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On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time.
Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more.
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On April 03 2013 13:08 Ljas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time. Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more.
The same can be said about any other hobby/profession. What if we are to force everyone to take 2 years of programming courses because being a programmer is useful nowadays?
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On April 03 2013 13:09 achan1058 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 03 2013 13:08 Ljas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time. Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more. The same can be said about any other hobby/profession. What if we are to force everyone to take 2 years of programming courses because being a programmer is useful nowadays?
Finland can't afford a professional army, so I feel you don't have much of a point there.
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On April 03 2013 12:38 Mithhaike wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 10:34 Ghostcom wrote:On April 03 2013 10:12 Reason wrote:On April 03 2013 07:21 Enchanted wrote:On April 03 2013 07:05 Reason wrote:
I think every citizen should be forced to spend 1 year in military training with no strings attached.
Mental discipline and physical fitness are always going to benefit a population.
These people cannot be conscripted, you just hopefully have a nation of more productive and united citizens.
I would assume a greater number of people would decide to continue in the military after having experienced it too, and also those who decide otherwise can change their minds if the country is ever in dire need.
I'd suggest after finishing high school/formal education and immediately before college/university would be a good time to do this. Mandatory one year ? That's insane. Why is that insane? On April 03 2013 07:26 Glurkenspurk wrote:On April 03 2013 07:05 Reason wrote:
I think every citizen should be forced to spend 1 year in military training with no strings attached.
Mental discipline and physical fitness are always going to benefit a population.
These people cannot be conscripted, you just hopefully have a nation of more productive and united citizens.
I would assume a greater number of people would decide to continue in the military after having experienced it too, and also those who decide otherwise can change their minds if the country is ever in dire need.
I'd suggest after finishing high school/formal education and immediately before college/university would be a good time to do this. I'm a pacifist. I refuse to blindly take killing orders from old white people so I can gain some sort of bullshit "mental discipline." I'd rather spend time in a prison cell than ever do anything to support or work for the military. Forcing me into it isn't going to change that. Who said anything about killing orders? You think military training involves murder? On April 03 2013 07:27 Acritter wrote:On April 03 2013 07:05 Reason wrote:
I think every citizen should be forced to spend 1 year in military training with no strings attached.
Mental discipline and physical fitness are always going to benefit a population.
These people cannot be conscripted, you just hopefully have a nation of more productive and united citizens.
I would assume a greater number of people would decide to continue in the military after having experienced it too, and also those who decide otherwise can change their minds if the country is ever in dire need.
I'd suggest after finishing high school/formal education and immediately before college/university would be a good time to do this. I'd rather it be some kind of public service that may or may not be military. I still think only volunteers should go to the front lines (outside of some incomparable crisis, which hasn't happened in a long time for first-world countries), but public service would help break down social barriers and form a more united public. We don't need more soldiers, but we certainly need more public good. For the US, at least. I agree, only those who want to go to the front lines should go, that's what I posted. Public service could be a regular activity in the process also. There seems to be a degree of confusion over my suggestion. Military training does not involve killing people or going to the front lines =/ Military training however is a complete waste of time within the modern society. You are advocating that everyone should be forced to waste a year of their life, trudging around in the mud, doing mundane pointless tasks playing an adult version of boyscouts out of some misconceived perception that it will actually benefit society through "improved physical fitness and mental discipline" (whatever mental discipline is supposed to mean? Mindlessly following orders?). Society will benefit more from having everyone take an extra year of education than crawling in mud and generally people do not like being forced to do stuff. The conscription-based army is an archaic institution in the western part of the world which can really only be abolished too late. You are speaking from ignorance. I am from one of the few countries in the world that has forced conscription (2years full time+ 10+years on standby). Yes this is years of my life taken from me by law that I cant get back, but the benefits we get from it is intangible. There's the friends & buddies that i make during my NS life, there's the life experience of doing military things that civilian wont get to do. How could you quantify our time spent in service of our nations as playing an adult version of boyscouts. If you have no idea what is it like in a military life, please do not speak up like you know what we do.
You make friends doing anything that involves groups of people - especially in college, which is what you'd be doing otherwise.
The 'life experience' applies to doing anything out of normal routines.
Comparing it to an adult version of UYOs is probably the best comparison there is tbh.
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On April 03 2013 13:09 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 13:08 Ljas wrote:On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time. Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more. The same can be said about any other hobby/profession. What if we are to force everyone to take 2 years of programming courses because being a programmer is useful nowadays?
A.) That would be awesome
B.) Suicide rates would go up
C.) Evolution would be sped up as selective breeding intensifies
D.) .......
PROFIT!
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But seriously though, would people be as against government service if it was outside the military?
Say when they are 18 they need to serve as a congressional staff in order for the people of a country to know how their country is run. Or what if it is mandatory 6 months of being an intern at wall-street. Or 6 months/year at wherever in order to serve your country.
Is the problem against national service or is the problem against war?
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On April 03 2013 12:22 Microsloth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 10:34 Ghostcom wrote:On April 03 2013 10:12 Reason wrote:On April 03 2013 07:21 Enchanted wrote:On April 03 2013 07:05 Reason wrote:
I think every citizen should be forced to spend 1 year in military training with no strings attached.
Mental discipline and physical fitness are always going to benefit a population.
These people cannot be conscripted, you just hopefully have a nation of more productive and united citizens.
I would assume a greater number of people would decide to continue in the military after having experienced it too, and also those who decide otherwise can change their minds if the country is ever in dire need.
I'd suggest after finishing high school/formal education and immediately before college/university would be a good time to do this. Mandatory one year ? That's insane. Why is that insane? On April 03 2013 07:26 Glurkenspurk wrote:On April 03 2013 07:05 Reason wrote:
I think every citizen should be forced to spend 1 year in military training with no strings attached.
Mental discipline and physical fitness are always going to benefit a population.
These people cannot be conscripted, you just hopefully have a nation of more productive and united citizens.
I would assume a greater number of people would decide to continue in the military after having experienced it too, and also those who decide otherwise can change their minds if the country is ever in dire need.
I'd suggest after finishing high school/formal education and immediately before college/university would be a good time to do this. I'm a pacifist. I refuse to blindly take killing orders from old white people so I can gain some sort of bullshit "mental discipline." I'd rather spend time in a prison cell than ever do anything to support or work for the military. Forcing me into it isn't going to change that. Who said anything about killing orders? You think military training involves murder? On April 03 2013 07:27 Acritter wrote:On April 03 2013 07:05 Reason wrote:
I think every citizen should be forced to spend 1 year in military training with no strings attached.
Mental discipline and physical fitness are always going to benefit a population.
These people cannot be conscripted, you just hopefully have a nation of more productive and united citizens.
I would assume a greater number of people would decide to continue in the military after having experienced it too, and also those who decide otherwise can change their minds if the country is ever in dire need.
I'd suggest after finishing high school/formal education and immediately before college/university would be a good time to do this. I'd rather it be some kind of public service that may or may not be military. I still think only volunteers should go to the front lines (outside of some incomparable crisis, which hasn't happened in a long time for first-world countries), but public service would help break down social barriers and form a more united public. We don't need more soldiers, but we certainly need more public good. For the US, at least. I agree, only those who want to go to the front lines should go, that's what I posted. Public service could be a regular activity in the process also. There seems to be a degree of confusion over my suggestion. Military training does not involve killing people or going to the front lines =/ Military training however is a complete waste of time within the modern society. You are advocating that everyone should be forced to waste a year of their life, trudging around in the mud, doing mundane pointless tasks playing an adult version of boyscouts out of some misconceived perception that it will actually benefit society through "improved physical fitness and mental discipline" (whatever mental discipline is supposed to mean? Mindlessly following orders?). Society will benefit more from having everyone take an extra year of education than crawling in mud and generally people do not like being forced to do stuff. The conscription-based army is an archaic institution in the western part of the world which can really only be abolished too late. I'm pretty much insulted by this statement, and I'm sure any other serving member of a military would be as well. "waste a year of their life, trudging around in the mud, doing mundane pointless tasks playing an adult version of boyscouts out of some misconceived perception that it will actually benefit society through "improved physical fitness and mental discipline"" ^^ I'm a member of the Royal Canadian Navy. I've successfully completed Basic Training. It took 14 weeks. I believe everyone would benefit from taking this training. It's not an adult version of boy scouts, nor is it a bunch of crawling around in the mud. We do not mindlessly follow orders. We're trained to think rationally for ourselves, and only in very extreme cases would we be ordered into harms way, or to kill someone. Your misguided, ignorant view of what military's do seems like it's based on what you see in movies, specifically American military movies. You mention conscription based armies ar part of an archaic western society? I'm sure you've heard of South Korea since you're here on TL. I understand this is the internet and everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they generally choose to have very extreme opinions since there's no accountability for what they say, but your gross generalization of military members is a bit much. I'm from Canada. We're not forced to join, and we rarely speak out against other countries, but I'll be god damned if someone's gonna shit all over the forces and say we're a bunch of adult boy scouts. You have no idea what you're talking about. Discipline benefits us all. Without it, we're just a bunch of lazy fucks. Some people are born with it, others need to learn it, some never do. Eh?
You are right now telling me that you are insulted and that it should somehow matter to me - guess what: It doesn't, nor is it an argument that holds any value whatsoever.
Furthermore, why in the world do you take personal offence to criticism of a system? And do you actually have any arguments besides ad hominems?
You know nothing about me!
You might have served in Canada, but have you ever seen what a roadside bomb does to a person? To his family? To his friends? Through my work as an M.D. I have helped patch these kids up, so don't you dare come here and try to lecture me about how I base my opinions on what I have seen in movies.
You know NOTHING about me!
I can quote members of the royal guard from Denmark, have been stationed on Balkan, in Afghanistan in the Helmand-province, and in Iraq who will also agree with my sentiment that the conscription based army is an archaic system for western civilizations (note I did not say it was an archaic society, but I guess your were so busy with being insulted that actually comprehending what was written took too long for you?).
You bring up South Korea (but for some reason not Israel) - and even for those countries I am willing to argue that a conscription based army is wasted. A modern army can be run by a fairly small, professional outfit and in regions where there are no threat of attacks like North America and Europe it makes zero sense to throw money away by having conscriptions.
You are advocating to rob EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN of their freedom for a year with the best argument being it teaches you discipline - as if rectifying poor parenthood for a few somehow justifies the suppression of human rights for everyone.
My opinion is neither extreme, nor ignorant. Bring some actual arguments to the table to justify robbing everyone of a year of their lives or go away.
EDIT:
To the others repeating that I must be speaking from ignorance: No! See above. And stop the ad hominems and bring some arguments: What exactly is to be gained from the army which 1 year of any other activity won't gain you? Why do you believe it is okay to rob people of choice of how to live?
EDIT2:
I apologize for the comparison @Wombat - I actually used to be a scout as kid and leader of a group as a teenager. I even plan on being it again when I settle down more permanently so it was not with a light heart I wrote the comparison :p
EDIT3:
@ The poster above me: Personally it is for me an opposition to being told what to do with my life. I would rather spend that year or 6 months (which will still effectively be 1 year seeing how enrollment to universities are typically yearly) on bettering myself on a trade/skillset of my own choice.
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
On April 03 2013 13:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 13:09 achan1058 wrote:On April 03 2013 13:08 Ljas wrote:On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time. Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more. The same can be said about any other hobby/profession. What if we are to force everyone to take 2 years of programming courses because being a programmer is useful nowadays? A.) That would be awesome B.) Suicide rates would go up C.) Evolution would be sped up as selective breeding intensifies D.) ....... PROFIT! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But seriously though, would people be as against government service if it was outside the military? Say when they are 18 they need to serve as a congressional staff in order for the people of a country to know how their country is run. Or what if it is mandatory 6 months of being an intern at wall-street. Or 6 months/year at wherever in order to serve your country. Is the problem against national service or is the problem against war?
Just general dislike of nationalism for me.
I'm for making people do some kind of civic duty for welfare. From a purely personal experience it is so depressing beig on the unemployment scrap heap. Would destigmatise 'benefit scroungers' a little into the bargain
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I don't understand why everyone is calling for conscription for non-military reasons. Mine as well make the peace corps mandatory then...
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On April 03 2013 13:32 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 13:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 03 2013 13:09 achan1058 wrote:On April 03 2013 13:08 Ljas wrote:On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time. Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more. The same can be said about any other hobby/profession. What if we are to force everyone to take 2 years of programming courses because being a programmer is useful nowadays? A.) That would be awesome B.) Suicide rates would go up C.) Evolution would be sped up as selective breeding intensifies D.) ....... PROFIT! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But seriously though, would people be as against government service if it was outside the military? Say when they are 18 they need to serve as a congressional staff in order for the people of a country to know how their country is run. Or what if it is mandatory 6 months of being an intern at wall-street. Or 6 months/year at wherever in order to serve your country. Is the problem against national service or is the problem against war? Just general dislike of nationalism for me. I'm for making people do some kind of civic duty for welfare. From a purely personal experience it is so depressing beig on the unemployment scrap heap. Would destigmatise 'benefit scroungers' a little into the bargain
Its just a curiosity for me. Living in the US I don't have to deal with it, and so its a purely theoretical thing for me. I don't see why it would be useful for first world countries--but that doesn't mean its bad.
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On April 03 2013 13:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 13:32 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 03 2013 13:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 03 2013 13:09 achan1058 wrote:On April 03 2013 13:08 Ljas wrote:On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time. Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more. The same can be said about any other hobby/profession. What if we are to force everyone to take 2 years of programming courses because being a programmer is useful nowadays? A.) That would be awesome B.) Suicide rates would go up C.) Evolution would be sped up as selective breeding intensifies D.) ....... PROFIT! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But seriously though, would people be as against government service if it was outside the military? Say when they are 18 they need to serve as a congressional staff in order for the people of a country to know how their country is run. Or what if it is mandatory 6 months of being an intern at wall-street. Or 6 months/year at wherever in order to serve your country. Is the problem against national service or is the problem against war? Just general dislike of nationalism for me. I'm for making people do some kind of civic duty for welfare. From a purely personal experience it is so depressing beig on the unemployment scrap heap. Would destigmatise 'benefit scroungers' a little into the bargain Its just a curiosity for me. Living in the US I don't have to deal with it, and so its a purely theoretical thing for me. I don't see why it would be useful for first world countries--but that doesn't mean its bad.
It's the compulsory part that is bad. Then, there's the male only part, which makes it even worse. And no, luckily we don't have to deal with it in Canada neither.
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On April 03 2013 13:41 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 13:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 03 2013 13:32 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 03 2013 13:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 03 2013 13:09 achan1058 wrote:On April 03 2013 13:08 Ljas wrote:On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time. Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more. The same can be said about any other hobby/profession. What if we are to force everyone to take 2 years of programming courses because being a programmer is useful nowadays? A.) That would be awesome B.) Suicide rates would go up C.) Evolution would be sped up as selective breeding intensifies D.) ....... PROFIT! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But seriously though, would people be as against government service if it was outside the military? Say when they are 18 they need to serve as a congressional staff in order for the people of a country to know how their country is run. Or what if it is mandatory 6 months of being an intern at wall-street. Or 6 months/year at wherever in order to serve your country. Is the problem against national service or is the problem against war? Just general dislike of nationalism for me. I'm for making people do some kind of civic duty for welfare. From a purely personal experience it is so depressing beig on the unemployment scrap heap. Would destigmatise 'benefit scroungers' a little into the bargain Its just a curiosity for me. Living in the US I don't have to deal with it, and so its a purely theoretical thing for me. I don't see why it would be useful for first world countries--but that doesn't mean its bad. It's the compulsory part that is bad. Then, there's the male only part, which makes it even worse. And no, luckily we don't have to deal with it in Canada neither.
Its not always male only--girls do it in Israel to, and I'm assuming other countries as well. But yeah, I just can't wrap my mind fully on the compulsory part. If they really want able bodied men to be fit enough for war--couldn't they just make that be a physical education class in high school? (Or equivalent)
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On April 03 2013 13:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 13:41 achan1058 wrote:On April 03 2013 13:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 03 2013 13:32 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 03 2013 13:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 03 2013 13:09 achan1058 wrote:On April 03 2013 13:08 Ljas wrote:On April 03 2013 12:57 TJ31 wrote:
Like I posted already, 2 good friends of mine consider 1 year in the military as a complete and unpleasant waste of time. Having served alongside people who considered it a waste of time, I can say it's usually a disposition not gained from the active service, but one they had from the beginning. It's a waste of time if you're not willing to make it anything more. The same can be said about any other hobby/profession. What if we are to force everyone to take 2 years of programming courses because being a programmer is useful nowadays? A.) That would be awesome B.) Suicide rates would go up C.) Evolution would be sped up as selective breeding intensifies D.) ....... PROFIT! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But seriously though, would people be as against government service if it was outside the military? Say when they are 18 they need to serve as a congressional staff in order for the people of a country to know how their country is run. Or what if it is mandatory 6 months of being an intern at wall-street. Or 6 months/year at wherever in order to serve your country. Is the problem against national service or is the problem against war? Just general dislike of nationalism for me. I'm for making people do some kind of civic duty for welfare. From a purely personal experience it is so depressing beig on the unemployment scrap heap. Would destigmatise 'benefit scroungers' a little into the bargain Its just a curiosity for me. Living in the US I don't have to deal with it, and so its a purely theoretical thing for me. I don't see why it would be useful for first world countries--but that doesn't mean its bad. It's the compulsory part that is bad. Then, there's the male only part, which makes it even worse. And no, luckily we don't have to deal with it in Canada neither. Its not always male only--girls do it in Israel to, and I'm assuming other countries as well. But yeah, I just can't wrap my mind fully on the compulsory part. If they really want able bodied men to be fit enough for war--couldn't they just make that be a physical education class in high school? (Or equivalent)
An assumption easily proven false, I'm afraid.
edit: probably some, but definitely not in most
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I'm all for a mandatory enlistment time of no longer than 1 year for both sexes.
At worst, a year of service will beat the living shit out of every ounce of laziness out of you, make you a LOT more fit, and probably get you into the habbit of following a good routine.
Totally needed for today's young people, myself included.
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Mandatory service was still real in France 10 or 15yr ago (it was completly removed since). I never met a person that did something useful there.
All the experiences from mandatory service from my father and older cousins were:
-You do stupid shit for 6months to 1.5 year (cousin was 6months, father was 1.5yr)
-You learn to smoke... a lot.
And then you have my older brother (+17yr than me) that left the country, and study abroad, at 18, partially to avoid it
The idealized version where you learn self defense, how to shoot and save whatever is just not something real (maybe it is in some countries that are really threaten however).
So no.
On the other hand I have childhood friend, that joined the military. And are happy with it.
The problem is the mandatory part.
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1019 Posts
On April 03 2013 14:23 EngrishTeacher wrote:
I'm all for a mandatory enlistment time of no longer than 1 year for both sexes.
At worst, a year of service will beat the living shit out of every ounce of laziness out of you, make you a LOT more fit, and probably get you into the habbit of following a good routine.
Totally needed for today's young people, myself included.
Agreed, partly the reason why mandatory service can be a good thing. It's honestly what you make of the experience (which is true for pretty much everything else too). It's important to maintain a sense of civic duty, and even more important to keep the civilian-military relationship as strong as possible, because that will only leave the country better off.
Also, isn't the answer to OP obvious? If you live in a country with a high threat of invasion (ie israel or south korea), it only makes sense to have mandatory service for people in those places. Generalizing mandatory service to be "bad" is pretty ignorant, and that unfortunately seems to be the attitude a lot of people in the thread seem to have. If your country isn't located in a dangerous place and has mandatory service, that is a debate that you should be having with others in your country.
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I believe it should be required and anyone who is truly interested can PM and I'll write a lengthy response to your questions. I don't have the time right now to write my response.
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On April 03 2013 14:23 EngrishTeacher wrote:
At worst, a year of service will beat the living shit out of every ounce of laziness out of you, make you a LOT more fit, and probably get you into the habbit of following a good routine.
Totally needed for today's young people, myself included.
Not really. Not like it's a torture center or something, especially in civil countries.
Plus there's multiple ways to cheat (like "being sick" and waste some time in the hospital reading books). My 2 friends didn't changed much after that 1 year. Only thing that changed in 1 year for my friends who served is... now they don't like our government even more. No other changes, they are still good old slackers I know since I was a kid.
Yeah, they lost some weight there, but it didn't took too long to get some back.
On April 03 2013 15:15 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 14:23 EngrishTeacher wrote:
I'm all for a mandatory enlistment time of no longer than 1 year for both sexes.
At worst, a year of service will beat the living shit out of every ounce of laziness out of you, make you a LOT more fit, and probably get you into the habbit of following a good routine.
Totally needed for today's young people, myself included. Agreed, partly the reason why mandatory service can be a good thing. It's honestly what you make of the experience (which is true for pretty much everything else too). It's important to maintain a sense of civic duty, and even more important to keep the civilian-military relationship as strong as possible, because that will only leave the country better off. Also, isn't the answer to OP obvious? If you live in a country with a high threat of invasion (ie israel or south korea), it only makes sense to have mandatory service for people in those places. Generalizing mandatory service to be "bad" is pretty ignorant, and that unfortunately seems to be the attitude a lot of people in the thread seem to have. If your country isn't located in a dangerous place and has mandatory service, that is a debate that you should be having with others in your country.
Mandatory service can lead to just a few things in my opinion. A cheating and corruption.
People who don't want to serve seeking every possible ways to avoid it. I know, I did the same.
You can bribe a doctor, you can bribe people in universities, you can bribe someone from military as well.
Actually these days in my country, only people who are getting drafted are:
Dumbasses like my friends, who didn't planned stuff when they had time.
Poor people who can't afford a bribe of 5-8k$.
People who actually want to serve.
That's it, no one else is going to army here.
In fact it's that bad, so there even were thoughts about making those bribes legal. I mean, a man who don't want to go to army no matter what should pay some money to government and that's it, he's free. It was a while ago though.
I should also add, that because it's still mandatory here, most of civilians hate the army.
Mothers hate it because they are taking their sons. Young women hate it because they take their bfs/husbands. And ofc those who are getting drafted against their will hate it more than anyone.
In whole my life I didn't met a single person who weren't in military himself and liked military.
So I'm not sure about which civilian-military relationship you're talking about.
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On April 03 2013 15:15 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 14:23 EngrishTeacher wrote:
I'm all for a mandatory enlistment time of no longer than 1 year for both sexes.
At worst, a year of service will beat the living shit out of every ounce of laziness out of you, make you a LOT more fit, and probably get you into the habbit of following a good routine.
Totally needed for today's young people, myself included. Agreed, partly the reason why mandatory service can be a good thing. It's honestly what you make of the experience (which is true for pretty much everything else too). It's important to maintain a sense of civic duty, and even more important to keep the civilian-military relationship as strong as possible, because that will only leave the country better off. Also, isn't the answer to OP obvious? If you live in a country with a high threat of invasion (ie israel or south korea), it only makes sense to have mandatory service for people in those places. Generalizing mandatory service to be "bad" is pretty ignorant, and that unfortunately seems to be the attitude a lot of people in the thread seem to have. If your country isn't located in a dangerous place and has mandatory service, that is a debate that you should be having with others in your country.
All the physical training received vanes rather quickly, resulting in only a few "cycles" of conscribers being really useful for active duty. In fact that training could probably be done so quickly that should a war break out it would be possible to train all the needed amateur soldiers quickly enough for the peace-time conscription to have made little difference.
Thus you are effectively arguing that in exchange for minor (if any) military gains you are willing to institute modern day slavery. This is ignoring the economic and technological stifling that slowing down everyones education with 1 year is going to impose on a country. And in this day and age, wars are won by largely due to economy and tech, and the amount of people that can be fielded matters less and less.
Call that ignorant if you must - I call it rational and scientifically backed up. You are welcome to pull out the argument of citizens privilege and the ancient romans (a romantic notion I am not entirely in disagreement with), but we live in a vastly different time now and a citizens privilege is really more about paying his/hers taxes on time.
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Technology wins modern wars, not soldiers. If you really want to help defend your country, skip the army enlistment and go to university instead and take engineering or something that leads to furthering technology, then get into a weapons development research department. Your individual value when it comes to defending your country will be worth over 100 out of high school infantry grunts in modern warfare. There's also the benefit of being ahead in your career and able to help your country in other ways as well. Ways that are much more useful anyway.
Also, I find the arguments about making enlistment mandatory not for combat reasons, but for discipline reasons, pretty ridiculous. I don't disagree with the idea itself, but using the army for that is just silly. If we're going to force people into doing something just to train them in things like discipline, there are much better things they could be doing while learning that and methods that are much more efficient than the army. Not to mention more useful - both in terms of to society and training them for living in modern society.
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Just had a talk to my father about it, as he done 1 year compulsory service when he finished school. He said that at the time he felt the training was useless and a waste of time, but in the end it did teach him to be a more disciplined, respectable citizen.
One of the main things he talked about was how it taught teamwork and equality, saying how when you go into the training they take people from all levels of society, from the lowest of the low to the professionals and throw them all into one group. And from there they broke you all down to the same level through the training, and then slowly built them up, teaching respect, discipline and fitness.
The main story he keeps telling me whenever I ask him about this, which I do quite often is one about how they were forced to just run laps all the time. He told me that he was one of the fittest there and that he would always finish first, and that he would stand around waiting for the slower ones to finish. When they last person came the instructor would look at the time, call it shit and they would all have to run again, and they done this over and over. Eventually they found that the time wasn't based on the fastest person, but the slowest and that in the end they had the fittest people literally dragging the slowest people by their belts so that their feet were barely contacting the ground.
Overall he said that it taught him to look at things in the bigger picture, and not in the moment. Saying that the compulsory service which at the time seemed useless and unnecessary, turned out to be one of the most important things in his life which shaped who he is.
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EPT
