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On March 11 2013 11:56 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:30 shinosai wrote:
In response to the question: Is it bigoted to not want to have sex with a transsexual person?
It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual. The reason it is both bigoted and transphobic is because it denies that transsexual women are actually women. Basically, when you say that you are a heterosexual male (ie. you are a guy that likes having sex with women), but you don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
However, there is no property, attribute, or quality that could deny that a transsexual woman is a woman that does not invalidate cis women as well. XX chromosomes? Some cis women are born with irregular chromosomes. Ovaries? Hysterectomy. Vagina? Both trans and cis women have these. Being transsexual is not a physical property that some women have and some don't.
But what people actually mean when they say they don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, I think, tends to be that they "used" to be a guy and this makes them uncomfortable. They mean that they don't view transsexual women as "real" women. But this is not much different than saying, "I don't want to date person xyz because they had z condition in the past" (where z could be anything from cancer, a job at walmart, or they used to be in a gay relationship).
It's okay if you don't want to have sex with transsexual women. They probably don't want to have sex with you, either. But I'm just pointing out that it is bigoted and transphobic to say this outloud, in the same way that it would be to say that you wouldn't have sex with a woman that used to work at walmart, with a woman that was in a gay relationship once a time, or with a woman that is black (but perhaps you didn't know she had african american ancestry until after you had sex).
No woman is obligated to share her medical or professional history with you prior to sex. Although I would recommend it, not for the sake of men who are offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual, but for their own safety, as violence against trans women is a serious problem. Let me get this straight: You are saying that people are bigots (as in they treat a group with hatred and intolerance) if they do not want to have sex with that group? What about all those who do not want to have sex with obese people - does that make them bigots? You might be able to make an argument for superficial, but bigots?! Wauw.
Well, yes, I am, but let me ask you something: Do you think it is not racist to say: "I don't want to date black women because they are black." ? Now, take a step back for a moment, and let's suppose you slept with some black lady that you did not know was black. Are you now allowed to claim that she "deceived" you because she did not tell you she was black? Would it be okay if a television show depicted a man vomiting after discovering the person he kissed was black?
I feel like these situations are very similar.
If you aren't attracted to obese women, this is different. It's different because you can actually recognize obese women. It's a real physical property that you can point out and say, "Hey. Not attracted to that." But what's going on here is more like, you find out a woman USED to be obese, and use that as a basis for not wanting to sleep with her. The fact that she USED to be obese is not an actual physical property that you can legitimately say you're not attracted to.
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Haha, some of us are still stuck on the "trapped" mentality.
Most men who identify as heterosexual would not have sex with another man simply because they have no sexual attraction to the genitalia or the male physique whatsoever. Nothing wrong with that.
However, some of you would have sex with a woman willingly, whether it is a relationship or casual sex but immediately regret it or even believe that you were raped once you have the knowledge that the person was once a man. This reminds me of the Israeli/Palestinian one night stand stories where someone files charges against the other person because the person is not of their ideal ethnicity.
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On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman")
What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot?
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On March 11 2013 11:53 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:40 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Call me a bigot then, I don't want to fuck someone that had a penis. That's your right and as long as you don't act like a dick about it or beat the poor girl then you aren't a bigot.
I can concur with this.
If a guy doesn't want to have a relationship with me because of something like that, it's his loss not mine, and I don't really care. As long as he doesn't try to deny my identity or openly harass me, that's all well and good. I'm not attracted to every sort of guy, and I don't expect every guy to be attracted to every kind of girl.
On March 11 2013 12:02 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman") What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot?
It's still flesh, and in many cases almost impossible to differentiate (sans the exclusion of the cervix. But I don't think many people check their partners cervix out very often o_O.) Could even be further brought out to discuss that the genitals are ambiguous during a long period of development, and essentially come from the same deal...
That being said, strokes for folks. It's easy to say "I wouldn't every have sex with X" without actually putting a face, personality, and knowledge of X there. You may be surprised you feel differently if you ever met a person that you were fond of and X ends up not really being a big deal.
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On March 11 2013 12:02 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman") What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot?
I implore you to ask every woman you go out with if their vaginas were crafted by surgeons. In general you wouldn't be able to tell hun; sorry to burst your bubble.
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On March 11 2013 12:04 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:02 cz wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman") What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot? I implore you to ask every woman you go out with if their vaginas were crafted by surgeons. In general you wouldn't be able to tell hun; sorry to burst your bubble.
It's not about being able to test, it's about what I want.
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On March 11 2013 11:59 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:30 shinosai wrote:
In response to the question: Is it bigoted to not want to have sex with a transsexual person?
It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual. The reason it is both bigoted and transphobic is because it denies that transsexual women are actually women. Basically, when you say that you are a heterosexual male (ie. you are a guy that likes having sex with women), but you don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
However, there is no property, attribute, or quality that could deny that a transsexual woman is a woman that does not invalidate cis women as well. XX chromosomes? Some cis women are born with irregular chromosomes. Ovaries? Hysterectomy. Vagina? Both trans and cis women have these. Being transsexual is not a physical property that some women have and some don't.
But what people actually mean when they say they don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, I think, tends to be that they "used" to be a guy and this makes them uncomfortable. They mean that they don't view transsexual women as "real" women. But this is not much different than saying, "I don't want to date person xyz because they had z condition in the past" (where z could be anything from cancer, a job at walmart, or they used to be in a gay relationship).
It's okay if you don't want to have sex with transsexual women. They probably don't want to have sex with you, either. But I'm just pointing out that it is bigoted and transphobic to say this outloud, in the same way that it would be to say that you wouldn't have sex with a woman that used to work at walmart, with a woman that was in a gay relationship once a time, or with a woman that is black (but perhaps you didn't know she had african american ancestry until after you had sex).
No woman is obligated to share her medical or professional history with you prior to sex. Although I would recommend it, not for the sake of men who are offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual, but for their own safety, as violence against trans women is a serious problem. Let me get this straight: You are saying that people are bigots (as in they treat a group with hatred and intolerance) if they do not want to have sex with that group? What about all those who do not want to have sex with obese people - does that make them bigots? You might be able to make an argument for superficial, but bigots?! Wauw. Well, yes, I am, but let me ask you something: Do you think it is not racist to say: "I don't want to date black women because they are black." ? Now, take a step back for a moment, and let's suppose you slept with some black lady that you did not know was black. Are you now allowed to claim that she "deceived" you because she did not tell you she was black? Would it be okay if a television show depicted a man vomiting after discovering the person he kissed was black? I feel like these situations are very similar.
If that person was not attracted to black people is it racism then?
How is it okay to say "I am not attracted to males/females (or both for some)" but not okay to say "I am not attracted to XXX"? Are all gays in fact sexist?
EDIT: I would like to thank Attay for bringing some sense into this. Of course EVERYONE no matter sexual orientation, gender, race or other traits/characteristics should be treated with respect.
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On March 11 2013 12:02 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman") What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot?
Yes, because you're marginalizing trans women's vaginas and acting like transsexual women's vaginas are not "real" vaginas. They look like cis women's vaginas. They act like cis women's vaginas. What exactly about trans women's vaginas are not like "biologically created vaginas"?
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On March 11 2013 12:05 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:04 fugs wrote:On March 11 2013 12:02 cz wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman") What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot? I implore you to ask every woman you go out with if their vaginas were crafted by surgeons. In general you wouldn't be able to tell hun; sorry to burst your bubble. It's not about being able to test, it's about what I want.
You can want whatever you like. If it's done correctly then you won't be able to tell and if it's a one night stand she might not even tell you. Are you any worse off for not knowing? That's up to you to decide.
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On March 11 2013 12:05 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:02 cz wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman") What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot? Yes, because you're marginalizing trans women's vaginas and acting like transsexual women's vaginas are not "real" vaginas. They look like cis women's vaginas. They act like cis women's vaginas. What exactly about trans women's vaginas are not like "biologically created vaginas"?
>They look like cis women's vaginas. They act like cis women's vaginas. What exactly about trans women's vaginas are not like "biologically created vaginas"?
They don't attach to a working uterus, for one. If I only want to sleep with women who I want to have a relationship with - and hopefully biological kids in the future - am I bigot?
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On March 11 2013 12:05 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:59 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:30 shinosai wrote:
In response to the question: Is it bigoted to not want to have sex with a transsexual person?
It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual. The reason it is both bigoted and transphobic is because it denies that transsexual women are actually women. Basically, when you say that you are a heterosexual male (ie. you are a guy that likes having sex with women), but you don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
However, there is no property, attribute, or quality that could deny that a transsexual woman is a woman that does not invalidate cis women as well. XX chromosomes? Some cis women are born with irregular chromosomes. Ovaries? Hysterectomy. Vagina? Both trans and cis women have these. Being transsexual is not a physical property that some women have and some don't.
But what people actually mean when they say they don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, I think, tends to be that they "used" to be a guy and this makes them uncomfortable. They mean that they don't view transsexual women as "real" women. But this is not much different than saying, "I don't want to date person xyz because they had z condition in the past" (where z could be anything from cancer, a job at walmart, or they used to be in a gay relationship).
It's okay if you don't want to have sex with transsexual women. They probably don't want to have sex with you, either. But I'm just pointing out that it is bigoted and transphobic to say this outloud, in the same way that it would be to say that you wouldn't have sex with a woman that used to work at walmart, with a woman that was in a gay relationship once a time, or with a woman that is black (but perhaps you didn't know she had african american ancestry until after you had sex).
No woman is obligated to share her medical or professional history with you prior to sex. Although I would recommend it, not for the sake of men who are offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual, but for their own safety, as violence against trans women is a serious problem. Let me get this straight: You are saying that people are bigots (as in they treat a group with hatred and intolerance) if they do not want to have sex with that group? What about all those who do not want to have sex with obese people - does that make them bigots? You might be able to make an argument for superficial, but bigots?! Wauw. Well, yes, I am, but let me ask you something: Do you think it is not racist to say: "I don't want to date black women because they are black." ? Now, take a step back for a moment, and let's suppose you slept with some black lady that you did not know was black. Are you now allowed to claim that she "deceived" you because she did not tell you she was black? Would it be okay if a television show depicted a man vomiting after discovering the person he kissed was black? I feel like these situations are very similar. If that person was not attracted to black people is it racism then? How is it okay to say "I am not attracted to males/females (or both for some)" but not okay to say "I am not attracted to XXX"? Are all gays in fact sexist?
It is racism because the person obviously is attracted to a black person. If they weren't, they wouldn't have had sex with them. The fact that they only object to the sex after they find out that the person has a black ancestry is kind of the point. It's not okay. It reveals the racism.
It's not that the person isn't attracted to black people - rather that the person won't date a person because she is black. There is a fucking difference.
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On March 11 2013 12:08 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:05 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 12:02 cz wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman") What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot? Yes, because you're marginalizing trans women's vaginas and acting like transsexual women's vaginas are not "real" vaginas. They look like cis women's vaginas. They act like cis women's vaginas. What exactly about trans women's vaginas are not like "biologically created vaginas"? >They look like cis women's vaginas. They act like cis women's vaginas. What exactly about trans women's vaginas are not like "biologically created vaginas"? They don't attach to a working uterus, for one. If I only want to sleep with women who I want to have a relationship with - and hopefully biological kids in the future - am I bigot?
Some women have hysterectomies. So, instead of saying, "I don't want to date transsexuals" you should say "I don't want to date women that can't have children." If you say the latter rather than the former, then no, I don't think you are a bigot.
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On March 11 2013 12:08 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:05 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:59 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:30 shinosai wrote:
In response to the question: Is it bigoted to not want to have sex with a transsexual person?
It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual. The reason it is both bigoted and transphobic is because it denies that transsexual women are actually women. Basically, when you say that you are a heterosexual male (ie. you are a guy that likes having sex with women), but you don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
However, there is no property, attribute, or quality that could deny that a transsexual woman is a woman that does not invalidate cis women as well. XX chromosomes? Some cis women are born with irregular chromosomes. Ovaries? Hysterectomy. Vagina? Both trans and cis women have these. Being transsexual is not a physical property that some women have and some don't.
But what people actually mean when they say they don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, I think, tends to be that they "used" to be a guy and this makes them uncomfortable. They mean that they don't view transsexual women as "real" women. But this is not much different than saying, "I don't want to date person xyz because they had z condition in the past" (where z could be anything from cancer, a job at walmart, or they used to be in a gay relationship).
It's okay if you don't want to have sex with transsexual women. They probably don't want to have sex with you, either. But I'm just pointing out that it is bigoted and transphobic to say this outloud, in the same way that it would be to say that you wouldn't have sex with a woman that used to work at walmart, with a woman that was in a gay relationship once a time, or with a woman that is black (but perhaps you didn't know she had african american ancestry until after you had sex).
No woman is obligated to share her medical or professional history with you prior to sex. Although I would recommend it, not for the sake of men who are offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual, but for their own safety, as violence against trans women is a serious problem. Let me get this straight: You are saying that people are bigots (as in they treat a group with hatred and intolerance) if they do not want to have sex with that group? What about all those who do not want to have sex with obese people - does that make them bigots? You might be able to make an argument for superficial, but bigots?! Wauw. Well, yes, I am, but let me ask you something: Do you think it is not racist to say: "I don't want to date black women because they are black." ? Now, take a step back for a moment, and let's suppose you slept with some black lady that you did not know was black. Are you now allowed to claim that she "deceived" you because she did not tell you she was black? Would it be okay if a television show depicted a man vomiting after discovering the person he kissed was black? I feel like these situations are very similar. If that person was not attracted to black people is it racism then? How is it okay to say "I am not attracted to males/females (or both for some)" but not okay to say "I am not attracted to XXX"? Are all gays in fact sexist? It is racism because the person obviously is attracted to a black person. If they weren't, they wouldn't have had sex with them. The fact that they only object to the sex after they find out that the person has a black ancestry is kind of the point. It's not okay. It reveals the racism. It's not that the person isn't attracted to black people - rather that the person won't date a person because she is black. There is a fucking difference.
If a black woman won't date white men because they're white, is she racist?
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On March 11 2013 12:08 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:05 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:59 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:30 shinosai wrote:
In response to the question: Is it bigoted to not want to have sex with a transsexual person?
It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual. The reason it is both bigoted and transphobic is because it denies that transsexual women are actually women. Basically, when you say that you are a heterosexual male (ie. you are a guy that likes having sex with women), but you don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
However, there is no property, attribute, or quality that could deny that a transsexual woman is a woman that does not invalidate cis women as well. XX chromosomes? Some cis women are born with irregular chromosomes. Ovaries? Hysterectomy. Vagina? Both trans and cis women have these. Being transsexual is not a physical property that some women have and some don't.
But what people actually mean when they say they don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, I think, tends to be that they "used" to be a guy and this makes them uncomfortable. They mean that they don't view transsexual women as "real" women. But this is not much different than saying, "I don't want to date person xyz because they had z condition in the past" (where z could be anything from cancer, a job at walmart, or they used to be in a gay relationship).
It's okay if you don't want to have sex with transsexual women. They probably don't want to have sex with you, either. But I'm just pointing out that it is bigoted and transphobic to say this outloud, in the same way that it would be to say that you wouldn't have sex with a woman that used to work at walmart, with a woman that was in a gay relationship once a time, or with a woman that is black (but perhaps you didn't know she had african american ancestry until after you had sex).
No woman is obligated to share her medical or professional history with you prior to sex. Although I would recommend it, not for the sake of men who are offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual, but for their own safety, as violence against trans women is a serious problem. Let me get this straight: You are saying that people are bigots (as in they treat a group with hatred and intolerance) if they do not want to have sex with that group? What about all those who do not want to have sex with obese people - does that make them bigots? You might be able to make an argument for superficial, but bigots?! Wauw. Well, yes, I am, but let me ask you something: Do you think it is not racist to say: "I don't want to date black women because they are black." ? Now, take a step back for a moment, and let's suppose you slept with some black lady that you did not know was black. Are you now allowed to claim that she "deceived" you because she did not tell you she was black? Would it be okay if a television show depicted a man vomiting after discovering the person he kissed was black? I feel like these situations are very similar. If that person was not attracted to black people is it racism then? How is it okay to say "I am not attracted to males/females (or both for some)" but not okay to say "I am not attracted to XXX"? Are all gays in fact sexist? It is racism because the person obviously is attracted to a black person. If they weren't, they wouldn't have had sex with them.
You play the entrapment argument and now you back out of it saying that the person knew about it up front? Which is it you want to argue? And you have yet to answer me if homosexuals are sexist bigots when they dislike one gender.
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On March 11 2013 12:08 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:05 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 12:02 cz wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:43 cz wrote:
>you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
Don't they? Otherwise there would be no such thing as transgendered and everyone would be cis. No, they don't. They have a medical history, but history is not the same thing as a physical property. The fact that I "used" to have red hair does not mean that you can now say that I'm not really blonde now. There is no property exclusive to cis women that no trans woman possesses, with the exception of "invisible" properties that exist only to exclude and marginalize trans women (like "born a woman") What about "having a biologically created vagina". I'm under the impression than transwomen do not have these. What if I only want to date women with born-with vaginas? Does that make me a bigot? Yes, because you're marginalizing trans women's vaginas and acting like transsexual women's vaginas are not "real" vaginas. They look like cis women's vaginas. They act like cis women's vaginas. What exactly about trans women's vaginas are not like "biologically created vaginas"? >They look like cis women's vaginas. They act like cis women's vaginas. What exactly about trans women's vaginas are not like "biologically created vaginas"? They don't attach to a working uterus, for one. If I only want to sleep with women who I want to have a relationship with - and hopefully biological kids in the future - am I bigot?
Not at all, there are natural-born women that can't have children and it's fine not to date them because of it too. Though both natural-born women and trans women might be a bit sensitive about the issue for obvious reasons.
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On March 11 2013 12:01 Shiragaku wrote:
Haha, some of us are still stuck on the "trapped" mentality.
Most men who identify as heterosexual would not have sex with another man simply because they have no sexual attraction to the genitalia or the male physique whatsoever.
However, some of you would have sex with a woman willingly, whether it is a relationship or casual sex but immediately regret it or even believe that you were raped once you have the knowledge that the person was once a man. This reminds me of the Israeli/Palestinian one night stand stories where someone files charges against the other person because the person is not of their ideal ethnicity.
If you think an average sober man cannot tell the difference between an organically formed vagina and a surgically created one, you might want to look at some surgeries, and not the one in a thousand miracle hundreds of thousands of dollars surgeries. Sure, the technique is pretty advanced and will continue to improve, but the differences are still there. My point is that, essentially, your argument basically boils down to a mandate that we say "we don't want to have sex with a woman with an altered vagina". Ok I guess.
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On March 11 2013 12:11 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:08 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 12:05 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:59 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:30 shinosai wrote:
In response to the question: Is it bigoted to not want to have sex with a transsexual person?
It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual. The reason it is both bigoted and transphobic is because it denies that transsexual women are actually women. Basically, when you say that you are a heterosexual male (ie. you are a guy that likes having sex with women), but you don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
However, there is no property, attribute, or quality that could deny that a transsexual woman is a woman that does not invalidate cis women as well. XX chromosomes? Some cis women are born with irregular chromosomes. Ovaries? Hysterectomy. Vagina? Both trans and cis women have these. Being transsexual is not a physical property that some women have and some don't.
But what people actually mean when they say they don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, I think, tends to be that they "used" to be a guy and this makes them uncomfortable. They mean that they don't view transsexual women as "real" women. But this is not much different than saying, "I don't want to date person xyz because they had z condition in the past" (where z could be anything from cancer, a job at walmart, or they used to be in a gay relationship).
It's okay if you don't want to have sex with transsexual women. They probably don't want to have sex with you, either. But I'm just pointing out that it is bigoted and transphobic to say this outloud, in the same way that it would be to say that you wouldn't have sex with a woman that used to work at walmart, with a woman that was in a gay relationship once a time, or with a woman that is black (but perhaps you didn't know she had african american ancestry until after you had sex).
No woman is obligated to share her medical or professional history with you prior to sex. Although I would recommend it, not for the sake of men who are offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual, but for their own safety, as violence against trans women is a serious problem. Let me get this straight: You are saying that people are bigots (as in they treat a group with hatred and intolerance) if they do not want to have sex with that group? What about all those who do not want to have sex with obese people - does that make them bigots? You might be able to make an argument for superficial, but bigots?! Wauw. Well, yes, I am, but let me ask you something: Do you think it is not racist to say: "I don't want to date black women because they are black." ? Now, take a step back for a moment, and let's suppose you slept with some black lady that you did not know was black. Are you now allowed to claim that she "deceived" you because she did not tell you she was black? Would it be okay if a television show depicted a man vomiting after discovering the person he kissed was black? I feel like these situations are very similar. If that person was not attracted to black people is it racism then? How is it okay to say "I am not attracted to males/females (or both for some)" but not okay to say "I am not attracted to XXX"? Are all gays in fact sexist? It is racism because the person obviously is attracted to a black person. If they weren't, they wouldn't have had sex with them. The fact that they only object to the sex after they find out that the person has a black ancestry is kind of the point. It's not okay. It reveals the racism. It's not that the person isn't attracted to black people - rather that the person won't date a person because she is black. There is a fucking difference. If a black woman won't date white men because they're white, is she racist?
Of course, what is there to argue?
On March 11 2013 12:12 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:01 Shiragaku wrote:
Haha, some of us are still stuck on the "trapped" mentality.
Most men who identify as heterosexual would not have sex with another man simply because they have no sexual attraction to the genitalia or the male physique whatsoever.
However, some of you would have sex with a woman willingly, whether it is a relationship or casual sex but immediately regret it or even believe that you were raped once you have the knowledge that the person was once a man. This reminds me of the Israeli/Palestinian one night stand stories where someone files charges against the other person because the person is not of their ideal ethnicity. If you think an average sober man cannot tell the difference between an organically formed vagina and a surgically created one, you might want to look at some surgeries, and not the one in a thousand miracle hundreds of thousands of dollars surgeries. Sure, the technique is pretty advanced and will continue to improve, but the differences are still there. My point is that, essentially, your argument basically boils down to a mandate that we say "we don't want to have sex with a woman with an altered vagina". Ok I guess.
I am well aware of that. Out of every thousand sex change, we seem to only get one Kayo Satoh or Haruna Ai.
But since we are talking about sex and when looking for sex, we look for people who are naturally appealing to our tastes, I thought it would not hurt to be theoretical.
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On March 11 2013 12:11 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:08 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 12:05 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:59 shinosai wrote:On March 11 2013 11:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 11 2013 11:30 shinosai wrote:
In response to the question: Is it bigoted to not want to have sex with a transsexual person?
It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual. The reason it is both bigoted and transphobic is because it denies that transsexual women are actually women. Basically, when you say that you are a heterosexual male (ie. you are a guy that likes having sex with women), but you don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
However, there is no property, attribute, or quality that could deny that a transsexual woman is a woman that does not invalidate cis women as well. XX chromosomes? Some cis women are born with irregular chromosomes. Ovaries? Hysterectomy. Vagina? Both trans and cis women have these. Being transsexual is not a physical property that some women have and some don't.
But what people actually mean when they say they don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, I think, tends to be that they "used" to be a guy and this makes them uncomfortable. They mean that they don't view transsexual women as "real" women. But this is not much different than saying, "I don't want to date person xyz because they had z condition in the past" (where z could be anything from cancer, a job at walmart, or they used to be in a gay relationship).
It's okay if you don't want to have sex with transsexual women. They probably don't want to have sex with you, either. But I'm just pointing out that it is bigoted and transphobic to say this outloud, in the same way that it would be to say that you wouldn't have sex with a woman that used to work at walmart, with a woman that was in a gay relationship once a time, or with a woman that is black (but perhaps you didn't know she had african american ancestry until after you had sex).
No woman is obligated to share her medical or professional history with you prior to sex. Although I would recommend it, not for the sake of men who are offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual, but for their own safety, as violence against trans women is a serious problem. Let me get this straight: You are saying that people are bigots (as in they treat a group with hatred and intolerance) if they do not want to have sex with that group? What about all those who do not want to have sex with obese people - does that make them bigots? You might be able to make an argument for superficial, but bigots?! Wauw. Well, yes, I am, but let me ask you something: Do you think it is not racist to say: "I don't want to date black women because they are black." ? Now, take a step back for a moment, and let's suppose you slept with some black lady that you did not know was black. Are you now allowed to claim that she "deceived" you because she did not tell you she was black? Would it be okay if a television show depicted a man vomiting after discovering the person he kissed was black? I feel like these situations are very similar. If that person was not attracted to black people is it racism then? How is it okay to say "I am not attracted to males/females (or both for some)" but not okay to say "I am not attracted to XXX"? Are all gays in fact sexist? It is racism because the person obviously is attracted to a black person. If they weren't, they wouldn't have had sex with them. You play the entrapment argument and now you back out of it saying that the person knew about it up front? Which is it you want to argue? And you have yet to answer me if homosexuals are sexist bigots when they dislike one gender.
I'm not backing out. I'm saying that the person is obviously attracted to black women since they slept with one (even though they didn't know it). You can't claim that you aren't attracted to someone after the fact. That's ridiculous. And I did answer your question, read previous post.
Actually, I'll try to answer anyways. No, homosexuals are not sexist bigots when they dislike one gender, anymore than I am a sexist bigot for disliking people that are obese. But this is different from something like USED to be obese or USED to be a guy. These are not the same thing, please stop conflating them as if they are equivalent.
You are making an analogy between real physical properties (being a man or a woman, or say, obese) and invisible, nonexistent properties (used to be male, used to be obese)
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On March 11 2013 11:56 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 11:30 shinosai wrote:
In response to the question: Is it bigoted to not want to have sex with a transsexual person?
It's not bigoted to not want to have sex with a particular transsexual person. It is bigoted to not want to engage in sexual relations because a person is transsexual. The reason it is both bigoted and transphobic is because it denies that transsexual women are actually women. Basically, when you say that you are a heterosexual male (ie. you are a guy that likes having sex with women), but you don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, you're saying: I think transsexual women have some property or quality that differentiates them from cis women.
However, there is no property, attribute, or quality that could deny that a transsexual woman is a woman that does not invalidate cis women as well. XX chromosomes? Some cis women are born with irregular chromosomes. Ovaries? Hysterectomy. Vagina? Both trans and cis women have these. Being transsexual is not a physical property that some women have and some don't.
But what people actually mean when they say they don't want to have sex with a transsexual woman, I think, tends to be that they "used" to be a guy and this makes them uncomfortable. They mean that they don't view transsexual women as "real" women. But this is not much different than saying, "I don't want to date person xyz because they had z condition in the past" (where z could be anything from cancer, a job at walmart, or they used to be in a gay relationship).
It's okay if you don't want to have sex with transsexual women. They probably don't want to have sex with you, either. But I'm just pointing out that it is bigoted and transphobic to say this outloud, in the same way that it would be to say that you wouldn't have sex with a woman that used to work at walmart, with a woman that was in a gay relationship once a time, or with a woman that is black (but perhaps you didn't know she had african american ancestry until after you had sex).
No woman is obligated to share her medical or professional history with you prior to sex. Although I would recommend it, not for the sake of men who are offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual, but for their own safety, as violence against trans women is a serious problem. Let me get this straight: You are saying that people are bigots (as in they treat a group with hatred and intolerance) if they do not want to have sex with that group? What about all those who do not want to have sex with obese people - does that make them bigots? You might be able to make an argument for superficial, but bigots?! Wauw.
No it's not the same thing at all.
First of all, obviously, you can't force yourself or someone to be attracted sexually to someone. It just kind of happen. This is fine and not bigotery.
But let's say someone meets a girl and he's attracted to her, find her pretty and all that stuff. After a few date, the girl tells him that she's transgender. If after knowing this the person is digusted and believe he was "tricked", then yes this is transphobia.
Of course, they are other stuff to consider, like not being able to have biological children, or issue about genital preference, etc. This is fine and understandable.
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On March 11 2013 12:12 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:01 Shiragaku wrote:
Haha, some of us are still stuck on the "trapped" mentality.
Most men who identify as heterosexual would not have sex with another man simply because they have no sexual attraction to the genitalia or the male physique whatsoever.
However, some of you would have sex with a woman willingly, whether it is a relationship or casual sex but immediately regret it or even believe that you were raped once you have the knowledge that the person was once a man. This reminds me of the Israeli/Palestinian one night stand stories where someone files charges against the other person because the person is not of their ideal ethnicity. If you think an average sober man cannot tell the difference between an organically formed vagina and a surgically created one, you might want to look at some surgeries, and not the one in a thousand miracle hundreds of thousands of dollars surgeries. Sure, the technique is pretty advanced and will continue to improve, but the differences are still there. My point is that, essentially, your argument basically boils down to a mandate that we say "we don't want to have sex with a woman with an altered vagina". Ok I guess.
You're wrong though. The surgeries themselves cost around twenty thousand US dollars. You can look up before and after pictures if you'd like, I don't think I can post them here. After the scars are healed it's near-impossible to see the difference unless you are an OB/GYN and are probing the thing.
Edit - And that's because there's no uterus. Remember that we're all female when we start out in the womb. Male genitals grow from the vagina, clitoris is the head, ovaries turn into testicles; That sort of thing. So the surgeon is just putting things back the way they were, per-say.
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EPT
