On March 12 2013 02:55 AngryMag wrote: I don't really care one way or the other.
But I have to say that the importance of gay marriage, transgender rights gets overestimated very much in our societies. You have politically discussions in the western world several times a year for quite some time. These people get instrumentalized by the political sphere to avoid topics with much greater importance for the respective societies as a whole. Let's be honest how many percent of the population are directly influenced by legislature regarding gay marriage, transgender rights et al?
That isn't the point. The fight for Civil Rights turns upon the understanding that even the smallest, most marginalized group deserves advocacy and an equal place in society. Sure, relatively few people are gay or trans, but that matters little when it comes to the fight for equality.
On March 12 2013 00:59 WTFZerg wrote: So after reading a few pages of this thread, I find my self wondering if people understand what tolerance is.
You can think everyone is entitled to same rights while thinking some shit they do is weird. Think it's weird, whatever, who gives a fuck, just don't go as far as to try and deny someone rights.
I think this whole LGBTAXCBSEFDFASDJ thing is getting ridiculous, but that's just because the continued bolting on of additional identities is getting old to me. Everyone deserves equal rights, I agree. Put something in front of me and I'll sign it, but frankly, I get pretty tired of hearing about it all.
My little brother, or sister I suppose, is transgender (is that even the appropriate word?) and when I tried asking him about it he flat out told me he was not going to label himself for the benefit of others.
How can you have a sibling like that and not know the right term? And how can you express annoyance that the subject is brought up so often in society? It is hardly believable, honestly.
On March 12 2013 02:55 AngryMag wrote: I don't really care one way or the other.
But I have to say that the importance of gay marriage, transgender rights gets overestimated very much in our societies. You have politically discussions in the western world several times a year for quite some time. These people get instrumentalized by the political sphere to avoid topics with much greater importance for the respective societies as a whole. Let's be honest how many percent of the population are directly influenced by legislature regarding gay marriage, transgender rights et al?
But who are the people that care most about this? Some are happy to just give them their rights and move on, but it's others that keep resisting equality etc. and it's they that are to blame for making this an issue to begin with.
On March 12 2013 00:59 WTFZerg wrote: So after reading a few pages of this thread, I find my self wondering if people understand what tolerance is.
You can think everyone is entitled to same rights while thinking some shit they do is weird. Think it's weird, whatever, who gives a fuck, just don't go as far as to try and deny someone rights.
I think this whole LGBTAXCBSEFDFASDJ thing is getting ridiculous, but that's just because the continued bolting on of additional identities is getting old to me. Everyone deserves equal rights, I agree. Put something in front of me and I'll sign it, but frankly, I get pretty tired of hearing about it all.
My little brother, or sister I suppose, is transgender (is that even the appropriate word?) and when I tried asking him about it he flat out told me he was not going to label himself for the benefit of others.
How can you have a sibling like that and not know the right term? And how can you express annoyance that the subject is brought up so often in society? It is hardly believable, honestly.
Because my interest in the subject ends where hers does. You know what she labels her self as?
A person.
That's good enough for her and it's good enough for me. I don't really care what the "correct" term is.
On March 12 2013 00:59 WTFZerg wrote: So after reading a few pages of this thread, I find my self wondering if people understand what tolerance is.
You can think everyone is entitled to same rights while thinking some shit they do is weird. Think it's weird, whatever, who gives a fuck, just don't go as far as to try and deny someone rights.
I think this whole LGBTAXCBSEFDFASDJ thing is getting ridiculous, but that's just because the continued bolting on of additional identities is getting old to me. Everyone deserves equal rights, I agree. Put something in front of me and I'll sign it, but frankly, I get pretty tired of hearing about it all.
My little brother, or sister I suppose, is transgender (is that even the appropriate word?) and when I tried asking him about it he flat out told me he was not going to label himself for the benefit of others.
How can you have a sibling like that and not know the right term? And how can you express annoyance that the subject is brought up so often in society? It is hardly believable, honestly.
Because my interest in the subject ends where hers does. You know what she labels her self as?
A person.
That's good enough for her and it's good enough for me. I don't really care what the "correct" term is.
I wish society as a whole could subscribe to this little nugget of wisdom - one day I guess.
On March 11 2013 23:45 Alay wrote: It is usually acknowledged that sexuality binaries are only possible in the broadest sense (ie; I'm heterosexual, But I'm not attracted to every type of guy, etc.) Non-binary gender identified individuals (individuals who identify as genderqueer, bigender, gender fluid, etc) also exist too.
Overall, the idea of a true binary is kind of silly. People are so vastly different in both their gender presentation, and their sexual choices.
edit; and the T in LGBT is usually denoting Transgender, not Transsexual. Transgender is another umbrella-like term, encompassing Transsexual, Non-binary identified, Gender queer, Bigender, Gender fluid, Cross-dressing, etc individuals.
isn't transition just a means to fit in that silly binary gender role?. else why would you transition in the first place.
This is one of the first genuinely good questions asked in this thread about transgendered people.
Unfortunately, that also makes it the most difficult to answer because the answers vary wildly. For the rest of this post I'm going to restrict myself to discussing gender dysphoria in transmen and transwomen and exclude cross-dressing, genderqueer, and similar types.
I guess for starters, it is important to know that the public's idea of transgender is typically a male who transitions (takes hormones) and has surgery to alter their appearance to be as close to female as possible (the public constantly forgets that FtM trans people exist in similar numbers). To most, this looks like a person arbitrarily deciding to 'pretend' or 'switch' to another sex/gender (public doesn't differentiate) because of some presumed mental defect of the person in question or due to some weird fetishistic notions.
The reality is quite different. The current theory is that gender dysphoria starts in the womb due to imbalanced hormone levels in the mother's uterus. The child's development is slightly altered due to these hormone levels. After birth, the hormone levels are entirely controlled by the child itself and the child's gene expression, so something will seem "wrong" compared to before. Some people do not notice this until they are far older because 'how can you know that something is 'wrong' when you only ever remember it feeling one way?' However, other children insist, to an extreme degree in some cases, that something is wrong (though this is a bit of a tangent - transgender treatment in children is a different topic and more controversial).
This theory initially developed due to several strange findings where trans people had characteristics that matched their true gender and not their birth sex - a classic example is the digit ratio in the length of each finger on your hand relative to the other fingers. It is a certain range of ratios in males and a different range in females, and there are multiple studies showing a correlation between identifying as transgender and not having the digit ratio of your birth sex. It goes beyond just this and extends to various other patterns - some in brain scans and some in other physical traits.
On to the binary gender thing - when you boil it down, the biological component of gender is one's hormone levels and the social component of gender is one's expressions of two socially defined qualities (namely masculinity and femininity). In nature 90%+ of the time hormone levels fall into two different ranges - ranges we set aside for males and females. However, with science we know that hormone levels can fall outside those ranges, and you have women (referencing their sex) with the testosterone levels of an adult male and the estrogen/progesterone/etc levels of an adult female (though there are some pretty bizarre effects from those interactions - e.g. clitoromegaly) without having them ever do any form of hormone therapy.
In the case of trans people (I will use MtFs as an example), they desire the 'correct' hormone levels for their minds despite their body producing incorrect amounts, so they do hormone replacement therapy. For most transgendered people, this severely diminishes the effects of gender dysphoria. In fact, many stop there. They take estrogen and androgen blockers for the rest of their lives and keep everything else the way it was, hiding any physical changes as best they can (most noticeable to other people will be breast development). Self-acceptance is often said to be the hardest part of transitioning; there are some people who cannot or do not want to accept a different gender identity than the one they always thought they had, so they also take hormones and remain relatively the same.
However, all of them were still raised in a society using the binary gender system, and many do not want to continue to be forced to emphasize their masculinity to fit in. Additionally, some feel that since their mind and hormone levels are female, they might as well complete the changes as much as possible and live in the gender and sex that they feel they should be. Again, our society emphasizes that men and women must act in different ways and be clearly distinguishable from each other, so that is why many transgender people choose to match their body up to their gender identity. It's easier to be a transwoman than a male on female hormones who acts feminine, especially because the first can literally lead a normal life without anyone ever knowing that they are trans if they choose (aka "deep stealth").
TL;DR: There are different degrees of transitioning and people do it for very different reasons, but overall everyone is trying to relieve symptoms of gender dysphoria, whether hormonal or cultural. Again, good question, and hopefully this helps answer questions for multiple people (which is why I took a very roundabout approach to answering).
On March 12 2013 00:59 WTFZerg wrote: So after reading a few pages of this thread, I find my self wondering if people understand what tolerance is.
You can think everyone is entitled to same rights while thinking some shit they do is weird. Think it's weird, whatever, who gives a fuck, just don't go as far as to try and deny someone rights.
I think this whole LGBTAXCBSEFDFASDJ thing is getting ridiculous, but that's just because the continued bolting on of additional identities is getting old to me. Everyone deserves equal rights, I agree. Put something in front of me and I'll sign it, but frankly, I get pretty tired of hearing about it all.
My little brother, or sister I suppose, is transgender (is that even the appropriate word?) and when I tried asking him about it he flat out told me he was not going to label himself for the benefit of others.
How can you have a sibling like that and not know the right term? And how can you express annoyance that the subject is brought up so often in society? It is hardly believable, honestly.
Because my interest in the subject ends where hers does. You know what she labels her self as?
A person.
That's good enough for her and it's good enough for me. I don't really care what the "correct" term is.
Sadly, it's far more satisfying to open threads on internet forums and go on moral crusades on issues of semantics, to call everyone who says anything other than "oh yeah you're right" an oppressive bigot even when they're agreeing with you, or to disregard their opinion as "you're missing the point" even when they bring solid arguments and prove to be reasonable, empathic people. It's far more satisfying to create a strawman and demolish it, to misconstrue every opinion that is even slightly different from your own as being hateful and ignorant. It is far more satisfying to do any of that, than it is to treat a human being as a human being, no matter issues of sex, gender, race, ethnicity etc.
And in an interesting twist of irony, sometimes these internet crusaders are far more invested into the matter than the people they pretend to be representing and speaking for, sometimes to the point where said group are embarrassed to have them speaking on their behalf; indeed sometimes it is the knight, the self-perceived defender of moral justice that ends up being far more aggressive, more narrow-minded and hateful than the people he is accusing of bigotry.
Why can't we leave quests for self-aggrandisement aside and just treat human being as human beings?
Thank you WTFZerg, thank you to you and your sister. You've made my day, and I say this in the most positive and serious manner possible. Maybe there's still hope out there... maybe.
On March 12 2013 00:59 WTFZerg wrote: So after reading a few pages of this thread, I find my self wondering if people understand what tolerance is.
You can think everyone is entitled to same rights while thinking some shit they do is weird. Think it's weird, whatever, who gives a fuck, just don't go as far as to try and deny someone rights.
I think this whole LGBTAXCBSEFDFASDJ thing is getting ridiculous, but that's just because the continued bolting on of additional identities is getting old to me. Everyone deserves equal rights, I agree. Put something in front of me and I'll sign it, but frankly, I get pretty tired of hearing about it all.
My little brother, or sister I suppose, is transgender (is that even the appropriate word?) and when I tried asking him about it he flat out told me he was not going to label himself for the benefit of others.
How can you have a sibling like that and not know the right term? And how can you express annoyance that the subject is brought up so often in society? It is hardly believable, honestly.
Because my interest in the subject ends where hers does. You know what she labels her self as?
A person.
That's good enough for her and it's good enough for me. I don't really care what the "correct" term is.
Sadly, it's far more satisfying to open threads on internet forums and go on moral crusades on issues of semantics, to call everyone who says anything other than "oh yeah you're right" an oppressive bigot even when they're agreeing with you, or to disregard their opinion as "you're missing the point" even when they bring solid arguments and prove to be reasonable, empathic people. It's far more satisfying to create a strawman and demolish it, to misconstrue every opinion that is even slightly different from your own as being hateful and ignorant. It is far more satisfying to do any of that, than it is to treat a human being as a human being, no matter issues of sex, gender, race, ethnicity etc.
And in an interesting twist of irony, sometimes these internet crusaders are far more invested into the matter than the people they pretend to be representing and speaking for, sometimes to the point where said group are embarrassed to have them speaking on their behalf; indeed sometimes it is the knight, the self-perceived defender of moral justice that ends up being far more aggressive, more narrow-minded and hateful than the people he is accusing of bigotry.
Why can't we leave quests for self-aggrandisement aside and just treat human being as human beings?
Thank you WTFZerg, thank you to you and your sister. You've made my day, and I say this in the most positive and serious manner possible. Maybe there's still hope out there... maybe.
If you're referencing this thread it must be in a very roundabout manner. The earlier discussion was entirely about how some people in the thread said they would leave or be very upset on finding out that the person they were dating or had sex with was transgender - i.e. transphobia. Almost nothing you said applies to that discussion so I'll assume you're talking about other threads in other places.
But yes, if WTFZerg acts like that in real life, it is truly commendable.
On March 12 2013 00:59 WTFZerg wrote: So after reading a few pages of this thread, I find my self wondering if people understand what tolerance is.
You can think everyone is entitled to same rights while thinking some shit they do is weird. Think it's weird, whatever, who gives a fuck, just don't go as far as to try and deny someone rights.
I think this whole LGBTAXCBSEFDFASDJ thing is getting ridiculous, but that's just because the continued bolting on of additional identities is getting old to me. Everyone deserves equal rights, I agree. Put something in front of me and I'll sign it, but frankly, I get pretty tired of hearing about it all.
My little brother, or sister I suppose, is transgender (is that even the appropriate word?) and when I tried asking him about it he flat out told me he was not going to label himself for the benefit of others.
How can you have a sibling like that and not know the right term? And how can you express annoyance that the subject is brought up so often in society? It is hardly believable, honestly.
Because my interest in the subject ends where hers does. You know what she labels her self as?
A person.
That's good enough for her and it's good enough for me. I don't really care what the "correct" term is.
Sadly, it's far more satisfying to open threads on internet forums and go on moral crusades on issues of semantics, to call everyone who says anything other than "oh yeah you're right" an oppressive bigot even when they're agreeing with you, or to disregard their opinion as "you're missing the point" even when they bring solid arguments and prove to be reasonable, empathic people. It's far more satisfying to create a strawman and demolish it, to misconstrue every opinion that is even slightly different from your own as being hateful and ignorant. It is far more satisfying to do any of that, than it is to treat a human being as a human being, no matter issues of sex, gender, race, ethnicity etc.
And in an interesting twist of irony, sometimes these internet crusaders are far more invested into the matter than the people they pretend to be representing and speaking for, sometimes to the point where said group are embarrassed to have them speaking on their behalf; indeed sometimes it is the knight, the self-perceived defender of moral justice that ends up being far more aggressive, more narrow-minded and hateful than the people he is accusing of bigotry.
Why can't we leave quests for self-aggrandisement aside and just treat human being as human beings?
Thank you WTFZerg, thank you to you and your sister. You've made my day, and I say this in the most positive and serious manner possible. Maybe there's still hope out there... maybe.
If you're referencing this thread it must be in a very roundabout manner. The earlier discussion was entirely about how some people in the thread said they would leave or be very upset on finding out that the person they were dating or had sex with was transgender - i.e. transphobia. Almost nothing you said applies to that discussion so I'll assume you're talking about other threads in other places.
But yes, if WTFZerg acts like that in real life, it is truly commendable.
Don't get me wrong, I can be a pretty big dick and I'm not so much compassionate as I am apathetic, but I've never seen the point in denying someone rights because of something they have no control of, nor do I see the point in generating labels that seem to only incense the divisions between people.
On March 11 2013 23:45 Alay wrote: It is usually acknowledged that sexuality binaries are only possible in the broadest sense (ie; I'm heterosexual, But I'm not attracted to every type of guy, etc.) Non-binary gender identified individuals (individuals who identify as genderqueer, bigender, gender fluid, etc) also exist too.
Overall, the idea of a true binary is kind of silly. People are so vastly different in both their gender presentation, and their sexual choices.
edit; and the T in LGBT is usually denoting Transgender, not Transsexual. Transgender is another umbrella-like term, encompassing Transsexual, Non-binary identified, Gender queer, Bigender, Gender fluid, Cross-dressing, etc individuals.
isn't transition just a means to fit in that silly binary gender role?. else why would you transition in the first place.
transition isn't to fit in (or at least if you want to be mentally healthy it shouldn't be). But just because gender (and gender expression) is a spectrum, doesn't mean that everyone fits in between.
For me, I identify so strongly on the woman/feminine part of the spectrum, that for me to not to transition, or to retain masculine features just to make a statement would be a mistake. That said, I know some trans women who are super butch or super femme, some who are straight or lesbian or bisexual or asexual, and to a lesser extent I know some genderqueer people as well.
Really it's about being who you are. If you happen to fall on either end of the spectrum, then that's where you fall.
On March 12 2013 00:59 WTFZerg wrote: So after reading a few pages of this thread, I find my self wondering if people understand what tolerance is.
You can think everyone is entitled to same rights while thinking some shit they do is weird. Think it's weird, whatever, who gives a fuck, just don't go as far as to try and deny someone rights.
I think this whole LGBTAXCBSEFDFASDJ thing is getting ridiculous, but that's just because the continued bolting on of additional identities is getting old to me. Everyone deserves equal rights, I agree. Put something in front of me and I'll sign it, but frankly, I get pretty tired of hearing about it all.
My little brother, or sister I suppose, is transgender (is that even the appropriate word?) and when I tried asking him about it he flat out told me he was not going to label himself for the benefit of others.
How can you have a sibling like that and not know the right term? And how can you express annoyance that the subject is brought up so often in society? It is hardly believable, honestly.
Because my interest in the subject ends where hers does. You know what she labels her self as?
A person.
That's good enough for her and it's good enough for me. I don't really care what the "correct" term is.
Sadly, it's far more satisfying to open threads on internet forums and go on moral crusades on issues of semantics, to call everyone who says anything other than "oh yeah you're right" an oppressive bigot even when they're agreeing with you, or to disregard their opinion as "you're missing the point" even when they bring solid arguments and prove to be reasonable, empathic people. It's far more satisfying to create a strawman and demolish it, to misconstrue every opinion that is even slightly different from your own as being hateful and ignorant. It is far more satisfying to do any of that, than it is to treat a human being as a human being, no matter issues of sex, gender, race, ethnicity etc.
And in an interesting twist of irony, sometimes these internet crusaders are far more invested into the matter than the people they pretend to be representing and speaking for, sometimes to the point where said group are embarrassed to have them speaking on their behalf; indeed sometimes it is the knight, the self-perceived defender of moral justice that ends up being far more aggressive, more narrow-minded and hateful than the people he is accusing of bigotry.
Why can't we leave quests for self-aggrandisement aside and just treat human being as human beings?
Thank you WTFZerg, thank you to you and your sister. You've made my day, and I say this in the most positive and serious manner possible. Maybe there's still hope out there... maybe.
On March 11 2013 23:45 Alay wrote: It is usually acknowledged that sexuality binaries are only possible in the broadest sense (ie; I'm heterosexual, But I'm not attracted to every type of guy, etc.) Non-binary gender identified individuals (individuals who identify as genderqueer, bigender, gender fluid, etc) also exist too.
Overall, the idea of a true binary is kind of silly. People are so vastly different in both their gender presentation, and their sexual choices.
edit; and the T in LGBT is usually denoting Transgender, not Transsexual. Transgender is another umbrella-like term, encompassing Transsexual, Non-binary identified, Gender queer, Bigender, Gender fluid, Cross-dressing, etc individuals.
isn't transition just a means to fit in that silly binary gender role?. else why would you transition in the first place.
This is one of the first genuinely good questions asked in this thread about transgendered people.
Unfortunately, that also makes it the most difficult to answer because the answers vary wildly. For the rest of this post I'm going to restrict myself to discussing gender dysphoria in transmen and transwomen and exclude cross-dressing, genderqueer, and similar types.
I guess for starters, it is important to know that the public's idea of transgender is typically a male who transitions (takes hormones) and has surgery to alter their appearance to be as close to female as possible (the public constantly forgets that FtM trans people exist in similar numbers). To most, this looks like a person arbitrarily deciding to 'pretend' or 'switch' to another sex/gender (public doesn't differentiate) because of some presumed mental defect of the person in question or due to some weird fetishistic notions.
The reality is quite different. The current theory is that gender dysphoria starts in the womb due to imbalanced hormone levels in the mother's uterus. The child's development is slightly altered due to these hormone levels. After birth, the hormone levels are entirely controlled by the child itself and the child's gene expression, so something will seem "wrong" compared to before. Some people do not notice this until they are far older because 'how can you know that something is 'wrong' when you only ever remember it feeling one way?' However, other children insist, to an extreme degree in some cases, that something is wrong (though this is a bit of a tangent - transgender treatment in children is a different topic and more controversial).
This theory initially developed due to several strange findings where trans people had characteristics that matched their true gender and not their birth sex - a classic example is the digit ratio in the length of each finger on your hand relative to the other fingers. It is a certain range of ratios in males and a different range in females, and there are multiple studies showing a correlation between identifying as transgender and not having the digit ratio of your birth sex. It goes beyond just this and extends to various other patterns - some in brain scans and some in other physical traits.
On to the binary gender thing - when you boil it down, the biological component of gender is one's hormone levels and the social component of gender is one's expressions of two socially defined qualities (namely masculinity and femininity). In nature 90%+ of the time hormone levels fall into two different ranges - ranges we set aside for males and females. However, with science we know that hormone levels can fall outside those ranges, and you have women (referencing their sex) with the testosterone levels of an adult male and the estrogen/progesterone/etc levels of an adult female (though there are some pretty bizarre effects from those interactions - e.g. clitoromegaly) without having them ever do any form of hormone therapy.
In the case of trans people (I will use MtFs as an example), they desire the 'correct' hormone levels for their minds despite their body producing incorrect amounts, so they do hormone replacement therapy. For most transgendered people, this severely diminishes the effects of gender dysphoria. In fact, many stop there. They take estrogen and androgen blockers for the rest of their lives and keep everything else the way it was, hiding any physical changes as best they can (most noticeable to other people will be breast development). Self-acceptance is often said to be the hardest part of transitioning; there are some people who cannot or do not want to accept a different gender identity than the one they always thought they had, so they also take hormones and remain relatively the same.
However, all of them were still raised in a society using the binary gender system, and many do not want to continue to be forced to emphasize their masculinity to fit in. Additionally, some feel that since their mind and hormone levels are female, they might as well complete the changes as much as possible and live in the gender and sex that they feel they should be. Again, our society emphasizes that men and women must act in different ways and be clearly distinguishable from each other, so that is why many transgender people choose to match their body up to their gender identity. It's easier to be a transwoman than a male on female hormones who acts feminine, especially because the first can literally lead a normal life without anyone ever knowing that they are trans if they choose (aka "deep stealth").
TL;DR: There are different degrees of transitioning and people do it for very different reasons, but overall everyone is trying to relieve symptoms of gender dysphoria, whether hormonal or cultural. Again, good question, and hopefully this helps answer questions for multiple people (which is why I took a very roundabout approach to answering).
On March 11 2013 23:45 Alay wrote: It is usually acknowledged that sexuality binaries are only possible in the broadest sense (ie; I'm heterosexual, But I'm not attracted to every type of guy, etc.) Non-binary gender identified individuals (individuals who identify as genderqueer, bigender, gender fluid, etc) also exist too.
Overall, the idea of a true binary is kind of silly. People are so vastly different in both their gender presentation, and their sexual choices.
edit; and the T in LGBT is usually denoting Transgender, not Transsexual. Transgender is another umbrella-like term, encompassing Transsexual, Non-binary identified, Gender queer, Bigender, Gender fluid, Cross-dressing, etc individuals.
isn't transition just a means to fit in that silly binary gender role?. else why would you transition in the first place.
transition isn't to fit in (or at least if you want to be mentally healthy it shouldn't be). But just because gender (and gender expression) is a spectrum, doesn't mean that everyone fits in between.
For me, I identify so strongly on the woman/feminine part of the spectrum, that for me to not to transition, or to retain masculine features just to make a statement would be a mistake. That said, I know some trans women who are super butch or super femme, some who are straight or lesbian or bisexual or asexual, and to a lesser extent I know some genderqueer people as well.
Really it's about being who you are. If you happen to fall on either end of the spectrum, then that's where you fall.
so lets talk about dualism. on one side you know who you are (as intrinsic? value determined by "biological factors that may influence gender identity include pre- and post-natal hormone levels and genetic makeup?" <- wiki) and on the other side you know what norm society wants you to follow. the first part means everyone must have that innate/intrinsic value of what they are (true females/males included) while the second part shows, obviously, how social norms/restrictions do not help you.
questions: - if the already established social norms do help a majority of people ((i'm equating here feminism and male*ism with skills learned during childhood (like playing an instrument, playing sports, learning sciences and so on) which one would use later in life to better his/hers well being), wouldn't pushing for a gender neutrality mean less aptitudes to use to achieve that well being?. (ex: women are using their socially taught femininity to attract the men+money. i know there is a lot of stigma about that practice and that women are more brain then pretty faces but that still does not invalidate my point. also, men using their physical qualities to have a career in sports. those were the 2 most bigoted examples i could find).
- from your pov, what would an ideal solution look like? (getting past the fact that you think of yourselves trapped in a wrong body): being accepted for who you are and how you look like, being (partially) integrated into the respective norm (male/female) after surgery/hormone therapy or having your own gender category (legally acknokledged) *i realize that question is really hard to answer truthfully since taking social pressure out of the picture, the effects of it on a possible answer, can't really be quantified.
^ I'd take option two (as I am now.) Being regarded as a third gender would defeat the purpose of transitioning all together for me. Male body wasn't working so well for me either, and societal pressures aside I'd have probably transitioned anyways ("stranded island" question)
Just a note, the "trapped in the wrong body" thing is a true narrative for some, but not for the majority of us. We all have different stories of how we experience our gender and there is no single narrative that completely captures the trans* experience.
For me, I am not a "woman trapped in a man's body." I am just a lot happier as a girl. That's all.
In the words of Natalie Reed:
Truthfully, you’re always going to be able to find little “what ifs”. Little uncertainties. Little bits and pieces of yourself that MAYBE aren’t TOTALLY in line with the gender to which you’re transitioning (or wish to transition). Aspects of who you are that don’t fit into the archetypal, perfect, “true transsexual” narrative. Nobody fits that narrative perfectly. And yeah, maybe, philosophically speaking, a given trans woman might on some level “really be a dude” and a given trans man might in some way “really be a chick”. But you know, even if that IS true of yourself, and you aren’t “really trans” or aren’t “trans enough”… whatever parts of yourself, whatever fragments of you might “really” be cis or “really” your assigned sex, they really don’t mean a damn thing beyond what they mean for you. And frankly, if being “really” cis and “really” your assigned sex, playing along with who you “really” are, isn’t doing a sufficient job of making you happy and well and at home in your body, then you should tell it to go fuck itself. Go ahead and give yourself permission to “be something you’re not”, proof or no proof, if that’s what’s going to give you a chance at some semblance of happiness, comfort and fulfillment in this life. That’s all we’ve got, after all. And no one gets to judge your identity and its sincerity and legitimacy but you.
Dont realy get this tbh, are there no laws against discrimination already,wich would prevent anny unequall treatment in most situations? Besides the gay mariage i realy dont see what other rights people are looking for? (i realy dont know this so if someone could list them i would apreciate, i didnt see them annywhere listed in the thread either) There will always be some small differences btw, but they have little to do with discrimination. Transgenders wont be able to compete in womens leagues in most sports for example but that is not what this thread is about i guess. Annyway:if annyone could give me a small list of "hot" isues for transgender equality i would be happy. As far as i can see now it is "only" the gay mariage and things that are connected to that (adopting children)
dcemuser United States. March 12 2013 03:56. Posts 2662
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Ty for this post, that was quiet informative. Didnt realise there was so much science behind it, my opinnion about transgender in general became a lot more postive i have to admit.
On March 12 2013 08:37 shinosai wrote: Just a note, the "trapped in the wrong body" thing is a true narrative for some, but not for the majority of us. We all have different stories of how we experience our gender and there is no single narrative that completely captures the trans* experience.
For me, I am not a "woman trapped in a man's body." I am just a lot happier as a girl. That's all.
Truthfully, you’re always going to be able to find little “what ifs”. Little uncertainties. Little bits and pieces of yourself that MAYBE aren’t TOTALLY in line with the gender to which you’re transitioning (or wish to transition). Aspects of who you are that don’t fit into the archetypal, perfect, “true transsexual” narrative. Nobody fits that narrative perfectly. And yeah, maybe, philosophically speaking, a given trans woman might on some level “really be a dude” and a given trans man might in some way “really be a chick”. But you know, even if that IS true of yourself, and you aren’t “really trans” or aren’t “trans enough”… whatever parts of yourself, whatever fragments of you might “really” be cis or “really” your assigned sex, they really don’t mean a damn thing beyond what they mean for you. And frankly, if being “really” cis and “really” your assigned sex, playing along with who you “really” are, isn’t doing a sufficient job of making you happy and well and at home in your body, then you should tell it to go fuck itself. Go ahead and give yourself permission to “be something you’re not”, proof or no proof, if that’s what’s going to give you a chance at some semblance of happiness, comfort and fulfillment in this life. That’s all we’ve got, after all. And no one gets to judge your identity and its sincerity and legitimacy but you.
Can you explain that? Like, I just spent the weekend watching adaptions of Jane Austen novels and I never worry about whether this is in line with my gender. Is it that if you transition you get totally paranoid and you want to have 100% parity?
On March 11 2013 19:13 Kickboxer wrote: As a moderately tolerant person (has gay acquaintances but not close friends, never ridicules gay people but would be horrified if future child turns out to be one) I think the main problem of the LGBT movement in western countries is their insistence on being perceived as "normal" as opposed to a group of people with a serious albeit 100% harmless defect.
What if you would apply the same logic to another sensitive issue: "I would never ridicule black people, but I'd be horrified if my future child would turn out to be one." (yes, this is a joke :p)
I don't really think there's anything wrong with the statement. I would also much prefer much children to be heterosexual, if I could somehow have a choice. Just as I'd prefer my children to be born with 10 fingers. Not something they can control, and lack of that trait won't make me love them any less, but I'd still prefer it. I'd also prefer my children to be social, attractive, etc.
On March 12 2013 08:17 xM(Z wrote: - if the already established social norms do help a majority of people ((i'm equating here feminism and male*ism with skills learned during childhood (like playing an instrument, playing sports, learning sciences and so on) which one would use later in life to better his/hers well being), wouldn't pushing for a gender neutrality mean less aptitudes to use to achieve that well being?. (ex: women are using their socially taught femininity to attract the men+money. i know there is a lot of stigma about that practice and that women are more brain then pretty faces but that still does not invalidate my point. also, men using their physical qualities to have a career in sports. those were the 2 most bigoted examples i could find).
I think ideally that you wouldn't actually restrict those skills during childhood, but instead encourage all children to explore all of them somewhat equally. You could even combine boys and girls in sports up to a certain age because when they're that young, the physical strength differences are minimal at best. The most important developmental years are the first four or so anyway, so while de-emphasizing gender roles past that age is good, it isn't nearly as important.
On March 12 2013 08:17 xM(Z wrote: - from your pov, what would an ideal solution look like? (getting past the fact that you think of yourselves trapped in a wrong body): being accepted for who you are and how you look like, being (partially) integrated into the respective norm (male/female) after surgery/hormone therapy or having your own gender category (legally acknokledged) *i realize that question is really hard to answer truthfully since taking social pressure out of the picture, the effects of it on a possible answer, can't really be quantified.
This widely varies. I guess the best way to put is it that (in the case of transmen/transwomen) they do not ever -want- to be transgender. They want to be cisgendered in the correct gender. Being transgendered is just the closest that they can get to that. So most transgender people would pick #2 (though they'd want full integration into the respective norm, or as close as possible).
However, this is far from the only view. Some would just want to be accepted as they are (despite that they cannot pass a man or a woman), and a few want to abolish the binary the gender system entirely. There is a sizable minority of the transgender population (outside transmen/transwomen) who identify as female (and whose birth sex is female) who have sexual reassignment surgery to change their genitalia to match males. They continue to take female hormones and to act female, but no longer have female genitalia. There are also a few who do the opposite (men who identify as male but change their sexual organs to female). Some genderqueer people insist on the neutral pronouns "sie" (or "ze") and "hir".
In a way, transgender as an umbrella term has some of the same problems that LGBT has. In LGBT's case, the majority are LGB and just want to be accepted and make small changes in the existing system, while transgender has entirely different concerns and they are much harder for the public (and even other LGB people) to understand. In transgender's case, the majority are the transmen and transwomen who just want to be accepted into their true gender and would like small changes in the existing system, while the other cases (genderqueer, bigendered, etc) have entirely different concerns and are much harder for the public (and even other transgender people) to understand.
On March 11 2013 19:13 Kickboxer wrote: As a moderately tolerant person (has gay acquaintances but not close friends, never ridicules gay people but would be horrified if future child turns out to be one) I think the main problem of the LGBT movement in western countries is their insistence on being perceived as "normal" as opposed to a group of people with a serious albeit 100% harmless defect.
What if you would apply the same logic to another sensitive issue: "I would never ridicule black people, but I'd be horrified if my future child would turn out to be one." (yes, this is a joke :p)
I don't really think there's anything wrong with the statement. I would also much prefer much children to be heterosexual, if I could somehow have a choice. Just as I'd prefer my children to be born with 10 fingers. Not something they can control, and lack of that trait won't make me love them any less, but I'd still prefer it. I'd also prefer my children to be social, attractive, etc.
To be fair, your statement and his are quite different, especially considering his use of the word "horrified" (and his statements in the unquoted paragraph that follows the quoted one). It is human to have unreasonable expectations (to a certain extent) but as a parent you can't let that be expressed (ever) to your child that you are upset that they are different from what you would have liked.
Also, in terms of analogies, your second one about social/attractive/etc is far better than your first.
On March 11 2013 19:13 Kickboxer wrote: As a moderately tolerant person (has gay acquaintances but not close friends, never ridicules gay people but would be horrified if future child turns out to be one) I think the main problem of the LGBT movement in western countries is their insistence on being perceived as "normal" as opposed to a group of people with a serious albeit 100% harmless defect.
What if you would apply the same logic to another sensitive issue: "I would never ridicule black people, but I'd be horrified if my future child would turn out to be one." (yes, this is a joke :p)
I don't really think there's anything wrong with the statement. I would also much prefer much children to be heterosexual, if I could somehow have a choice. Just as I'd prefer my children to be born with 10 fingers. Not something they can control, and lack of that trait won't make me love them any less, but I'd still prefer it. I'd also prefer my children to be social, attractive, etc.
To be fair, your statement and his are quite different, especially considering his use of the word "horrified" (and his statements in the unquoted paragraph that follows the quoted one). It is human to have unreasonable expectations (to a certain extent) but as a parent you can't let that be expressed (ever) to your child that you are upset that they are different from what you would have liked.
Also, in terms of analogies, your second one about social/attractive/etc is far better than your first.
No no, it's a joke, since being horrified your child is going to be black is obviously silly since you do have control over that outcome, so to say. :o
On March 12 2013 08:46 Rassy wrote: Dont realy get this tbh, are there no laws against discrimination already,wich would prevent anny unequall treatment in most situations? Besides the gay mariage i realy dont see what other rights people are looking for? (i realy dont know this so if someone could list them i would apreciate, i didnt see them annywhere listed in the thread either) There will always be some small differences btw, but they have little to do with discrimination. Transgenders wont be able to compete in womens leagues in most sports for example but that is not what this thread is about i guess. Annyway:if annyone could give me a small list of "hot" isues for transgender equality i would be happy. As far as i can see now it is "only" the gay mariage and things that are connected to that (adopting children)
dcemuser United States. March 12 2013 03:56. Posts 2662
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Ty for this post, that was quiet informative. Didnt realise there was so much science behind it, my opinnion about transgender in general became a lot more postive i have to admit.
Trans issues currently (what I'd put anyways):
Lack of anti-discrimination laws. In many states you can be fired on the spot for being trans, and there's no legal repercussions. Trans people have died because they've been denied medical treatment in emergency situations based on being trans alone. Housing discrimination still happens way too much. Even prison placements and the like can be pretty horrific.
Bathroom restrictions. There's many cases where students/workers are forced to use their gender-assigned-at-birth bathrooms, regardless of their physical appearance, genital situation, etc. This is usually drummed up by some fear that trans people are secretly just trying to get into places to rape people.
Medical restrictions. In many situations, insurance companies will completely deny coverage related to transition medical costs, including hormones, psychiatric consultation, surgeries, etc. Which is, in my subjective opinion, completely fucking utter bullshit.
Marriage laws. Even many straight trans couples can't marry due to "technically gay" laws. It ends up in some states (such as Ohio) that trans people can't marry anyone (marrying same gender = gay. marrying someone of opposite gender = technically gay. zzz)
Media portrayal. Not really legal based, but society still enjoys mocking the hell out of trans people (trans women, more specifically.) This leads to a lot of demonization and violence.
That's just a quick few. There's probably more I can't think of right now. Currently in many parts of the United States, trans people have it pretty shit. Probably why the suicide rate is like 25-50%.
EPT
with skills learned during childhood (like playing an instrument, playing sports, learning sciences and so on) which one would use later in life to better his/hers well being), wouldn't pushing for a gender neutrality mean less aptitudes to use to achieve that well being?. (ex: women are using their socially taught femininity to attract the men+money. i know there is a lot of stigma about that practice and that women are more brain then pretty faces but that still does not invalidate my point. also, men using their physical qualities to have a career in sports. those were the 2 most bigoted examples i could find).
