LGBT Rights and Gender Equality Thread - Page 8

On March 11 2013 13:07 shinosai wrote:


See why the murder example is disingenuous.

It's bigotry because it's attached to transphobic beliefs, such as the belief that trans women aren't "real" women.

On March 11 2013 12:41 shinosai wrote:


I'll do my best to answer this question one more time. I feel like you are conflating two completely different things when you say that I'm calling one group a bigot and not the rest. I'll try to be as clear as possible.

First: Not being attracted to transgendered women is okay (even though I do not think this is possible without meeting EVERY transgendered woman in the world, whatever, I don't care). Not being attracted to black people is okay. Not being attracted to religious people is okay. Not being attracted to obese people is okay. Not being attracted to any group of people is perfectly okay. Not being attracted to guys is okay.

What is NOT okay is when you ARE attracted to a particular person, then you find out a part of their history that has no realistic bearing on who they are as a person, and decide after the fact that you are not attracted to this person. What is NOT okay is deciding that you won't date a transgendered person because they "used" to be a guy. What is NOT okay is saying you won't date a person because they are transsexual. What IS okay is saying you met a particular transsexual and decided you did not want to pursue relations with them for whatever reason (maybe they have a penis, maybe they are a jerk, whatever - IT'S OKAY if you don't like them because of that).

The fact is, and the argument I've been making: Transsexual is not a physical property that you can or cannot be attracted to. It's a part of a persons history that has NO relevance to who they are today. It's not like murder (people who have a criminal history often repeat them, I feel this is a disingenuous analogy).

Again, with the black analogy. You found this black girl perfectly attractive, you liked her, you slept with her, then all of a sudden you're mad because you found out she's black and you're not attracted to black people. Newsflash, you are attracted to black people, you just have internalized racism. Same thing with transsexuals. Newsflash, you ARE attracted to transsexuals, you just have internalized transphobia.

It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual.

On March 11 2013 13:20 Severedevil wrote:
A person's past choices are crucial to understanding that person. The choices that go into SRS are huge and life-changing; to pretend that we should not consider them when evaluating potential mates... is extreme, to say the least.


I don't consider visibly Hispanic people to be white, or men shorter than 5'11 to be tall. Is this also bigotry? Am I bigoted if I do not adopt another person's choice of categories?

On March 11 2013 13:31 shinosai wrote:


The amount of analogies in this thread is driving me crazy. The experience of gender identity has been reduced to qualities like tallness or weight.

I apologize to any LBGT people here, but I am tired, and I feel I am trying to argue with too many people. I'm trans, and I'm a woman, and yes, if you tell me I'm not, I think you're transphobic. And no, it's not the same thing as claiming I'm tall when I'm short, but I don't even know how to explain the difference at the moment. Or maybe, I don't want to. Because I don't feel like I should have to defend my fucking existence.

I'm done - I just can't do this anymore. Sorry.

On March 11 2013 14:01 Shiragaku wrote:
Actually, he is defending his existence not on the grounds that he is a person because all of us acknowledge that (or should), the real controversy is to acknowledge that MtF are women and should be viewed as women and nothing less. Yes, there is an option of Third Gender in Nepal, but not every transgendered person wants to be identified as a Third Gender, they would much rather be seen as a male or female just like the rest of the males and females.

But hey, I am optimistic in the end, At least we are not debating whether bisexuality exists or not.

On March 11 2013 14:09 Ansinjunger wrote:
Stories of transgender regret (post-surgery in particular). It's not a religious perspective:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html

Do's and Don'ts regarding HRT

http://www.slideshare.net/Maxisurgeon/hormone-replacement-therapy-for-transgenders-dos-and-donts-6073898

Looking these up showed me it's a change to be taken very seriously by the person undergoing HRT or SRS. Many do it to fulfill fantasy or some such. One thing that struck me in one guy's story (he regrets his SRS), was that he regrets listening to all of the encouragement from doctors and what not. There's too much telling him he's brave and not enough asking him if it's really the right choice for him. One may imagine, I also heartily approved of that guy giving the graduation speech telling kids "you're not special."

Too much blind optimism and not enough realism will make for some horridly dashed expectations.

On March 11 2013 14:11 Ghostcom wrote:


I think it would be "she" is defending her existence or have I gotten something wrong here? I (hope) believe that everyone here will treat MtFs as women as far as within our powers, but just like MtFs do not have power over their experience of gender and homosexuals do not have power over their attraction to same-sex, there are something which heterosexuals also do not have power over. To call us bigots for that is not to fight for your existence, that is to call us bigots over something we do not have any power over. If I treat a MtF as a women in every other aspect (and I do not wish to have sex with plenty of women sharing specific traits) I am according to her still a bigot? I refuse to acknowledge that I am treating MtFs with hatred and intolerance then.

On March 11 2013 14:11 Ghostcom wrote:


I think it would be "she" is defending her existence or have I gotten something wrong here? I (hope) believe that everyone here will treat MtFs as women as far as within our powers, but just like MtFs do not have power over their experience of gender and homosexuals do not have power over their attraction to same-sex, there are something which heterosexuals also do not have power over. To call us bigots for that is not to fight for your existence, that is to call us bigots over something we do not have any power over. If I treat a MtF as a women in every other aspect (and I do not wish to have sex with plenty of women sharing specific traits) I am according to her still a bigot? I refuse to acknowledge that I am treating MtFs with hatred and intolerance then.

On March 11 2013 13:42 dcemuser wrote:
Extremely fucking disappointed in the TL community's responses in this thread.

I think maybe a total of 4 people in the last three pages have thought through the implications of their posts before hitting submit.

If you had to ask on Page 1 why the T should not part of LGBT, hopefully you don't have to ask now - the incredible lack of empathy in this thread is astounding. In just the last few pages, they've been compared to criminals, murderers, and drug dealers. I think somewhere along the way you forgot they were people.

Nobody else is even trying to see outside their perspective in this thread, they're just vehemently defending their gut reaction - "oh god, trans people, ew".

On March 11 2013 03:10 Shiragaku wrote:
Brian meets a very beautiful and great woman, the two have sex, then Brian finds out that the person was formerly a man and throws up for like 10-20 seconds. And Seth MacFarlane said he would do the same thing if he got in a similar situation.

That is pretty bigoted if you ask me.

On March 11 2013 13:31 shinosai wrote:
I apologize to any LBGT people here, but I am tired, and I feel I am trying to argue with too many people. I'm trans, and I'm a woman, and yes, if you tell me I'm not, I think you're transphobic. And no, it's not the same thing as claiming I'm tall when I'm short, but I don't even know how to explain the difference at the moment. Or maybe, I don't want to. Because I don't feel like I should have to defend my fucking existence.

On March 11 2013 14:05 farvacola wrote:

Prejudices and poorly conceived of notions are only defeated through challenge, and in many cases, a public forum is a place for that to happen. I cannot speak for other posters, but I in no way meant to indict the manner in which Shinosai considers herself a woman; this is unfortunately where the crux of the problem lies. Humans can only disguise sexual preference in so many ways; at the end of the day, someone or something either gets a man's dick hard or it doesn't, and to be called a bigot for making it known that knowledge of another's differential sexual identity is to mistake shallowness for hatred and intolerance. We can play pretend and assert that everyone ought to have utterly open minds when it comes to interacting with one another, but to do so is to ignore the idiosyncrasy of human identity and how we make our understanding of our own identity known through expression or presence. Some people are able to easily ignore the history of their partner; for others, knowledge of a person's past plays an integral role in "getting to know" a person, perhaps even on a subconscious level.

Look at it this way. A fair number of men suffer from impotence, in many cases from explicitly psychic issues. This could not happen if men were in enough control of their physical sexual facilities to control what makes their penis hard. The point is that to automatically equate lack of sexual attraction with bigotry is to assume far too much in regards to what we know about how people control their personal appetites.

On March 11 2013 14:23 Shiragaku wrote:

Pardon me for that pronoun mistake. I often make that mistake with basic words such as "it," "is," and "the," hence why I often edit my posts.

From my understanding, this debate is not about how you should control your erection but if find a woman who you would want to have sex with then back off because she was once a man, then that is a problem.

The subject of trans women as romantic partners (or not) comes up often on this reddit, and every time, it quickly descends into a "heated conversation" with frustration and (usually unintentionally) hurt feelings. It's our own private Godwin's Law. I totally realize that by posting this I may very well be precipitating yet another such discussion and for that I apologize, but I can't help but feel that this is a conversation about real things and not just opinions. I'd like to try to elevate those conversations by establishing a baseline of facts.
Let's start with some basics:

Things which are not transphobic:

Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who happens to be trans.
Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who does not currently have the genitalia you prefer.
Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who just doesn't catch your eye.

Things which are transphobic:

Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman because she is trans.

Trans women are women. They are often indistinguishable from cis women. They can't get pregnant, but neither can almost 10% of cis women, and fortunately in a lesbian couple there's usually a womb to spare. (With enough forethought you might not need a sperm donor!) Saying you're "not attracted to trans women" as a blanket statement cannot have a basis in empirical reality, but purely in prejudice. It's not like not being attracted to redheads or blondes or butches, it's like not being attracted to immigrants, children of blue-collar workers or survivors of cancer. "Trans" is, for the numerical majority of trans women, a history which says nothing about the person.
Other common fallacies:

I've never been attracted to a trans woman, therefore trans women aren't attractive to me.

Besides the obvious selection bias, the idea that "Trans women look like X" is where this statement goes horribly awry. Trans women look like this, and this and thousands of other beautiful women who just don't advertise their history.

If you are attracted to women, you are attracted to (some) trans women.

Ewwww, penis!

You aren't into penii. I get it, and for what it's worth neither am I. To be fair, many trans women who carry that particular anatomical burden are not big fans of it either, so you have that in common at least. But many trans women don't, and many of those who do won't for long. Be careful about using this biased sample to rule out all trans women.

Also, would you rule someone out because she had six toes? Whenever I hear a straight man ask how sex works in the absence of a penis, I feel sorry for his girlfriends/wife, because he clearly doesn't understand how sexytimes work; when I hear a lesbian rule out trans women because of the presence of a hidden penis I feel sorry for her partner, because how superficial is that?

It's valid to be not into penii. this is, possibly, the only context in which anyone is allowed to care about a trans woman's genitalia. But say as much and don't assert that all trans women == penis. Those who aren't packing a strapless get a little annoyed by the assertion.

Transphobia == evil/mean/bad/poopy.

Transphobia is, in the strictest sense, an "irrational fear or dislike of transgender people". "Fear" and "dislike" are subjective terms and not something you have active control over. There's no ill-intent implied here. It is not an insult to be called transphobic, any more than it is an insult to be called trans.

I'm a bit androphobic. I accept and own that, and am trying to get over it by making male friends, challenging my own emotional responses and working through trauma. It's not something I can control, but it doesn't give me the right to say "all men are evil/rapists".

In the context of attraction: if you realize you dislike or are not attracted to trans women as a rule, trumping the holistic person, it should inspire you to do a little soul searching to understand why this is so. If you can't get over it, you should recognize that it is your problem and not anyone else's. If you are fortunate enough to have a trans person in your social circle, perhaps you could even try to overcome it.

Trans women are all X.

Trans women are all trans. Lesbians are all women who are attracted to women. This is a tautological definition, but there is no other universal quality. The moment you say (or imply) any other commonality, you're doing it wrong.
Finally, please remember:

The trans women who come in here and start these conversations are often on the most angsty leg of a very tumultuous journey. Try not to add to their fears with pedantic or broad statements about their future courtships. If you're 100% sure that you would never date a trans/black/Jewish/butch/immigrant woman, this may be a time to keep that to yourself.

When you speak up to specifically exclude trans women from your romantic prospects in a context defined by courtship (ie: LGBT spaces), you are implicitly othering them in that community. It's hard to explain why that is so, but it's impossible to ignore.