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On December 06 2013 22:15 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 18:18 Shival wrote:On December 06 2013 17:01 Chrono000 wrote:On December 06 2013 14:32 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I have asked this before (on reddit) and looked up a bitcoin wiki but I still don't quite understand how bitcoin garners value. I understand that some people use other currencies to buy them, so there is that. And US currency used to be backed by gold, and is now backed by bonds and shit which is sort of dumb but makes sense.
From what I understand, btc is farmed or mined by running some program that does math? Like what do you do leave your computer on consstantly doing this for fractions of cents all the time? Also, how is doing that math process worth anything? Does the extrapolation of that data work for some larger entity or something? ill try and answer this. bitcoin are in a way backed by how useful it is. its practically email money (way of transaction) and a store of wealth (like gold). the protocal has other uses that have not been implanted yet like the possibly to code in escrow and stocks. you cant hard code stuff in to what we use now but u can in bitcoin. the fact that money can free flow more easily will open up new worlds. when it comes to mining people used to be able to mine on the CPU chip, then it moved on to graphics cards now there are very specific chips called asics with a soul purpose of only mining bitcoin. mining bitcoin is bascially looking for valuable numbers. it is a new concept but like mining for gold, mining for valuable numbers gets more and more difficult and thus requires MASSIVE amounts of computing power to figure out these math problems. its a very interesting concept but placing value on important rare numbers is so new and my seem stupid for some. but so is digging around in the dirt for a piece of shiny metal. the usefulness of gold is not as useful as people think. silver infact is more useful but gold just looks a little nicer and has a lot of history behind it. That's the problem, it isn't backed by how useful it is, atleast it shouldn't be that we derive value from that. The problem with Bitcoin is that there's countless other cryptocurrencies that may become more useful than Bitcoin. In fact there pretty much already are some that are arguably better suited for the task. Should they be valued higher than Bitcoins? Gold has intrinsic value, in that it's a precious metal that (probably) cannot be replaced by something better. That definately doesn't hold true for Bitcoin, Bitcoin has no real intrinsic value, because it can easily be replaced by a different cryptocurrency. Bitcoin in its current stage is simply a bubble. One of the telltale signs of it is that other cryptocurrencies rise and fall on Bitcoin's well-being. Why is that, why are they linked together so much? If a cryptocurrency has intrinsic value of itself it shouldn't be as linked as they are. It's simply the state of greed, shortly before the fall. Look up South Sea Company. Cryptocurrencies may well be the future, however, the current price is simply a bubble, it rose way too quickly because of greed. your argument doesn't make sense. It raises and fall at the level people believe it should be, end of discussion. People being greedy would have sold their coins to make their little dollars and it wouldn't stay more than a day. It's not greed, it's investing and giving trust to a system that will benefit everyone. Just accept that even if you have not and are not interested in anything than criticizing something you have nothing to do with. Just the mere interest of hanging out in this thread is enough to support that the coin will be very important. The only question is that when it become more mainstream, until what point will you keep saying that it is useless. You are already 5 years late. I want to be able to pay without using Visa/Mastercard, without using paypal. Now, all you disbelievers, here is an good argument against the bitcoin. All transaction are public and a big company selling directly for bitcoin either has to go through a BitPay type of company, or their revenue can be calculated and that can lead to some hurtful economic intelligence gathering...
this is true.
the main concern is the complete transparency of bitcoin. although i think a new coin will be made for this (used along side bitcoin) or other services to tumble for a low fee.
look at this its pretty common for even really smart and powerful people or companies to get technology prediction wrong.
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Why not use Bill Gates famous quote about memory usage that plagued DOS/Windows systems all the way up to XP?
Yes, sometimes doomsayers are wrong. That's no reason why bitcoin can't fail.
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On December 06 2013 22:15 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 18:18 Shival wrote:On December 06 2013 17:01 Chrono000 wrote:On December 06 2013 14:32 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I have asked this before (on reddit) and looked up a bitcoin wiki but I still don't quite understand how bitcoin garners value. I understand that some people use other currencies to buy them, so there is that. And US currency used to be backed by gold, and is now backed by bonds and shit which is sort of dumb but makes sense.
From what I understand, btc is farmed or mined by running some program that does math? Like what do you do leave your computer on consstantly doing this for fractions of cents all the time? Also, how is doing that math process worth anything? Does the extrapolation of that data work for some larger entity or something? ill try and answer this. bitcoin are in a way backed by how useful it is. its practically email money (way of transaction) and a store of wealth (like gold). the protocal has other uses that have not been implanted yet like the possibly to code in escrow and stocks. you cant hard code stuff in to what we use now but u can in bitcoin. the fact that money can free flow more easily will open up new worlds. when it comes to mining people used to be able to mine on the CPU chip, then it moved on to graphics cards now there are very specific chips called asics with a soul purpose of only mining bitcoin. mining bitcoin is bascially looking for valuable numbers. it is a new concept but like mining for gold, mining for valuable numbers gets more and more difficult and thus requires MASSIVE amounts of computing power to figure out these math problems. its a very interesting concept but placing value on important rare numbers is so new and my seem stupid for some. but so is digging around in the dirt for a piece of shiny metal. the usefulness of gold is not as useful as people think. silver infact is more useful but gold just looks a little nicer and has a lot of history behind it. That's the problem, it isn't backed by how useful it is, atleast it shouldn't be that we derive value from that. The problem with Bitcoin is that there's countless other cryptocurrencies that may become more useful than Bitcoin. In fact there pretty much already are some that are arguably better suited for the task. Should they be valued higher than Bitcoins? Gold has intrinsic value, in that it's a precious metal that (probably) cannot be replaced by something better. That definately doesn't hold true for Bitcoin, Bitcoin has no real intrinsic value, because it can easily be replaced by a different cryptocurrency. Bitcoin in its current stage is simply a bubble. One of the telltale signs of it is that other cryptocurrencies rise and fall on Bitcoin's well-being. Why is that, why are they linked together so much? If a cryptocurrency has intrinsic value of itself it shouldn't be as linked as they are. It's simply the state of greed, shortly before the fall. Look up South Sea Company. Cryptocurrencies may well be the future, however, the current price is simply a bubble, it rose way too quickly because of greed. your argument doesn't make sense. It raises and fall at the level people believe it should be, end of discussion. People being greedy would have sold their coins to make their little dollars and it wouldn't stay more than a day. It's not greed, it's investing and giving trust to a system that will benefit everyone. Just accept that even if you have not and are not interested in anything than criticizing something you have nothing to do with. Just the mere interest of hanging out in this thread is enough to support that the coin will be very important. The only question is that when it become more mainstream, until what point will you keep saying that it is useless. You are already 5 years late. I want to be able to pay without using Visa/Mastercard, without using paypal. Now, all you disbelievers, here is an good argument against the bitcoin. All transaction are public and a big company selling directly for bitcoin either has to go through a BitPay type of company, or their revenue can be calculated and that can lead to some hurtful economic intelligence gathering...
You clearly don't understand economics. The people who enter longs at the height of a rally are usually the worst off. They enter because of greed, not understanding of the market. What is happening to bitcoin at the moment is far from investing.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4iu44NPWRiQ/TpXPsVOZfZI/AAAAAAAAAS4/wtzsH4kr1LI/s1600/Psychological Stages of a Bubble Market.jpg
Also, as a note: I've been in this thread earlier, predicting it would fall when it would reach ~$1000 (fell at $900 to $450). I've entered bitcoins at $265 at the start of the bubble and long since cashed out. At the moment it's simply too risky to enter longs again. It needs to properly consolidate at this level or it still risks a crash.
5 years late? Haha, yeah, that would've been awesome to know all this 1 year before bitcoin was developed.
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On December 06 2013 22:50 Acrofales wrote:
Why not use Bill Gates famous quote about memory usage that plagued DOS/Windows systems all the way up to XP?
Yes, sometimes doomsayers are wrong. That's no reason why bitcoin can't fail.
Sure, you know how to put word one after the other, but are you being rational and smart about it? 
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On December 06 2013 23:53 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 22:15 0x64 wrote:On December 06 2013 18:18 Shival wrote:On December 06 2013 17:01 Chrono000 wrote:On December 06 2013 14:32 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I have asked this before (on reddit) and looked up a bitcoin wiki but I still don't quite understand how bitcoin garners value. I understand that some people use other currencies to buy them, so there is that. And US currency used to be backed by gold, and is now backed by bonds and shit which is sort of dumb but makes sense.
From what I understand, btc is farmed or mined by running some program that does math? Like what do you do leave your computer on consstantly doing this for fractions of cents all the time? Also, how is doing that math process worth anything? Does the extrapolation of that data work for some larger entity or something? ill try and answer this. bitcoin are in a way backed by how useful it is. its practically email money (way of transaction) and a store of wealth (like gold). the protocal has other uses that have not been implanted yet like the possibly to code in escrow and stocks. you cant hard code stuff in to what we use now but u can in bitcoin. the fact that money can free flow more easily will open up new worlds. when it comes to mining people used to be able to mine on the CPU chip, then it moved on to graphics cards now there are very specific chips called asics with a soul purpose of only mining bitcoin. mining bitcoin is bascially looking for valuable numbers. it is a new concept but like mining for gold, mining for valuable numbers gets more and more difficult and thus requires MASSIVE amounts of computing power to figure out these math problems. its a very interesting concept but placing value on important rare numbers is so new and my seem stupid for some. but so is digging around in the dirt for a piece of shiny metal. the usefulness of gold is not as useful as people think. silver infact is more useful but gold just looks a little nicer and has a lot of history behind it. That's the problem, it isn't backed by how useful it is, atleast it shouldn't be that we derive value from that. The problem with Bitcoin is that there's countless other cryptocurrencies that may become more useful than Bitcoin. In fact there pretty much already are some that are arguably better suited for the task. Should they be valued higher than Bitcoins? Gold has intrinsic value, in that it's a precious metal that (probably) cannot be replaced by something better. That definately doesn't hold true for Bitcoin, Bitcoin has no real intrinsic value, because it can easily be replaced by a different cryptocurrency. Bitcoin in its current stage is simply a bubble. One of the telltale signs of it is that other cryptocurrencies rise and fall on Bitcoin's well-being. Why is that, why are they linked together so much? If a cryptocurrency has intrinsic value of itself it shouldn't be as linked as they are. It's simply the state of greed, shortly before the fall. Look up South Sea Company. Cryptocurrencies may well be the future, however, the current price is simply a bubble, it rose way too quickly because of greed. your argument doesn't make sense. It raises and fall at the level people believe it should be, end of discussion. People being greedy would have sold their coins to make their little dollars and it wouldn't stay more than a day. It's not greed, it's investing and giving trust to a system that will benefit everyone. Just accept that even if you have not and are not interested in anything than criticizing something you have nothing to do with. Just the mere interest of hanging out in this thread is enough to support that the coin will be very important. The only question is that when it become more mainstream, until what point will you keep saying that it is useless. You are already 5 years late. I want to be able to pay without using Visa/Mastercard, without using paypal. Now, all you disbelievers, here is an good argument against the bitcoin. All transaction are public and a big company selling directly for bitcoin either has to go through a BitPay type of company, or their revenue can be calculated and that can lead to some hurtful economic intelligence gathering... You clearly don't understand economics. The people who enter longs at the height of a rally are usually the worst off. They enter because of greed, not understanding of the market. What is happening to bitcoin at the moment is far from investing. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4iu44NPWRiQ/TpXPsVOZfZI/AAAAAAAAAS4/wtzsH4kr1LI/s1600/Psychological Stages of a Bubble Market.jpgAlso, as a note: I've been in this thread earlier, predicting it would fall when it would reach ~$1000 (fell at $900 to $450). I've entered bitcoins at $265 at the start of the bubble and long since cashed out. At the moment it's simply too risky to enter longs again. It needs to properly consolidate at this level or it still risks a crash. 5 years late? Haha, yeah, that would've been awesome to know all this 1 year before bitcoin was developed.
I'd be delusional indeed to think that the coin is rising so fast because of the holy spirit.
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What is currently causing the market fluctuation of bitcoin at the moment? I haven't followed it much but a 20%-25% decrease over a day seems sort of extreme for anything.
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actually because its not going up and china is not sure anymore because the banks said "no bitcoin" but the state china says bitcoin is a good like "gold" for example....lot of people are cashing out cause they think 1200$ is max. may be or not... no one knows. but i guess that after the downswing alot of people waiting to get in for cheaper so in time it will go up again.
massive swings in value means a lot of trading happening.
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On December 07 2013 05:32 xanatas wrote:
actually because its not going up and china is not sure anymore because the banks said "no bitcoin" but the state china says bitcoin is a good like "gold" for example....lot of people are cashing out cause they think 1200$ is max. may be or not... no one knows. but i guess that after the downswing alot of people waiting to get in for cheaper so in time it will go up again.
massive swings in value means a lot of trading happening.
This makes no sense at all. Price going down means people are unable to sell at higher prices. So people buying when it goes down is no guarantee that it'll go up again, it just means people bought at lower prices in the expectation that there are still people out there who are willing to buy at a higher price. Whether those people really exist, and will continue to exist is not a given.
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its happening! cheap coin! SALE on btc!
on a serious note, a lot of news came out so its only natural with all these dips. plus we have not stuck around at an all time high for this for long before. the price nearing all time high only makes people a little nervous. all good signs of strength at the end of the day.
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This is minimal on the scale of Bitcoin :D
I'll start to worry about the future of bitcoin if it divides overnight by 10.
It's 4.5x what it was a month ago, the volumes have been huge.
The things in china sucks and might be that we see some lower price, but "crashes" usually just seal a new lowest boundary.
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Am waiting til sunday to increase my holdings... 800 was sooooooooooooo tempting, but historically sundays have been the lowest prices of the week... am interested to see how it plays out over the next couple weeks.
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Can someone explain to me why you want your 'currency' to have intrinsic value/to be a store of wealth/a commodity?
Money without intrinsic value allows for simple creation and destruction: you just enter a few numbers into a computer, or print a few pieces of paper. You can't print gold; you can't type Bitcoins into existence.
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On December 07 2013 03:22 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:53 Shival wrote:On December 06 2013 22:15 0x64 wrote:On December 06 2013 18:18 Shival wrote:On December 06 2013 17:01 Chrono000 wrote:On December 06 2013 14:32 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I have asked this before (on reddit) and looked up a bitcoin wiki but I still don't quite understand how bitcoin garners value. I understand that some people use other currencies to buy them, so there is that. And US currency used to be backed by gold, and is now backed by bonds and shit which is sort of dumb but makes sense.
From what I understand, btc is farmed or mined by running some program that does math? Like what do you do leave your computer on consstantly doing this for fractions of cents all the time? Also, how is doing that math process worth anything? Does the extrapolation of that data work for some larger entity or something? ill try and answer this. bitcoin are in a way backed by how useful it is. its practically email money (way of transaction) and a store of wealth (like gold). the protocal has other uses that have not been implanted yet like the possibly to code in escrow and stocks. you cant hard code stuff in to what we use now but u can in bitcoin. the fact that money can free flow more easily will open up new worlds. when it comes to mining people used to be able to mine on the CPU chip, then it moved on to graphics cards now there are very specific chips called asics with a soul purpose of only mining bitcoin. mining bitcoin is bascially looking for valuable numbers. it is a new concept but like mining for gold, mining for valuable numbers gets more and more difficult and thus requires MASSIVE amounts of computing power to figure out these math problems. its a very interesting concept but placing value on important rare numbers is so new and my seem stupid for some. but so is digging around in the dirt for a piece of shiny metal. the usefulness of gold is not as useful as people think. silver infact is more useful but gold just looks a little nicer and has a lot of history behind it. That's the problem, it isn't backed by how useful it is, atleast it shouldn't be that we derive value from that. The problem with Bitcoin is that there's countless other cryptocurrencies that may become more useful than Bitcoin. In fact there pretty much already are some that are arguably better suited for the task. Should they be valued higher than Bitcoins? Gold has intrinsic value, in that it's a precious metal that (probably) cannot be replaced by something better. That definately doesn't hold true for Bitcoin, Bitcoin has no real intrinsic value, because it can easily be replaced by a different cryptocurrency. Bitcoin in its current stage is simply a bubble. One of the telltale signs of it is that other cryptocurrencies rise and fall on Bitcoin's well-being. Why is that, why are they linked together so much? If a cryptocurrency has intrinsic value of itself it shouldn't be as linked as they are. It's simply the state of greed, shortly before the fall. Look up South Sea Company. Cryptocurrencies may well be the future, however, the current price is simply a bubble, it rose way too quickly because of greed. your argument doesn't make sense. It raises and fall at the level people believe it should be, end of discussion. People being greedy would have sold their coins to make their little dollars and it wouldn't stay more than a day. It's not greed, it's investing and giving trust to a system that will benefit everyone. Just accept that even if you have not and are not interested in anything than criticizing something you have nothing to do with. Just the mere interest of hanging out in this thread is enough to support that the coin will be very important. The only question is that when it become more mainstream, until what point will you keep saying that it is useless. You are already 5 years late. I want to be able to pay without using Visa/Mastercard, without using paypal. Now, all you disbelievers, here is an good argument against the bitcoin. All transaction are public and a big company selling directly for bitcoin either has to go through a BitPay type of company, or their revenue can be calculated and that can lead to some hurtful economic intelligence gathering... You clearly don't understand economics. The people who enter longs at the height of a rally are usually the worst off. They enter because of greed, not understanding of the market. What is happening to bitcoin at the moment is far from investing. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4iu44NPWRiQ/TpXPsVOZfZI/AAAAAAAAAS4/wtzsH4kr1LI/s1600/Psychological Stages of a Bubble Market.jpgAlso, as a note: I've been in this thread earlier, predicting it would fall when it would reach ~$1000 (fell at $900 to $450). I've entered bitcoins at $265 at the start of the bubble and long since cashed out. At the moment it's simply too risky to enter longs again. It needs to properly consolidate at this level or it still risks a crash. 5 years late? Haha, yeah, that would've been awesome to know all this 1 year before bitcoin was developed. I'd be delusional indeed to think that the coin is rising so fast because of the holy spirit.
No, you're being delusional if you think the fast rising of the coin is backed by anything fundamental.
On December 07 2013 05:36 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 05:32 xanatas wrote:
actually because its not going up and china is not sure anymore because the banks said "no bitcoin" but the state china says bitcoin is a good like "gold" for example....lot of people are cashing out cause they think 1200$ is max. may be or not... no one knows. but i guess that after the downswing alot of people waiting to get in for cheaper so in time it will go up again.
massive swings in value means a lot of trading happening. This makes no sense at all. Price going down means people are unable to sell at higher prices. So people buying when it goes down is no guarantee that it'll go up again, it just means people bought at lower prices in the expectation that there are still people out there who are willing to buy at a higher price. Whether those people really exist, and will continue to exist is not a given.
He's actually right though. You see this happening all the time with regular currency pairs (albeit less volatile). Bad news comes out for euro? Euro drops immediately against dollar, then some time later you'll see a correction to levels that the fundamentals actually support.
On December 07 2013 06:10 Chrono000 wrote:
its happening! cheap coin! SALE on btc!
on a serious note, a lot of news came out so its only natural with all these dips. plus we have not stuck around at an all time high for this for long before. the price nearing all time high only makes people a little nervous. all good signs of strength at the end of the day.
Delusional. $1242 is being a huge resistance.
Drops are comming at faster intervals. No higher peaks than the first peak. No proper consolidation. Highly volatile.
They're all signs of it having reached its peak more or less, atleast for the short to mid term.
On December 07 2013 06:33 0x64 wrote:
This is minimal on the scale of Bitcoin :D
I'll start to worry about the future of bitcoin if it divides overnight by 10.
It's 4.5x what it was a month ago, the volumes have been huge.
The things in china sucks and might be that we see some lower price, but "crashes" usually just seal a new lowest boundary.
If you start to worry about the future of bitcoin at a time that it has already crashed, you're too late, it's already over. If it ever divides by 10 again, or reach a level lower than the level before the bubble (200ish), that spells out that market support for the coin is gone.
Todays 'crash' has actually reached a lower lowest boundary than the 2 previous. After all the last 2 'crashes' it has never reached a higher boundary than the first.
On December 07 2013 08:12 Mstring wrote:
Can someone explain to me why you want your 'currency' to have intrinsic value/to be a store of wealth/a commodity?
Money without intrinsic value allows for simple creation and destruction: you just enter a few numbers into a computer, or print a few pieces of paper. You can't print gold; you can't type Bitcoins into existence.
No intrinsic value means it's worth nothing by itself, and very much a risky commodity to suddenly drop to zero worth without a centralized system regulating its worth.
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On December 07 2013 08:48 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 08:12 Mstring wrote:
Can someone explain to me why you want your 'currency' to have intrinsic value/to be a store of wealth/a commodity?
Money without intrinsic value allows for simple creation and destruction: you just enter a few numbers into a computer, or print a few pieces of paper. You can't print gold; you can't type Bitcoins into existence. No intrinsic value means it's worth nothing by itself, and very much a risky commodity to suddenly drop to zero worth without a centralized system regulating its worth.
Something without value isn't a commodity at all, let alone a "risky" one. We're all sold the idea that money is a commodity with some value and thus it's justified for banks to charge interest on loaning it. If money has negligible intrinsic value, what exactly are you being loaned when you take out a bank loan?
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money is valuable because you have to use it to pay your taxes to the government
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On December 07 2013 09:10 Mstring wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 08:48 Shival wrote:On December 07 2013 08:12 Mstring wrote:
Can someone explain to me why you want your 'currency' to have intrinsic value/to be a store of wealth/a commodity?
Money without intrinsic value allows for simple creation and destruction: you just enter a few numbers into a computer, or print a few pieces of paper. You can't print gold; you can't type Bitcoins into existence. No intrinsic value means it's worth nothing by itself, and very much a risky commodity to suddenly drop to zero worth without a centralized system regulating its worth. Something without value isn't a commodity at all, let alone a "risky" one. We're all sold the idea that money is a commodity with some value and thus it's justified for banks to charge interest on loaning it. If money has negligible intrinsic value, what exactly are you being loaned when you take out a bank loan?
True, commodity was the wrong term to use. However, fiat money is in no way a commodity, and to my knowledge hasn't been said to be by any reputable economist.
You're being loaned a common coin that's been deemed acceptable payment and must be accepted in x country by law as payment. It's the law that gives a coin its status, and the central bank that handles its viability as a relatively stable coin.
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On December 07 2013 09:32 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 09:10 Mstring wrote:On December 07 2013 08:48 Shival wrote:On December 07 2013 08:12 Mstring wrote:
Can someone explain to me why you want your 'currency' to have intrinsic value/to be a store of wealth/a commodity?
Money without intrinsic value allows for simple creation and destruction: you just enter a few numbers into a computer, or print a few pieces of paper. You can't print gold; you can't type Bitcoins into existence. No intrinsic value means it's worth nothing by itself, and very much a risky commodity to suddenly drop to zero worth without a centralized system regulating its worth. Something without value isn't a commodity at all, let alone a "risky" one. We're all sold the idea that money is a commodity with some value and thus it's justified for banks to charge interest on loaning it. If money has negligible intrinsic value, what exactly are you being loaned when you take out a bank loan? True, commodity was the wrong term to use. However, fiat money is in no way a commodity, and to my knowledge hasn't been said to be by any reputable economist.
Indeed fiat currency is in no way a commodity except in cash form as kindling. I am wondering why people want their currency to be a commodity; how they think it will solve the problems we experience today.
On December 07 2013 09:32 Shival wrote:
You're being loaned a common coin that's been deemed acceptable payment and must be accepted in x country by law as payment. It's the law that gives a coin its status, and the central bank that handles its viability as a relatively stable coin.
Are you saying that when the bank 'loans' me say $250,000 "common coin[s]" that the bank is no longer able to use these for itself? That the bank must have this entire sum of currency 'in the vault', so to speak, before it can 'loan' to others?
My problem here is that the idea that currency is a commodity is sold to us from childhood. The idea that money is commodity-like* and expertly managed by men way smarter than us must be believed in order for banks to justify charging interest on 'loans'. No one would swallow the idea that we must additionally labour often the entire principal value of the homes we buy all to receive some paper that we could have printed ourselves for pennies.
If an actual commodity becomes currency, how are modern debt problems solved? You can't service your interest bearing BTC debts by borrowing more BTC if there aren't enough left in existence to borrow.
(*as opposed to its true and original meaning: a promise of future labour, a glorified IOU; see old banknotes from the Bank of England for modern vestiges of this understanding)
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HOLY **** 650 is the bottom! quick jump back on BTC. FAST!
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Sadly, it hard to see it go much lower with the high volume that has happened at this level, a stabilization under 500 would be the best that could happen. And then, the coin starts to be useful again!
Speculation is needed, bubbles are not. If no one puts money in the coin, then no merchant is ready to trade for it. The more merchant use it, the more it become used as a currency and the harder it is for a bubble to happen.
Another thing that needs to happen is that a big part of the trading (it has already happened in someway) goes out of mtgox. MtGox has always been the weakest technical link. It can't handle the volume.
I don't see why you guys don't understand distributed backing. The price is always backed at the current price or it would crashed indefinitely. That's why the crash is a good thing. People that owned coins that were not backing take there money out, those that are backing put there money back in right away.
This is how distributed backing works. Even when the price is very low, a person who bought it high and keeps it, is backing it for the value he bought in.
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On December 07 2013 09:48 Mstring wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 09:32 Shival wrote:On December 07 2013 09:10 Mstring wrote:On December 07 2013 08:48 Shival wrote:On December 07 2013 08:12 Mstring wrote:
Can someone explain to me why you want your 'currency' to have intrinsic value/to be a store of wealth/a commodity?
Money without intrinsic value allows for simple creation and destruction: you just enter a few numbers into a computer, or print a few pieces of paper. You can't print gold; you can't type Bitcoins into existence. No intrinsic value means it's worth nothing by itself, and very much a risky commodity to suddenly drop to zero worth without a centralized system regulating its worth. Something without value isn't a commodity at all, let alone a "risky" one. We're all sold the idea that money is a commodity with some value and thus it's justified for banks to charge interest on loaning it. If money has negligible intrinsic value, what exactly are you being loaned when you take out a bank loan? True, commodity was the wrong term to use. However, fiat money is in no way a commodity, and to my knowledge hasn't been said to be by any reputable economist. Indeed fiat currency is in no way a commodity except in cash form as kindling. I am wondering why people want their currency to be a commodity; how they think it will solve the problems we experience today. Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 09:32 Shival wrote:
You're being loaned a common coin that's been deemed acceptable payment and must be accepted in x country by law as payment. It's the law that gives a coin its status, and the central bank that handles its viability as a relatively stable coin. Are you saying that when the bank 'loans' me say $250,000 "common coin[s]" that the bank is no longer able to use these for itself? That the bank must have this entire sum of currency 'in the vault', so to speak, before it can 'loan' to others? My problem here is that the idea that currency is a commodity is sold to us from childhood. The idea that money is commodity-like* and expertly managed by men way smarter than us must be believed in order for banks to justify charging interest on 'loans'. No one would swallow the idea that we must additionally labour often the entire principal value of the homes we buy all to receive some paper that we could have printed ourselves for pennies. If an actual commodity becomes currency, how are modern debt problems solved? You can't service your interest bearing BTC debts by borrowing more BTC if there aren't enough left in existence to borrow. (*as opposed to its true and original meaning: a promise of future labour, a glorified IOU; see old banknotes from the Bank of England for modern vestiges of this understanding)
Well, yes, in part the bank cannot use those same $250,000. However, the bank can 'loan' $250,000 themselves at pretty much no rent at all. So, in essence they're spending money they don't have.
Agreed, I assume most people would see that as a problem.
Debt problems cannot be solved if a commodity becomes a currency, nearly every country would topple. In part our current financial world may be living on borrowed time, but at the same time, the world's economic growth is also due to that system. If we were spending a commodity with a finite amount, when one country is having economic growth, another would be in recession.
On December 07 2013 17:35 Chrono000 wrote:
HOLY **** 650 is the bottom! quick jump back on BTC. FAST!
$576 actually. Something tells me you're invested in BTC. What you're doing right now is exactly what I'm warning for, hyping the coin.
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EPT
