You should also probably look at how Leave cleaned up with working class Labour voters in many areas across England especially northeast England. If they had voted the way Labour voters usually vote Remain would have won. And of course Leave did very strongly with working class Tory voters.

Which side's campaigners were fervent believers in technocratic globalism? Remain, of course. It's not even up for debate that the EU places various levels of unelected bureaucracy in between the people and policy, with little recourse for the people regarding policy decisions they dislike. The debate is whether that is a bad thing or not.

Who has been blamed for Remain losing by disappointed Remain voters and campaigners on Twitter and in a thousand opinion columns since Friday morning? The ignorant and probably racist white working class.


You have a point there, you were being too general before. While this is all true it is just a vehicle for latent bigotry and xenophobia. People have every right to be upset and criticize the EU but then either Leaves intentions were corrupt or they are just plain xenophobic because they fought for the wrong causes as a solution to their problems.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
June 25 2016 22:34 GMT
#3259
I woudln't call the EU notably technocratic; parts are, but other parts aren't; in particular the EU commisioners are often just trash people who lost elections and couldn't manage to hold positions in their own country.

as to ignorance: it's a tough question; sometimes people really just are factually wrong, and calling them ignorant, while bad for unity and convincing them, may in fact be perfectly accurate.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10959 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-25 23:10:42
June 25 2016 22:35 GMT
#3260
Just check Switzerland during the (early) 90ies when it wasn't part of the EU-Market... It basically stagnated/grew slower than everyone else. That changed as soon as we could take part (whiteout being in the EU, but we have to pay and basically follow most EU rules including immigration laws and many payments).

If the UK gets out, and isn't willing or allowed to get a "Switzerland-Deal", which would run against everything the "leave" people wanted, the UK will hurt.
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