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On June 24 2016 16:10 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 16:08 Toadesstern wrote:On June 24 2016 16:03 sharkie wrote:
I love how Remain supporters blame the Brexit for the pound's fall.
It's just the consequence of the Remain's campaign "UK will fall into a crisis if we leave the EU".
You reap what you sow... wat Remain campaign has created fear in people if Brexit would win. Well Brexit won and now these scared people sell their shares
and if I tell you that if you drive into a wall with your car you'll get hurt I am at fault for you getting hurt if you drive into a wall because it only happened because of my scaretactics?
EVERYONE, no matter on what side of the issue said it would happen. Chances are they were just right and people who trade that way to get lots and lots of money just know, at least somewhat, what they're doing. Like somewhat said, best case scenario for markets is stability and things not changing ever. So really not surprising
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On June 24 2016 16:12 Linear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 16:03 sharkie wrote:
I love how Remain supporters blame the Brexit for the pound's fall.
It's just the consequence of the Remain's campaign "UK will fall into a crisis if we leave the EU".
You reap what you sow... Or it could be that nearly every financial institute who did research into the matter before the result of the vote concluded it would have a negative impact?
As I said, creating fear and angst to convince people to vote remain.
And this stupid plan failed.
How the heck can you even research a thing as consequences of Britain leaving EU? It's just guessing.
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On June 24 2016 16:01 HolydaKing wrote:Very interesting link, thanks!
Graph just shows how out of touch London and the rich commuter towns are with the rest of England.London is sucking the wealth from the rest of the country, the process was rapidly accelerated under Thatcher.
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On June 24 2016 16:13 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 16:07 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 16:04 Wegandi wrote:On June 24 2016 15:53 maartendq wrote:On June 24 2016 15:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 24 2016 15:31 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 15:20 RvB wrote:On June 24 2016 15:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 24 2016 15:15 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 13:20 amazingxkcd wrote:
[quote]
could see Denmark and netherlands holding referendum if #Brexit wins Dutch person here, I have not heard anybody about a Dutch referendum for leaving the EU (except for our local Clown Trump), and after the disaster that was this years' referendum, I doubt it'd be easy to get going without changing some of those laws first (min 30% participation, it's very likely that rule completely fucked over the results of the Ukraine referendum) BBC says 54% of Dutch voters want to have a referendum. As to what shakes out between the UK and the EU, there is nothing keeping the UK and EU from coming to very friendly arrangements except human emotion. If the EU wants to act all butthurt and/or whoever runs the UK after Cameron wants to be a sore winner, then both sides could tit-for-tat each other and harm everyone. If they want to put their emotions aside, satisfactory arrangements for commerce between the UK and EU member states can and will be found. Our referendums are non binding though and the last one was a total disaster with 32% or something turning out. Technically speaking this UK referendum was non-binding in a similar manner. It is just that Cameron (et al.) 'made' it binding. As for the 32% turn out rate (was actually between 30-31% in the end, it was a result of the 30% treshhold that is in place to make the referendum 'official'. This made it so a lot of people didn't vote "strategically" so the referendum would be void. We ended up in a situation in which 60% voted "NO", but it is very very very very very likely the general population is in favor of the Ukraine agreement. Which is superawkward. Well i seriously doubt that an EU membership referendum would get only 30% turnout. The bigger the issue the more turnout yes? It's funny that people actually believe that big decisions like this should be left to a plebiscite. Stuff like this is way too big to be left to the people's gut feeling of the moment. In UK oriented countries (e.g. Common Law countries), the plebs decide life and death, which is the most important decision people can make. Granted, in the US you need unanimity, but it's also only 12 people...so...It just seems like people are in favor of democracy until democracy doesn't suit them anymore. Funny that. For all the shit the US gets, damn man, I didn't realize how much more we rely on the people to make most decisions than European countries. Honestly, though you're going to sit there and say that it shouldn't be up to the people who should for lack of better term "rule them" (oh how I wish no one was on the ballot...just once, please!)? That's what this was about. Still though, Just curious, can the people vote to change their constitutions (one of the most important part of voting imho in the US is for all the state amendment votes that come up), or do you leave that up to whatever political Government body? Consitutional changes in the Netherlands require 2 subsequent governments to have either a 66% of 75% In Favor vote, IIRC. Don't quote me on that, because it might be slightly different. Ah. Do the Netherlands have anything like the States here? We get to vote on amendments to our Constitutions pretty much every election. Here are our amendments to our Constitution up for vote: http://dos.elections.myflorida.com/initiatives/
The systems are somewhat confusing to me because I don't really understand the US system and am not 100% certain on what I said about the NL changes, so I don't want to make comments that are incorrect.
That being said, I don't recall people voting for anything but politicians in the past years, and we haven't had a referendum (before the Ukraine one) since 2005 (EU constitution)
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On June 24 2016 16:15 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 16:12 Linear wrote:On June 24 2016 16:03 sharkie wrote:
I love how Remain supporters blame the Brexit for the pound's fall.
It's just the consequence of the Remain's campaign "UK will fall into a crisis if we leave the EU".
You reap what you sow... Or it could be that nearly every financial institute who did research into the matter before the result of the vote concluded it would have a negative impact? As I said, creating fear and angst to convince people to vote remain. And this stupid plan failed. How the heck can you even research a thing as consequences of Britain leaving EU? It's just guessing.
TIL The Bloomberg stock ticker is an Illuminati conspiracy. Apparently investors across the world are willing to burn hundreds of billions of pounds just to fool the UK public.
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On June 24 2016 16:16 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Graph just shows how out of touch London and the rich commuter towns are with the rest of England.London is sucking the wealth from the rest of the country, the process was rapidly accelerated under Thatcher.
I found the education and Age graphs considerably mor einteresting.
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On June 24 2016 16:04 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 15:53 maartendq wrote:On June 24 2016 15:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 24 2016 15:31 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 15:20 RvB wrote:On June 24 2016 15:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 24 2016 15:15 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 13:20 amazingxkcd wrote:On June 24 2016 13:05 KwarK wrote:On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it. Two tier status might still be on the cards which is what most of Britain always wanted. We'll see what France and Germany do. could see Denmark and netherlands holding referendum if #Brexit wins Dutch person here, I have not heard anybody about a Dutch referendum for leaving the EU (except for our local Clown Trump), and after the disaster that was this years' referendum, I doubt it'd be easy to get going without changing some of those laws first (min 30% participation, it's very likely that rule completely fucked over the results of the Ukraine referendum) BBC says 54% of Dutch voters want to have a referendum. As to what shakes out between the UK and the EU, there is nothing keeping the UK and EU from coming to very friendly arrangements except human emotion. If the EU wants to act all butthurt and/or whoever runs the UK after Cameron wants to be a sore winner, then both sides could tit-for-tat each other and harm everyone. If they want to put their emotions aside, satisfactory arrangements for commerce between the UK and EU member states can and will be found. Our referendums are non binding though and the last one was a total disaster with 32% or something turning out. Technically speaking this UK referendum was non-binding in a similar manner. It is just that Cameron (et al.) 'made' it binding. As for the 32% turn out rate (was actually between 30-31% in the end, it was a result of the 30% treshhold that is in place to make the referendum 'official'. This made it so a lot of people didn't vote "strategically" so the referendum would be void. We ended up in a situation in which 60% voted "NO", but it is very very very very very likely the general population is in favor of the Ukraine agreement. Which is superawkward. Well i seriously doubt that an EU membership referendum would get only 30% turnout. The bigger the issue the more turnout yes? It's funny that people actually believe that big decisions like this should be left to a plebiscite. Stuff like this is way too big to be left to the people's gut feeling of the moment. In UK oriented countries (e.g. Common Law countries), the plebs decide life and death, which is the most important decision people can make. Granted, in the US you need unanimity, but it's also only 12 people...so...It just seems like people are in favor of democracy until democracy doesn't suit them anymore. Funny that. For all the shit the US gets, damn man, I didn't realize how much more we rely on the people to make most decisions than European countries. Honestly, though you're going to sit there and say that it shouldn't be up to the people who should for lack of better term "rule them" (oh how I wish no one was an option (Check box for Clinton, Check box for Trump, Check box for Johnson, Check box for Abolish this Office :p) on the ballot...just once, please!)? That's what this was about. Just curious, can the people vote to change their constitutions (one of the most important part of voting imho in the US is for all the state amendment votes that come up), or do you leave that up to whatever political Government body?
When did the US have a referendum for the last time though? I don't think there's much of a difference. In The Netherlands there are at least 5 different things which you can vote for (both 2 houses of parliament, regional government, local government, european parliament and the water board).
edit: for changing the constitution:
1. the government or 1 or more members of the parliament have to put in a proposal for constitutional change.
2. The eerste and tweede kamer of parliament have to accept the proposed change with a regular majority. It's called the first reading.
3. 2e kamer gets dismissed and new elections are called so the public can have a voice over the changes.
4. Proposal goes to the 2nd chamber again.
5. Both the eerste and tweede kamer have to accept the proposal with a 2/3rd majority
6. Signing of the law by the king and 1 or more ministers/ secrataries of state
7. Publication in the 'Staatsblad'. Changes will be in effect immediatly after this.
eerste kamer = senate
tweede kamer = House of representatives
www.rijksoverheid.nl
Dutch source sorry for that.
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On June 24 2016 16:14 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 16:10 sharkie wrote:On June 24 2016 16:08 Toadesstern wrote:On June 24 2016 16:03 sharkie wrote:
I love how Remain supporters blame the Brexit for the pound's fall.
It's just the consequence of the Remain's campaign "UK will fall into a crisis if we leave the EU".
You reap what you sow... wat Remain campaign has created fear in people if Brexit would win. Well Brexit won and now these scared people sell their shares A: A bunch of journalists managed to scare the biggest financial firms, brokerages, and investors in London into behaving irrationally. B: Finance is bunkering down in response to uncertainty concerning the UK's new relationship with the European mainland. Apparently you think A is more likely than B. Ok then.
I actually think that A influences B yes.
Finance people are in the end just people as well so they get influenced by the press.
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On June 24 2016 16:04 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 15:53 maartendq wrote:On June 24 2016 15:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 24 2016 15:31 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 15:20 RvB wrote:On June 24 2016 15:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 24 2016 15:15 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 13:20 amazingxkcd wrote:On June 24 2016 13:05 KwarK wrote:On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it. Two tier status might still be on the cards which is what most of Britain always wanted. We'll see what France and Germany do. could see Denmark and netherlands holding referendum if #Brexit wins Dutch person here, I have not heard anybody about a Dutch referendum for leaving the EU (except for our local Clown Trump), and after the disaster that was this years' referendum, I doubt it'd be easy to get going without changing some of those laws first (min 30% participation, it's very likely that rule completely fucked over the results of the Ukraine referendum) BBC says 54% of Dutch voters want to have a referendum. As to what shakes out between the UK and the EU, there is nothing keeping the UK and EU from coming to very friendly arrangements except human emotion. If the EU wants to act all butthurt and/or whoever runs the UK after Cameron wants to be a sore winner, then both sides could tit-for-tat each other and harm everyone. If they want to put their emotions aside, satisfactory arrangements for commerce between the UK and EU member states can and will be found. Our referendums are non binding though and the last one was a total disaster with 32% or something turning out. Technically speaking this UK referendum was non-binding in a similar manner. It is just that Cameron (et al.) 'made' it binding. As for the 32% turn out rate (was actually between 30-31% in the end, it was a result of the 30% treshhold that is in place to make the referendum 'official'. This made it so a lot of people didn't vote "strategically" so the referendum would be void. We ended up in a situation in which 60% voted "NO", but it is very very very very very likely the general population is in favor of the Ukraine agreement. Which is superawkward. Well i seriously doubt that an EU membership referendum would get only 30% turnout. The bigger the issue the more turnout yes? It's funny that people actually believe that big decisions like this should be left to a plebiscite. Stuff like this is way too big to be left to the people's gut feeling of the moment. In UK oriented countries (e.g. Common Law countries), the plebs decide life and death, which is the most important decision people can make. Granted, in the US you need unanimity, but it's also only 12 people...so...It just seems like people are in favor of democracy until democracy doesn't suit them anymore. Funny that. For all the shit the US gets, damn man, I didn't realize how much more we rely on the people to make most decisions than European countries. Honestly, though you're going to sit there and say that it shouldn't be up to the people who should for lack of better term "rule them" (oh how I wish no one was an option (Check box for Clinton, Check box for Trump, Check box for Johnson, Check box for Abolish this Office :p) on the ballot...just once, please!)? That's what this was about. Still though, Just curious, can the people vote to change their constitutions (one of the most important part of voting imho in the US is for all the state amendment votes that come up), or do you leave that up to whatever political Government body?
Our constitution requires a 2/3rd majority in the federal parliament for it to be changed. On the other hand Belgium's had no less than 6 state reforms since 1970, each of which granted increasing authority to the separate regional governments due to the realisation that each region has its own political culture and social needs.
There is a big difference in political systems between common law countries and countries whose political system is based on the Code Napoléon. The US constitution was created by people who had a strong distrust in big government, while the Code Napoléon was all about centralised power, and lots of it. The contexts in which those two systems were created could not have been more different.
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Great, another "victory" for democracy. Whoever shouts louder gets heard. Hopefully that won't trigger a break up of the EU, because this is the last thing we need today. We don't need the rise of more "populist" parties in Europe, some of which openly racist.
The next few years will be important for the U.K. I hope Cameron mans the fuck up and doesn't resign, as that would throw even more uncertainty in the market.
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Cameron will reportedly stay on.
Granted he did not say this himself (yet), but someone else from his party did.
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On June 24 2016 16:17 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 16:04 Wegandi wrote:On June 24 2016 15:53 maartendq wrote:On June 24 2016 15:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 24 2016 15:31 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 15:20 RvB wrote:On June 24 2016 15:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 24 2016 15:15 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 24 2016 13:20 amazingxkcd wrote:On June 24 2016 13:05 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Two tier status might still be on the cards which is what most of Britain always wanted. We'll see what France and Germany do. could see Denmark and netherlands holding referendum if #Brexit wins Dutch person here, I have not heard anybody about a Dutch referendum for leaving the EU (except for our local Clown Trump), and after the disaster that was this years' referendum, I doubt it'd be easy to get going without changing some of those laws first (min 30% participation, it's very likely that rule completely fucked over the results of the Ukraine referendum) BBC says 54% of Dutch voters want to have a referendum. As to what shakes out between the UK and the EU, there is nothing keeping the UK and EU from coming to very friendly arrangements except human emotion. If the EU wants to act all butthurt and/or whoever runs the UK after Cameron wants to be a sore winner, then both sides could tit-for-tat each other and harm everyone. If they want to put their emotions aside, satisfactory arrangements for commerce between the UK and EU member states can and will be found. Our referendums are non binding though and the last one was a total disaster with 32% or something turning out. Technically speaking this UK referendum was non-binding in a similar manner. It is just that Cameron (et al.) 'made' it binding. As for the 32% turn out rate (was actually between 30-31% in the end, it was a result of the 30% treshhold that is in place to make the referendum 'official'. This made it so a lot of people didn't vote "strategically" so the referendum would be void. We ended up in a situation in which 60% voted "NO", but it is very very very very very likely the general population is in favor of the Ukraine agreement. Which is superawkward. Well i seriously doubt that an EU membership referendum would get only 30% turnout. The bigger the issue the more turnout yes? It's funny that people actually believe that big decisions like this should be left to a plebiscite. Stuff like this is way too big to be left to the people's gut feeling of the moment. In UK oriented countries (e.g. Common Law countries), the plebs decide life and death, which is the most important decision people can make. Granted, in the US you need unanimity, but it's also only 12 people...so...It just seems like people are in favor of democracy until democracy doesn't suit them anymore. Funny that. For all the shit the US gets, damn man, I didn't realize how much more we rely on the people to make most decisions than European countries. Honestly, though you're going to sit there and say that it shouldn't be up to the people who should for lack of better term "rule them" (oh how I wish no one was an option (Check box for Clinton, Check box for Trump, Check box for Johnson, Check box for Abolish this Office :p) on the ballot...just once, please!)? That's what this was about. Just curious, can the people vote to change their constitutions (one of the most important part of voting imho in the US is for all the state amendment votes that come up), or do you leave that up to whatever political Government body? When did the US have a referendum for the last time though? I don't think there's much of a difference. In The Netherlands there are at least 5 different things which you can vote for (both 2 houses of parliament, regional government, local government, european parliament and the water board).
Waterboard might trigger some Americans here ;-)
Basically, we have an institutional organ that concerns itself with the waterworks in the Netherlands :-). Participation rates for those have historically been around 15-25%, until they were tied in with the province (which is the senate by extension)
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On June 24 2016 16:15 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 16:12 Linear wrote:On June 24 2016 16:03 sharkie wrote:
I love how Remain supporters blame the Brexit for the pound's fall.
It's just the consequence of the Remain's campaign "UK will fall into a crisis if we leave the EU".
You reap what you sow... Or it could be that nearly every financial institute who did research into the matter before the result of the vote concluded it would have a negative impact? As I said, creating fear and angst to convince people to vote remain. And this stupid plan failed. How the heck can you even research a thing as consequences of Britain leaving EU? It's just guessing.
This is some top tier logic. If remain wins it's status quo EU and UK continue to bumble along and not much happens. Now that leave won there is a ton of uncertainty in unspooling the direct/secondary/tiertiary/etc consequences while simultaneously there is no planned or established protocol to resolve the win. You answered your own damn question lmao. When bankers have to guess a lot they get nervous and pull out.
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
expecting cameron to resign in this speech
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On June 24 2016 15:32 m4ini wrote:
One thing that i've just read on reuters..
The majority of "out voters" are old farts, the majority of "in voters" are young people. Now one can argue that the youth is dumb etc, but it seems odd to me that a decision of this magnitude isn't made by the generation that will live to see what fruit it bears.
People, in fact, today literally fucked their kids over.
People tend not to out grow their 20's. Old people are making decisions on outdated world views whereas a young person, is basing it on here and now. Here in the US, old people are misled quite easily because back in there day the media was trustworthy (Cronkite). Whereas a millennial tend to check multiple sources before having faith in something.
Anyway, tomorrow these wise old people are going to wake up tomorrow with a lot of there wealth gone. In a year, when housing prices decline drastically they will have even less wealth as most of their wealth is tied to their properties.
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On June 24 2016 16:18 Inex wrote:
Great, another "victory" for democracy. Whoever shouts louder gets heard. Hopefully that won't trigger a break up of the EU, because this is the last thing we need today. We don't need the rise of more "populist" parties in Europe, some of which openly racist.
The next few years will be important for the U.K. I hope Cameron mans the fuck up and doesn't resign, as that would throw even more uncertainty in the market.
Be very careful with using "populist" and "anti-establishment", it's a very important distinction to make currently 
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On June 24 2016 16:21 ahswtini wrote:
expecting cameron to resign in this speech
When where source vid gimmegimme !!!
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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I think France might follow, Le Pen already said they want to try it too and I'm not sure if the French would vote differently. Might be the start of the end for EU.
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On June 24 2016 16:20 Laurens wrote:
Cameron will reportedly stay on.
Granted he did not say this himself (yet), but someone else from his party did.
Nope. He's resigning
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EPT
