EPTPerhaps it would indeed be best to move on.
LGBT Rights and Gender Equality Thread - Page 9
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farvacola
United States18818 Posts
Perhaps it would indeed be best to move on. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On March 11 2013 13:42 dcemuser wrote: Extremely fucking disappointed in the TL community's responses in this thread. I think maybe a total of 4 people in the last three pages have thought through the implications of their posts before hitting submit. If you had to ask on Page 1 why the T should not part of LGBT, hopefully you don't have to ask now - the incredible lack of empathy in this thread is astounding. In just the last few pages, they've been compared to criminals, murderers, and drug dealers. I think somewhere along the way you forgot they were people. Nobody else is even trying to see outside their perspective in this thread, they're just vehemently defending their gut reaction - "oh god, trans people, ew". My god, you've got to be kidding. You've done more twisting than the rest of the people in this thread combined with an insinuation like that. The comparisons were in every way valid not because a transgender is anything at all like a criminal, murderer, or drug dealer, but because the discussion was on physical vs nonphysical attraction, and those examples are incredibly easy to get a point across on a nonphysical example. It was clear that someone was making the claim that you're a bigot if you stop liking someone (or claim to no longer be attracted to someone) because of nonphysical reasons such as transgender. The "extreme" examples used were easy counterpoints to THAT argument, not a comparison saying they are the same thing. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On March 11 2013 15:16 farvacola wrote: I can live with being told that I have a phobia; to be human is to be discomforted by the Other in one way or another. I also agree that uttering aloud a lack of attraction for transsexuals is not something to be done in general; in this case I simply felt that the label of "bigotry" did not quite fit the crime. Perhaps it would indeed be best to move on. This is fair enough - I can see that I was unfair in claiming bigotry. I apologize for that. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
How would you feel about LGBT themes in games? And I am not talking about overt stereotypes, "traps," or the bisexual girls largely there for fanservice, but serious issues that most LGBT and maybe heterosexual people can relate to. Of course, I am sure that there will be comments stating that LGBT themes do not matter, but before making a statement, watch this video If you are a literary critic and have played this game, there is a lot to argue about the analysis. However, the point remains that if Kanji was not gay, he would be a generic tough guy. What do you Liquidites think overall? | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 11 2013 14:50 shinosai wrote: I am wondering about this statement, especially the one about pregnancy. I'd seriously have to reconsider a relationship with someone who cannot give me kids. I'm not comfortable with 'alternative' methods of having children. That means there is little to no chance of me being interested in a trans woman. Same for cis women who are... infertile (so hard to find inoffensive words). Would that make me transphobic? I really want kids and a trans woman can't give me that. Not being able to get pregnant is part of being trans (maybe in the future it could be possible?), so by extension I will not be interested in a woman because she is trans, which the quoted post says is transphobic. I don't see why it would be though. | ||
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Shodaa
Canada404 Posts
On March 11 2013 15:30 lichter wrote: I am wondering about this statement, especially the one about pregnancy. I'd seriously have to reconsider a relationship with someone who cannot give me kids. I'm not comfortable with 'alternative' methods of having children. That means there is little to no chance of me being interested in a trans woman. Same for cis women who are... infertile (so hard to find inoffensive words). Would that make me transphobic? I really want kids and a trans woman can't give me that. Not being able to get pregnant is part of being trans (maybe in the future it could be possible?), so by extension I will not be interested in a woman because she is trans, which the quoted post says is transphobic. I don't see why it would be though. Yes, this is fine. It would be transphobia only if you would refuse to date a trans girl because she can't get pregnant and then be fine with dating a cis (non trans) girl who is infertile. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On March 11 2013 15:30 lichter wrote: I am wondering about this statement, especially the one about pregnancy. I'd seriously have to reconsider a relationship with someone who cannot give me kids. I'm not comfortable with 'alternative' methods of having children. That means there is little to no chance of me being interested in a trans woman. Same for cis women who are... infertile (so hard to find inoffensive words). Would that make me transphobic? I really want kids and a trans woman can't give me that. Not being able to get pregnant is part of being trans (maybe in the future it could be possible?), so by extension I will not be interested in a woman because she is trans, which the quoted post says is transphobic. I don't see why it would be though. No, that's not the point the poster was trying to make. It was defending against an argument often made - that trans women aren't really women because they can't get pregnant. If you don't want to date a trans woman because she can't have kids, that's not transphobic. | ||
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Sackings
Canada457 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 11 2013 15:36 shinosai wrote: No, that's not the point the poster was trying to make. It was defending against an argument often made - that trans women aren't really women because they can't get pregnant. If you don't want to date a trans woman because she can't have kids, that's not transphobic. I see. The way she phrases it doesn't really make it clear to me, so I was curious about it. :D | ||
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CimonTheStoic
3 Posts
On March 11 2013 01:40 Magic_Mike wrote: This thread actually makes me think not simply about the rights of gays and lesbians but about all "alternative" lifestyles that have their choices limited by outdated or nonsensical laws. For a long time now there has been a sort of movement for the LGBT community as a whole and they are much more accepted now than they were say 20 or even 10 years ago. Specifically what about Poly or polygamous couples. I don't mean kids who were force from a young age to marry and have sex with a man 10 times older than them but people who actively choose to have relationships with more than one person. Should a man or a woman be able to have more than one wife or husband if all parties involved sign on the dotted line? If marriage is now a civil affair and no longer a religious one, what about a poly "triad" with one man and two women. The man is married to the first and has one kid with her but is also in a relationship with the other and has 7 kids with her. He has to gets severely injured and is on life support. Woman one is his legal wife and has the choice of pulling the plug or not. Woman two arguably has more to lose if he could have pulled through but has no legal rights at all. Polygamous marriages have traditionally occurred among right-wing religious folks, so the struggle for polygamous equality is not normally included by equality advocates. The new popularity of polyamory among young liberal folk might change that. | ||
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CimonTheStoic
3 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On March 11 2013 15:42 Sackings wrote: ^ that video is awful. He basically concludes that non-LGBT characters are boring and incapable of being interesting. You cant make the assumption that every male character is a generic tough guy. If they are, thats because the devs failed at creating an interesting character. Requiring that character to be LGBT to be interesting ... lmfao Wow...seriously? LGBT does not always make the character interesting. There have been many LGBT characters who are dull and boring, most notably, Morrigan from Darkstalkers. And I do not think I or the video was stating that every male character is a generic tough guy. I was stating that Kanji's story would have been really boring and typical if you removed the gay theme. It would have been a story about a guy who kicks ass all day but likes to knit in his free time. Come on, we have seen that story over and over, haven't we? By adding the gay factor and having his masculinity attacked constantly, the situation changes completely. Of course if this appeared more often, maybe the theme would get boring and worn out just like the knight in shining armor saving the damsel in distress, vampires, and rags to riches but this is rather new to games. And there have been LGBT characters who are interesting/uninteresting even if their sexuality was not mentioned. Take Volgin and Vamp from the Metal Gear series. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On March 11 2013 16:00 Shiragaku wrote: Wow...seriously? LGBT does not always make the character interesting. There have been many LGBT characters who are dull and boring, most notably, Morrigan from Darkstalkers. And I do not think I or the video was stating that every male character is a generic tough guy. I was stating that Kanji's story would have been really boring and typical if you removed the gay theme. It would have been a story about a guy who kicks ass all day but likes to knit in his free time. Come on, we have seen that story over and over, haven't we? By adding the gay factor and having his masculinity attacked constantly, the situation changes completely. Of course if this appeared more often, maybe the theme would get boring and worn out just like the knight in shining armor saving the damsel in distress, vampires, and rags to riches but this is rather new to games. And there have been LGBT characters who are interesting/uninteresting even if their sexuality was not mentioned. Take Volgin and Vamp from the Metal Gear series. I think it heavily depends on the type of game (I'm not saying you'd debate that). Having such a theme play a constant role in a story can detract from the "epicness" of a plot because it's seen as an irrelevant feature. Why is so much emphasis placed on my character's sexuality when the game is about killing aliens. Of course, the premise is to include the sexuality in a relevant, "not unnecessary way" that in enhances the story, but that would generally have to take place in a very niche market (I would think). I can't see it finding itself into an RTS, FPS, etc., really only an RPG. Maybe a game like mass effect, or games that involve a constant discrimination theme, could intertwine sexual identity as more than a mere sidequest..? I can't place my finger on it, but it just seems far less appealing to me to have as a plot in my game. I think even with it being an original idea, I'd rather see more rehashed discrimination as the premise for a segregated society in my games :S. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
1. A transgender must not kiss, fuck or hug another man without identifying himself. 2. A transgender must respect the fact that most men don`t like to engage in sexual activities with another man, even though the other man may have pussy. 3. A transgender must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws. User was warned for this post | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
It is a lot easier to deal with an uncomfortable issue if you frame it that way, I can easily see gay people in the same light as autistic people, or people obsessed with something I don't understand, or small people. A human being with a deviation they cannot control, something that doesn't concern me and I can easily embrace. But I can never agree that being gay is normal, or that we are all a little gay deep inside as the LGBT agenda seems to suggest, and I can sense myself becoming hostile when someone is trying to push that concept onto me because I simply do not agree with it in a fundamental manner. When it comes to transgendered people, they need to understand their issue is simply an extreme one (to put it mildly) on the scale of things difficult to accept. Just like most people avoid hysterical women or men who solve matters through physical violence (we all know how much more common rednecks are compared to trannies), you guys and your unique set of issues are just too much to handle for your average Joe. It would probably be very beneficial to the transgendered community to date only other transgenders, since they understand each other well and embrace each other by default. Do transgender people actively seek out other transgendered people? And if no, why not? | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5275 Posts
On March 11 2013 19:13 Kickboxer wrote: As a moderately tolerant person (has gay acquaintances but not close friends, never ridicules gay people but would be horrified if future child turns out to be one) I think the main problem of the LGBT movement in western countries is their insistence on being perceived as "normal" as opposed to a group of people with a serious albeit 100% harmless defect. It is a lot easier to deal with an uncomfortable issue if you frame it that way, I can easily see gay people in the same light as autistic people, or people obsessed with something I don't understand, or small people. A human being with a deviation they cannot control, something that doesn't concern me and I can easily embrace. But I can never agree that being gay is normal, or that we are all a little gay deep inside as the LGBT agenda seems to suggest, and I can sense myself becoming hostile when someone is trying to push that concept onto me because I simply do not agree with it in a fundamental manner. When it comes to transgendered people, they need to understand their issue is simply an extreme one (to put it mildly) on the scale of things difficult to accept. Just like most people avoid hysterical women or men who solve matters through physical violence (we all know how much more common rednecks are compared to trannies), you guys and your unique set of issues are just too much to handle for your average Joe. It would probably be very beneficial to the transgendered community to date only other transgenders, since they understand each other well and embrace each other by default. Do transgender people actively seek out other transgendered people? And if no, why not? it's the old divide and conquer applied to humans. globalization was meant for economics not for humans so keeping them separated/isolated/detached must be a priority. | ||
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Sixthworld
United States7 Posts
In order for equality to exist, it has to be a reality for all people rather than a select group. Equality will never exist if it does for some and not for others. The social entwining of these movements was seemingly, at face value, a ploy to subversively undermine both their ideals, while hoping to prevent the accelerated disintegration of the patriarchal society that has reigned supreme since time immemorial. | ||
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Lynda
649 Posts
Do transgender people actively seek out other transgendered people? it does actually seem to happen fairly often, I know about quite a few MtF/MtF, MtF/FtM and FtM/FtM couples. And if no, why not? doubled transition costs is a huge issue | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
On March 11 2013 18:03 mdb wrote: I think that transgenders definitely should identify themselves before kissing, having sex or having any sexual activity with other man. Hereby I present you the three laws of the transgenders : 1. A transgender must not kiss, fuck or hug another man without identifying himself. 2. A transgender must respect the fact that most men don`t like to engage in sexual activities with another man, even though the other man may have pussy. 3. A transgender must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws. THEY ARE NOT A MAN. What does it take to beat this reality into your head? I've met men more feminine than women, women more masculine than men, transgender people who run the full spectrum themselves. What you are asking them to do is not only bigoted but also shows how insecure you are about your own sexuality. It's pitiful. Pathetic, even. | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
On March 11 2013 19:13 Kickboxer wrote: As a moderately tolerant person (has gay acquaintances but not close friends, never ridicules gay people but would be horrified if future child turns out to be one) I think the main problem of the LGBT movement in western countries is their insistence on being perceived as "normal" as opposed to a group of people with a serious albeit 100% harmless defect. It is a lot easier to deal with an uncomfortable issue if you frame it that way, I can easily see gay people in the same light as autistic people, or people obsessed with something I don't understand, or small people. A human being with a deviation they cannot control, something that doesn't concern me and I can easily embrace. But I can never agree that being gay is normal, or that we are all a little gay deep inside as the LGBT agenda seems to suggest, and I can sense myself becoming hostile when someone is trying to push that concept onto me because I simply do not agree with it in a fundamental manner. When it comes to transgendered people, they need to understand their issue is simply an extreme one (to put it mildly) on the scale of things difficult to accept. Just like most people avoid hysterical women or men who solve matters through physical violence (we all know how much more common rednecks are compared to trannies), you guys and your unique set of issues are just too much to handle for your average Joe. It would probably be very beneficial to the transgendered community to date only other transgenders, since they understand each other well and embrace each other by default. Do transgender people actively seek out other transgendered people? And if no, why not? Uh. You realise that this defect has survived species transitions? Nn fact we don't actually know what causes people to be gay. We just know it isn't societal - rates of LGBT people remain more or less constant despite societal pressure both for and against. The same argument was applied to black people only fairly recently, as well as other races. "Why don't they just date within their own race so as to avoid dealing with mine?" It was derided as an outdated ideal then and it is still outdated now. Understand this. If you've ever had any kind of relationship with an animal (meaning you've had a pet) what you are doing is more fundamentally unnatural than any relationship with another human. Why do we consider pet owning normal and gay people not? For the record, I am the proud owner of a lovely little yorkshire terrier. The point stands. | ||
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