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On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it.
Yeah, its called statesmanship when people jump onto the political sword for what they believe is the good of their country. It doesn't happen alot. But it could this time around. Or they could all just go with the will of the people and hope they can pull through this.
I know very little about UK politics. My opinion on Cameron being fucked is based on the fact that this looks really bad.
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On June 24 2016 13:06 m4ini wrote:That's just a dumb statement with pretty much no basis in reality. Or do you, by chance, have sources where that happened? Show nested quote +Two tier status might still be on the cards which is what most of Britain always wanted. We'll see what France and Germany do.
Not sure if Brits realize, but there's a couple more countries that have a say in this. There won't be a two tier status. Because that actually would be political suicide. There's literally zero chance for that.
If the German and French government believes they need to stop the anti EU sentiment dead in its tracks. They could take a harsh line with the UK, even if it hurts their own economy. That leaving the EU will cost the nation that does it. Or they could just try to work it out. I could see it going either way.
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CONGRATULATIONS!!!
I was watching the whole night BBC, it is absolutely amazing!!!!!
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On June 24 2016 13:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it. Yeah, its called statesmanship when people jump onto the political sword for what they believe is the good of their country. It doesn't happen alot. But it could this time around.
You are incredibly authoritarian, you know that right?
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United States44201 Posts
On June 24 2016 13:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it. Yeah, its called statesmanship when people jump onto the political sword for what they believe is the good of their country. It doesn't happen alot. But it could this time around. Or they could all just go with the will of the people and hope they can pull through this. I know very little about UK politics. My opinion on Cameron being fucked is based on the fact that this looks really bad.
The MPs are still pro-EU and they collectively hold absolute power. Cameron will have to do something but at the end of the day it will have to be palatable to Westminster, not to the people. The people may express their dissatisfaction with parliament at the next election but UKIP are still unelectable to that. What will happen next will be Cameron taking this result to Merkel and Hollande and asking what they can give him to sell to the British people and I can't speculate too much on that. But Cameron will have to sell whatever he gets to both the British population (split pretty evenly) and to the MPs who will have to vote on it and he has a narrow majority as it is and half of his own party is pro-EU. So his hands are very tied, he's dragged in two directions and he's pretty powerless either way.
He's kinda fucked but he doesn't have to resign, he has to bargain.
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Interesting results, any reactions from the Scots/Northen Irish/Welsh yet?
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Cameron should resign. He campaigned for remain and totally lost it. I guess those in the Tory party supporting the exit of Britain will take over. Yet there is quite some uncertainty as a majority in the British parliament has been supporting a stay in the EU. Let's see how this plays out.
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On June 24 2016 13:13 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:08 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it. Yeah, its called statesmanship when people jump onto the political sword for what they believe is the good of their country. It doesn't happen alot. But it could this time around. Or they could all just go with the will of the people and hope they can pull through this. I know very little about UK politics. My opinion on Cameron being fucked is based on the fact that this looks really bad. The MPs are still pro-EU and they collectively hold absolute power. Cameron will have to do something but at the end of the day it will have to be palatable to Westminster, not to the people. The people may express their dissatisfaction with parliament at the next election but UKIP are still unelectable to that. What will happen next will be Cameron taking this result to Merkel and Hollande and asking what they can give him to sell to the British people and I can't speculate too much on that. But Cameron will have to sell whatever he gets to both the British population (split pretty evenly) and to the MPs who will have to vote on it and he has a narrow majority as it is and half of his own party is pro-EU. So his hands are very tied, he's dragged in two directions and he's pretty powerless either way. He's kinda fucked but he doesn't have to resign, he has to bargain.
Interesting. That is a lot better than people make it out to be, and more pragmatic. All the reports I see is that existing the EU is economic cancer.
On June 24 2016 13:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:08 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it. Yeah, its called statesmanship when people jump onto the political sword for what they believe is the good of their country. It doesn't happen alot. But it could this time around. You are incredibly authoritarian, you know that right?
I understand the merit of representative democracy and that mob rule leads to short termism with devastating results.
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On June 24 2016 13:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:06 m4ini wrote:The Germans seem like the culture type to take a hit just to make a point.
That's just a dumb statement with pretty much no basis in reality. Or do you, by chance, have sources where that happened? Two tier status might still be on the cards which is what most of Britain always wanted. We'll see what France and Germany do.
Not sure if Brits realize, but there's a couple more countries that have a say in this. There won't be a two tier status. Because that actually would be political suicide. There's literally zero chance for that. If the German and French government believes they need to stop the anti EU sentiment dead in its tracks. They could take a harsh line with the UK, even if it hurts their own economy. That leaving the EU will cost the nation that does it. Or they could just try to work it out. I could see it going either way.
The EU will undoubtedly take a harsh line with the UK. Again. The UK will be a competitor soon. There's no outcome where it wouldn't hurt the german, french or general EU economy. That's just in the nature of things if one country leaves a single market.
There's also nothing really to work out. The UK will lose access to the single market as it stands. It in fact has to, since it doesn't need to obey the regulations for european countries that have access. So clearly, to make up for this, they'll have to pay a price. You stated that germany out of spitefulness, "because they seem like that culture", will try and screw with the UK. Which is simply plain wrong. And no, they can't just "obey the rules and then get access back", since they don't contribute to the EU in general anymore - of which the single market is a benefit.
Now, it could happen that the EU "evolves" into just a single market now (i'd like that), slowly. But that's decades down the line, and until then the UK still wouldn't get access without big concessions/simply payments. I don't really understand why people are outraged or blame other countries but their own for that.
split pretty evenly
Only as long as you don't look at a map and who voted what.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On June 24 2016 13:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it. Two tier status might still be on the cards which is what most of Britain always wanted. We'll see what France and Germany do.
could see Denmark and netherlands holding referendum if #Brexit wins
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On June 24 2016 13:15 OtherWorld wrote:
Interesting results, any reactions from the Scots/Northen Irish/Welsh yet?
Scots seem to already be planning the next independence referendum. The parts of Northern Ireland that wants independence seems to be wanting to use it to further that end. The Welsh are about in line with England on the referendum.
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On June 24 2016 13:04 Espers wrote:
well the EU was an increasingly out-of-touch organisation but I'm terrified for the future..
Yup same here.
For the first time in my life actually,i am worried about the future.
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On June 24 2016 13:15 OtherWorld wrote:
Interesting results, any reactions from the Scots/Northen Irish/Welsh yet?
The Scots are basically talking another independence referendum, which will never happen because Westminster won't allow it
Northern Ireland is depending on who you talk to talking unity or returning to the good ol' days of the IRA bombing the fuck out of England
Wales voted Leave overall anyway so most are cool
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United States44201 Posts
On June 24 2016 13:21 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:15 OtherWorld wrote:
Interesting results, any reactions from the Scots/Northen Irish/Welsh yet? Scots seem to already be planning the next independence referendum. The parts of Northern Ireland that wants independence seems to be wanting to use it to further that end. The Welsh are about in line with England on the referendum.
The bit that makes it even more difficult is that the English are generally pro retaining the union with Scotland but Scotland are pro staying in the EU and the English are against staying in the EU so the same voters have two incompatible interests there.
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On June 24 2016 13:17 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:11 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 13:06 m4ini wrote:The Germans seem like the culture type to take a hit just to make a point.
That's just a dumb statement with pretty much no basis in reality. Or do you, by chance, have sources where that happened? Two tier status might still be on the cards which is what most of Britain always wanted. We'll see what France and Germany do.
Not sure if Brits realize, but there's a couple more countries that have a say in this. There won't be a two tier status. Because that actually would be political suicide. There's literally zero chance for that. If the German and French government believes they need to stop the anti EU sentiment dead in its tracks. They could take a harsh line with the UK, even if it hurts their own economy. That leaving the EU will cost the nation that does it. Or they could just try to work it out. I could see it going either way. The EU will undoubtedly take a harsh line with the UK. Again. The UK will be a competitor soon. There's no outcome where it wouldn't hurt the german, french or general EU economy. That's just in the nature of things if one country leaves a single market. There's also nothing really to work out. The UK will lose access to the single market as it stands. It in fact has to, since it doesn't need to obey the regulations for european countries that have access. So clearly, to make up for this, they'll have to pay a price. You stated that germany out of spitefulness, "because they seem like that culture", will try and screw with the UK. Which is simply plain wrong. And no, they can't just "obey the rules and then get access back", since they don't contribute to the EU in general anymore - of which the single market is a benefit. Now, it could happen that the EU "evolves" into just a single market now (i'd like that), slowly. But that's decades down the line, and until then the UK still wouldn't get access without big concessions/simply payments. I don't really understand why people are outraged or blame other countries but their own for that. Only as long as you don't look at a map and who voted what.
I got lambasted in the other thread that the EU member countries would evoke trade wars with UK if they left, but that seems to be the opinion of the posters in this thread - how odd. Tell me how it would be any different in the macro scheme from the UK paying a fee to the EU than paying tariffs (yes, I understand it may have disparate impact on certain industries, but do you have any specific #'s in terms of total outlays). If the EU wants to shoot themselves in the foot over a power-play that's their prerogative, but it seems quite myopic.
Simply put, that if the EU wants to be petty it's not going to be good for anyone, so cheering this result on just sounds very spiteful. It seems people only like democracy when democracy is in tacit approval of only the things they want/like. Same people tend to also deride the selfishness and self-interest of others. :p I am enjoying tonight. I don't deny my own little slice of pettiness lol.
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Britain will be fine. They are very Industrious people. now for the EU countries like Greece and Spain not so much, they depend on strong EU countries.
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On June 24 2016 13:25 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:15 OtherWorld wrote:
Interesting results, any reactions from the Scots/Northen Irish/Welsh yet? The Scots are basically talking another independence referendum, which will never happen because Westminster won't allow it Northern Ireland is depending on who you talk to talking unity or returning to the good ol' days of the IRA bombing the fuck out of England Wales voted Leave overall anyway so most are cool
Doesn't' that all depend on how badly the Scots want the vote on independence? If they want it bad enough, it will happen. Even if Westminster doesn't approve?
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On June 24 2016 13:20 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:05 KwarK wrote:On June 24 2016 13:03 LegalLord wrote:
Yeah, going against a major national vote goes down much more poorly than supporting any given position without that factor. A defect against this vote is really going to be quite shitty for the political career of anyone who does it. Two tier status might still be on the cards which is what most of Britain always wanted. We'll see what France and Germany do. could see Denmark and netherlands holding referendum if #Brexit wins
oh
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On June 24 2016 13:23 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 13:04 Espers wrote:
well the EU was an increasingly out-of-touch organisation but I'm terrified for the future.. Yup same here. For the first time in my life actually,i am worried about the future. Don't be too much.
It was an important decision but not the end of the world.
Greece falling down (being forced) to Albanian level in 4 years or the Asian crisis was much much worse.
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EPT
