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On June 25 2016 19:02 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 18:59 deth2munkies wrote:
Waitaminute. This is a non-binding referendum that in fact :
1) Creates no duty by the government to initiate the legal process to withdraw from the EU.
2) Is likely to be followed by another referendum before any action is taken.
3) Doesn't legally change ANYTHING.
Why the fuck are people flipping out so much? I was kind of interested in the results until I actually read the article that makes these points and now I have no earthly idea why people actually care.
It's not legally binding, yes. It would be political suicide for anyone involved to ignore the results and stay in the EU anyways, so the Brexit will actually happen, because the majority of voters want it and a democratic system can't ignore the will of the people just because they don't like it. Another referendum won't happen, you can't vote until you get the result you want. You vote and you stick with the results.
A) Given how close it was and the ways voting districts work, it's entirely possible to get a result where the majority of elected legislators would vote to stay.
B) The article (and it's longer companion because that one is the short version) that I read seems to indicate that EU member nations tend to keep holding referendums until they get the "right" result, but I'm not entirely sure what he's referring to because I'm too tired to do more than cursory research at this point.
C) It's unclear to me (and to several of the experts I read on this) whether or not the PM alone can actually initiate Article 50 proceedings or whether he needs Parliament to pass something. If it's the latter, not only does the voting districts stuff come into play, but also the House of Lords can fuck with it (maybe not stop it, but at least fuck with it) and they don't have to care about the voters.
One other note: all this "financial markets are tanking so this must be a horrible idea" talk is utter bullshit. The markets always knee-jerk react to significant news before evening out once it's clear what that news actually means. It's possible everything goes back up or goes down even more once the ramifications become clearer, so it's far too early to declare it a failure based solely on the market response.
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On June 25 2016 19:18 Gorsameth wrote:Just to add, its 2 years after article 50 get invoked. Something I would not expect to happen until 2017.
Agree, February or January 2017.
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I think there are a lot of people who regret their protest votes. This is only anecdotal, but I think it's a fair assumption.
All the people I know who shared it are brexit voters in deep regret. Idiots.
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On June 25 2016 18:47 deadmau wrote:I'm so fucking happy you guys got your country back. #FREEDOM #LIBERTY Also, apologies for my dumbass President.
Another win for Obama's foreign policy.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
Agreed. What's done is done. Just gotta get on with it now.
Thoughts on the new leader? Seems like a 4-horse race to me between Boris Johnson, George Osborne , Theresa May and Michael Gove
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1 million is pretty insane though for a petition.
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Martin Schulz, the most democratic leader of the EU tell you to get the hell out as fast as possible...
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United Kingdom10003 Posts
On June 25 2016 20:13 1nobody wrote:
Martin Schulz, the most democratic leader of the EU tell you to get the hell out as fast as possible...
I agree with everything he said but for a politician he didn't half throw a hissy fit about it lol.
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apparently scotland has started preparation for a second referendum regarding their independence and started talks with the eu on their own.
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On June 25 2016 18:37 Toadesstern wrote:
Anyone know what the Italians point of view on Brexit and when to start negotiations is?
As far as I'm concerned the next big thing from our side of the channel is probably the meeting between Merkel, Hollande, Renzi and Tusk on Monday, right? Juncker (not in there) wants it to start as soon as possible as he has said countless of times and I'm fairly sure the same goes for Tusk.
I know Merkel wants it the way Cameron mentioned, no need to rush right now, just go at it slowly. I'd assume the same goes for Hollande but I have really no idea about Renzi.
Not really.
All foreign ministers of the founding nations just met and confirmed again, as it was said before (by Merkel as well), that the UK should get out as fast as possible and that there is no reason to delay it any further.
You will be hard pressed to find anyone in the EU who wants to go slowly. Get them out and get done with it.
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No need to rush it,go as slow as possible so the brits as well as Europe have the max amount of time to change their mind.
Maybe now the eu will reform,making it more democratic and giving more power back to the membership states. Maybe make the borders a bit stronger.
A completely new framework. Then the population in every country still member (including Britain because they are still in.) can vote on the new framework of the eu and decide if they want to go with it. Putting to rest once and for all the anti eu sentiment in many countries.
Well,one can dream.
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On June 25 2016 21:02 pmh wrote:
No need to rush it,go as slow as possible so the brits as well as Europe have the max amount of time to change their mind.
Maybe now the eu will reform,making it more democratic and giving more power back to the membership states. Maybe make the borders a bit stronger.
A completely new framework. Then the population in every country still member (including Britain because they are still in.) can vote on the new framework of the eu and decide if they want to go with it. Putting to rest once and for all the anti eu sentiment in many countries.
Well,one can dream.
It needs to be "rushed". Every second that passes between this referendum and the actual Brexit means less stability/more uncertainty for the markets, and that's not what anyone wants.
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Could someone from the UK please enlighten me whether there is a provision for a binding poll in any way in the UK or is a referendum like this (where all the parties agree that it should be binding) the most you can do?
Personally the only way back I would see in the Austrian system (different constitution, heck we actually have a written constitution) would be to negotiate fully now and then hold a second binding poll if that is truly what the people want.
On the topic in general my british friends (all between 30 and 40 years old) are pretty depressed and angry about this but they don't see a way out now that the result is in.
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United Kingdom10003 Posts
I really disagree with this.
I'm remain, but what is it people want to do,completely scupper the democratic process because they are right and the majority are wrong?
This is the problem with democracy in an age of morons, you have to live with their decisions because you can't always just put a smart guy in charge and hope for the best.
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On June 25 2016 21:02 pmh wrote:
No need to rush it,go as slow as possible so the brits as well as Europe have the max amount of time to change their mind.
Maybe now the eu will reform,making it more democratic and giving more power back to the membership states. Maybe make the borders a bit stronger.
A completely new framework. Then the population in every country still member (including Britain because they are still in.) can vote on the new framework of the eu and decide if they want to go with it. Putting to rest once and for all the anti eu sentiment in many countries.
Well,one can dream.
The thing is, that actually failed once before because a number of countries declined the framework and new treaties they wanted to pass.
Frankly the key problem of the EU is that they did not negotiate and pass a constitution for the entire thing before they actually expanded beyond 15 member states (frankly they should have done so before they actually grew beyond the 6 founding members).
Now any sweeping change to the whole can be vetoed by a single state and many "eastern" member states are perfectly fine with the way things are. They have a national bad guy for their own polls but they still get money from the EU (and yes I know that this is a very broad generalization but this is the UK politics thread not the "what is wrong the EU" thread, if someone wants to have a long and broad discussion about the EU I'm sure we can have that somewhere else).
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On June 25 2016 21:16 Jockmcplop wrote:I really disagree with this. I'm remain, but what is it people want to do,completely scupper the democratic process because they are right and the majority are wrong? This is the problem with democracy in an age of morons, you have to live with their decisions because you can't always just put a smart guy in charge and hope for the best.
Even so, Nigel Farage would have done the same if Remain had won. So, it's only fair if he recognises it's too tight to call it a victory.
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On June 25 2016 21:16 Jockmcplop wrote:I really disagree with this. I'm remain, but what is it people want to do,completely scupper the democratic process because they are right and the majority are wrong? This is the problem with democracy in an age of morons, you have to live with their decisions because you can't always just put a smart guy in charge and hope for the best.
Can you make such broad, sweeping changes off a mandate of 17 million people? Even when a similar number (including 16-18 year olds) disagree? To me it seems like a majority of 52% is not a large enough majority to leave the EU, though I suppose that should've been decided beforehand.
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On June 25 2016 20:21 hfglgg wrote:
apparently scotland has started preparation for a second referendum regarding their independence and started talks with the eu on their own.
Like I've said Scotland can "Prepare" for another referendum all they want. It's up to Westminster to let them hold it
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