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On August 01 2013 00:37 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 08:45 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 08:43 Shiori wrote:On July 31 2013 08:33 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 08:16 Shiori wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:
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Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. I wouldn't want to have sex with a transsexual because I prefer non-artificial genitalia in my partners. I don't care much for clit/labia piercings either, but full-on transsexualism isn't physically appealing to me for similar reasons; I just don't really find artificial/not fully functional genitalia to be attractive. For me, it's kinda a deal-breaker, but I can't really help what I like sexually, can I? That aside, I'm rather skeptical of whether gender has a coherent definition, because I've never been able to locate one that isn't ultimately circular. I mean, I know that transgender people are legitimate, and I'm not trying to undermine that, but I don't "identify" as being a male in some way that extends beyond my penis and basic anatomy, so I can't really imagine what people mean by gender as an abstract concept.
You can justify your preference any way you want. I'm just explaining to you that "surgery" isn't really a good way to differentiate bodies since everyone has probably had it and that being weirded out by this theoretical body is rather irrational.
You act like there aren't varying degrees of surgery. I don't want to marry someone who has slept with 100000 men; that doesn't mean I have a problem with them sleeping with people in general (i.e. if they slept with one person). The genitalia aren't plastic. Technically they're artificial but they're still functional flesh that appears no different than naturally developed genitalia. And don't use ludicrous examples. You don't want to have sex with a woman who's had 10,000 partners because of the behavior that implies, the risk it poses to you for STD's, and the fact that her vagina probably just doesn't feel good with that much constant use. There are consequences of her sleeping around that much and things you can actually identify you don't like. There aren't any consequences to sex inherent in being trans and other than the fact that they are trans...you can't identify anything you don't like. That's what I don't buy. For every preference people can list reasons. But in this thread the "non trans" preference is justified with "just because ok!!" and that's why I'm not taking it seriously as a preference. I don't buy it when Reason says it, and I don't buy it when you say it. Babylon's reason of "I don't think I could properly deal with any emotional baggage" is more believable. Although I'd venture that there are probably trans women out there who have made the transition with minimal stress and, if there aren't many now, hopefully there will be in the future, and I'd ask how that preference holds up then. Um, technically the feeling of a man giving me oral sex is equivalent to that of a woman giving me oral sex, but that doesn't mean I don't prefer one to the other... I'm not saying that trans women aren't women, btw; this is just an example and nothing more. All sexual preferences are pretty much arbitrary at the bottom of things. As long as it's between consenting adults, who gives a fuck who we want to fuck? It's not like we're obligated to fuck anyone. I mean, I couldn't tell you while I like women with long (head) hair; I just do. Doesn't mean I hate women with short hair. If the feeling of a man giving you oral sex is the same as a woman giving you oral sex...I recommend you find different women or rethink how you label your orientation. They ain't the same yo. Mouths are mouths bro. Hell, sodomizing a male is physiologically almost the same as sodomizing a female.. I'm not implying that I've experienced both; I'm just implying that the mouths of male and female humans are pretty damn similar.
Lol, he's saying that guys give better blowjobs.
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On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else.
"I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else."
Sorry, just too easy. 
But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people.
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On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people.
Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person.
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On March 11 2013 01:01 dcemuser wrote:
If I had a dollar for every usage of the word that actually meant "LGB" but said "LGBT", I'd be a flipping millionaire, and I can say with certainty that I'm not exaggerating.
Obviously an insanely old post, but I just had to comment on this, because I think this is a common misconception...
You're obviously exaggerating. Since you're certain that you're not, I'm going to assume you don't realize how much a million is, so here's an example:
If you hear someone say LGBT when they meant LGB once every minute, 24 hours a day... it would still take almost 2 years until you've heard it a million times.
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On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person.
I agree it was a bad analogy, but trans women are still real women. Not arguing against anyone's right to only want to sleep with cis women though.
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On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person.
I don't know if the attraction that you're thinking of goes down that deep. A lot of people are attracted to other things that are not evolutionarily advantageous (see homosexuals, etc.). Since you likely don't know someone is a trans woman then your attraction to them would be based solely on what you see. I can understand a viewpoint of someone saying "I want to my wife to bear my children and thus I wouldn't want a long term relationship with a trans woman" but to argue that they are inherently not attractive seems strange.
As for whether the analogy is a good one or not, I guess I can't really see myself dating a black woman. I'm not sure if that's a manifestation of a prejudice, or a benign preference, but I would say that on the whole I find black women less attractive than those of other races.
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On August 01 2013 01:47 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 01:01 dcemuser wrote:
If I had a dollar for every usage of the word that actually meant "LGB" but said "LGBT", I'd be a flipping millionaire, and I can say with certainty that I'm not exaggerating. Obviously an insanely old post, but I just had to comment on this, because I think this is a common misconception... You're obviously exaggerating. Since you're certain that you're not, I'm going to assume you don't realize how much a million is, so here's an example: If you hear someone say LGBT when they meant LGB once every minute, 24 hours a day... it would still take almost 2 years until you've heard it a million times.
He was clearly exaggerating, but I have to say that I agree with the sentiment of the post. There is a good sized movement within the transgendered community to separate themselves from the LGBT movement because a lot of their needs are quite different, and people think that if they do stuff like legalize gay marriage it will somehow solve the issues that they face.
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On August 01 2013 01:48 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person. I agree it was a bad analogy, but trans women are still real women. Not arguing against anyone's right to only want to sleep with cis women though.
It boils down to what someone is comfortable with. I don't think any transgender person would want to be in a relationship with someone who was uncomfortable with them being transgender. Stating that you would "never" be in a relationship with someone who is transgender is a bit insulting(after all, you don't say that about people of a specific race, even if it is true).
Normally I respond with "I don't know, it hasn't come up at this point and I would cross that bridge if I came to it. I am in a relationship right now and I don't really see it being an option in the near future."
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On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people.
I think this is just one of those moments of, "I don't like what you said, but I will fight to the death so that you can say it!" No doubt, there are some "less progressive" people than him or I that would gladly date outside of "cultural norms" (I guess I'll use that phrase, but it doesn't sound right), even if we ourselves would not. That could very well be racially related, or sexual identity related, but I don't think for a moment that a hesitation or reluctance to participate in a "new freedom" is any condemnation of it.
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On July 31 2013 16:04 maybenexttime wrote:
Well, of course they are. From evolutionary point of view, attraction is largely based on fertility (and genetic diversity), so a woman having had a sex-change is a pretty major turn off on a very fundamental, biological, level. What you said is akin to saying that you're not attracted to fat women is degrading to fat women. No, it's not, and if someone is offended by the fact that they might not be attractive to someone else, they should grow up.
This evolutionary argument is one of the most common, fallacious lines of reasoning I see on the internet (probably because even a middle school kid knows about evolution). As if humans can be and should be reduced to biological impulses. It's a reductionist form of thought and only takes into account, on the most fundamental level, genetic factors in determining human behavior when other societal and cultural factors play just as big a role in determining attraction. Heck, when I can turn that around and argue that, from an evolutionary point of view, women should be more attracted to fat men than skinny men, you can easily see the flaw in that, right?
I mean, I get what you're saying, and I don't actually care about one's sexual preferences (so long as you are not picking up little kids from a playground, a'ight). Sexual attraction is ultimately something that is very deeply seated in the mind. If you're not sexually attracted to a person, then you can't make yourself feel sexually attracted to them, and arguing over how one should be attracted to Person A rather than Person B, or should feel equal amounts of attraction is just a waste of energy. I am sure that at least some amount of transphobia is ingrained into everyone's brain, but that can't be helped, and the only way to get around it is to become more aware of one's self, assumptions, and actions.
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On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people.
A trans woman can not get pregnant, making it a false analogy. Additionally, and please do not take this the wrong way, but in every trans person I have met, its not a 100% conversion. There are always obvious amounts of male mixed into the female, sometimes even mostly male. I am not attracted to men, and having male attributes is very unattractive to me. A black woman looks entirely like a woman and not a man at all. And a black woman would be able to have my children. So given the fact that there are 2 different situations, how can you say its my responsibility to change what I want? I think until a man is able to 100% convert to female, its not reasonable to say people should see trans women as the same as people born as women. The differences can be quite large.
On August 01 2013 01:48 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person. I agree it was a bad analogy, but trans women are still real women. Not arguing against anyone's right to only want to sleep with cis women though.
I would define a "real" woman as you say, as someone who is 100% woman and does not have any obviously male characteristics. Every trans female I have met, you can look at them and be able to tell. You can see the male attributes. How is that the same? I can understand the cause and I fight for their equality in every regard, but you can't say a trans woman is physically equivalent to a person born a woman. Even disregarding procreation, there are very obvious physical appearance differences.
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On August 01 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:48 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person. I agree it was a bad analogy, but trans women are still real women. Not arguing against anyone's right to only want to sleep with cis women though. It boils down to what someone is comfortable with. I don't think any transgender person would want to be in a relationship with someone who was uncomfortable with them being transgender. Stating that you would "never" be in a relationship with someone who is transgender is a bit insulting(after all, you don't say that about people of a specific race, even if it is true). Normally I respond with "I don't know, it hasn't come up at this point and I would cross that bridge if I came to it. I am in a relationship right now and I don't really see it being an option in the near future."
Exactly, even though you may have a preference, say for white people, it's never really an exclusive thing.
The part about reproduction can be a good argument of course, but the thing is, cis women can be infertile too. Are they less attractive ? I don't think so.
Saying that we are all attracted to reproduction is an oversimplification and not everybody has the desire to have children. I don't think gay people go into a relationship expecting a biological children either.
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On August 01 2013 02:04 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. A trans woman can not get pregnant, making it a false analogy. Additionally, and please do not take this the wrong way, but in every trans person I have met, its not a 100% conversion. There are always obvious amounts of male mixed into the female, sometimes even mostly male. I am not attracted to men, and having male attributes is very unattractive to me. A black woman looks entirely like a woman and not a man at all. And a black woman would be able to have my children. So given the fact that there are 2 different situations, how can you say its my responsibility to change what I want? I think until a man is able to 100% convert to female, its not reasonable to say people should see trans women as the same as people born as women. The differences can be quite large.
I don't think anyone is arguing that you need to be attracted to someone, transgender or not. They are simply requesting you approach the situation with the same level of tact and respect as you would letting a cis woman know you were not attracted to her.
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On August 01 2013 02:04 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. A trans woman can not get pregnant, making it a false analogy. Additionally, and please do not take this the wrong way, but in every trans person I have met, its not a 100% conversion. There are always obvious amounts of male mixed into the female, sometimes even mostly male. I am not attracted to men, and having male attributes is very unattractive to me. A black woman looks entirely like a woman and not a man at all. And a black woman would be able to have my children. So given the fact that there are 2 different situations, how can you say its my responsibility to change what I want? I think until a man is able to 100% convert to female, its not reasonable to say people should see trans women as the same as people born as women. The differences can be quite large.
You are only aware of those that do not "pass". Those that blend stays invisible and you never second guess them. And trust me, there is a lot of them.
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On August 01 2013 01:51 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person. I don't know if the attraction that you're thinking of goes down that deep. A lot of people are attracted to other things that are not evolutionarily advantageous (see homosexuals, etc.). Since you likely don't know someone is a trans woman then your attraction to them would be based solely on what you see. I can understand a viewpoint of someone saying "I want to my wife to bear my children and thus I wouldn't want a long term relationship with a trans woman" but to argue that they are inherently not attractive seems strange. As for whether the analogy is a good one or not, I guess I can't really see myself dating a black woman. I'm not sure if that's a manifestation of a prejudice, or a benign preference, but I would say that on the whole I find black women less attractive than those of other races.
No, it's not strange for transsexual people not to be inherently not attractive to most heterosexual people. It stems from a very fundamental biological/evolutionary drive.
I also think your example of homosexuality is counter-productive, because homosxuality is a prime example of misdirected sexual attraction. While it's not politically correct, homosexuality is abnormal. It is natural (the same way many other conditions you may be born with are), as in it is not a matter of choice, it is an aberration. As far as I know, it's rooted in an abnormal brain structure (which is potentially caused by hormonal imbalance during prenatal life, IIRC).
On August 01 2013 02:03 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 16:04 maybenexttime wrote:
Well, of course they are. From evolutionary point of view, attraction is largely based on fertility (and genetic diversity), so a woman having had a sex-change is a pretty major turn off on a very fundamental, biological, level. What you said is akin to saying that you're not attracted to fat women is degrading to fat women. No, it's not, and if someone is offended by the fact that they might not be attractive to someone else, they should grow up. This evolutionary argument is one of the most common, fallacious lines of reasoning I see on the internet (probably because even a middle school kid knows about evolution). As if humans can be and should be reduced to biological impulses. It's a reductionist form of thought and only takes into account, on the most fundamental level, genetic factors in determining human behavior when other societal and cultural factors play just as big a role in determining attraction. Heck, when I can turn that around and argue that, from an evolutionary point of view, women should be more attracted to fat men than skinny men, you can easily see the flaw in that, right? I mean, I get what you're saying, and I don't actually care about one's sexual preferences (so long as you are not picking up little kids from a playground, a'ight). Sexual attraction is ultimately something that is very deeply seated in the mind. If you're not sexually attracted to a person, then you can't make yourself feel sexually attracted to them, and arguing over how one should be attracted to Person A rather than Person B, or should feel equal amounts of attraction is just a waste of energy. I am sure that at least some amount of transphobia is ingrained into everyone's brain, but that can't be helped, and the only way to get around it is to become more aware of one's self, assumptions, and actions.
You're arguing a straw man here. I never said that evolutionary drives are all there is to sexual attraction (if you bothered to read my other posts you'd notice that I argued rather the opposite, e.g. saying that I would not be attracted to a former prostitute). That doesn't change the fact that those biological drives are what determines how our sexual attraction is directed, on a very fundamental level. This is why men are not attracted to anything that has a hole, to put it bluntly. A man being attracted to anything other than a woman is, for all intents and purposes, an aberration.
Why should women be attracted to fat men? That doesn't make much sense from an evolutionary point of view, actually. It all depends on the circumstances. When food is scarce, a fat man could be seen as successful. On the other hand, when food is not scarce, he could be seen as lazy and unable to provide for the woman ("how can he take care of me when he can't even take care of himself?").
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Transgender are literally the worse when it comes to playing the bigot-card. Anyone at all who doesn't agree with their opinions on gender and sexuality are instantly attacked and labeled. And then in the same breath are confused by the fact that no one understands them. For me there are obvious differences between a born and trans female and it should come at no surprise that most heterosexual males feel the same.
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On August 01 2013 02:04 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. A trans woman can not get pregnant, making it a false analogy. Additionally, and please do not take this the wrong way, but in every trans person I have met, its not a 100% conversion. There are always obvious amounts of male mixed into the female, sometimes even mostly male. I am not attracted to men, and having male attributes is very unattractive to me. A black woman looks entirely like a woman and not a man at all. And a black woman would be able to have my children. So given the fact that there are 2 different situations, how can you say its my responsibility to change what I want? I think until a man is able to 100% convert to female, its not reasonable to say people should see trans women as the same as people born as women. The differences can be quite large. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:48 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person. I agree it was a bad analogy, but trans women are still real women. Not arguing against anyone's right to only want to sleep with cis women though. I would define a "real" woman as you say, as someone who is 100% woman and does not have any obviously male characteristics. Every trans female I have met, you can look at them and be able to tell. You can see the male attributes. How is that the same? I can understand the cause and I fight for their equality in every regard, but you can't say a trans woman is physically equivalent to a person born a woman. Even disregarding procreation, there are very obvious physical appearance differences.
What about cis-gendered women who are infertile? Are you not sexually attracted to them? I can understand why you might not want to date an infertile woman or a trans woman if you really want to have biological offspring with your partner. But that's a committed serious relationship that extends well beyond mere sexual attraction. If you're talking about plain old poppin a stiffy, I really don't think the infertile argument works.
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On August 01 2013 02:04 Mohdoo wrote:
I would define a "real" woman as you say, as someone who is 100% woman and does not have any obviously male characteristics. Every trans female I have met, you can look at them and be able to tell. You can see the male attributes. How is that the same? I can understand the cause and I fight for their equality in every regard, but you can't say a trans woman is physically equivalent to a person born a woman. Even disregarding procreation, there are very obvious physical appearance differences.
I am sure you're aware of this, but your criteria are a bit lacking. There are easily female-born women ("100% woman") who have male characteristics (e.g. broad shoulders + small hips, masculine face, little-to-no chest, etc.). By your definition, they wouldn't be "real women" either due to their male characteristics.
On August 01 2013 02:12 heliusx wrote:
Transgender are literally the worse when it comes to playing the bigot-card. Anyone at all who doesn't agree with their opinions on gender and sexuality are instantly attacked and labeled. And then in the same breath are confused by the fact that no one understands them. For me there are obvious differences between a born and trans female and it should come at no surprise that most heterosexual males feel the same.
You clearly haven't wandered into radical feminist waters. :O This is actually a very civil discussion. Feel free to contribute something less toxic, lol.
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On August 01 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:04 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. A trans woman can not get pregnant, making it a false analogy. Additionally, and please do not take this the wrong way, but in every trans person I have met, its not a 100% conversion. There are always obvious amounts of male mixed into the female, sometimes even mostly male. I am not attracted to men, and having male attributes is very unattractive to me. A black woman looks entirely like a woman and not a man at all. And a black woman would be able to have my children. So given the fact that there are 2 different situations, how can you say its my responsibility to change what I want? I think until a man is able to 100% convert to female, its not reasonable to say people should see trans women as the same as people born as women. The differences can be quite large. On August 01 2013 01:48 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person. I agree it was a bad analogy, but trans women are still real women. Not arguing against anyone's right to only want to sleep with cis women though. I would define a "real" woman as you say, as someone who is 100% woman and does not have any obviously male characteristics. Every trans female I have met, you can look at them and be able to tell. You can see the male attributes. How is that the same? I can understand the cause and I fight for their equality in every regard, but you can't say a trans woman is physically equivalent to a person born a woman. Even disregarding procreation, there are very obvious physical appearance differences. What about cis-gendered women who are infertile? Are you not sexually attracted to them? I can understand why you might not want to date an infertile woman or a trans woman if you really want to have biological offspring with your partner. But that's a committed serious relationship that extends well beyond mere sexual attraction. If you're talking about plain old poppin a stiffy, I really don't think the infertile argument works.
Klondikebar, at some point you have to give people the option of having personal taste. You can't force them to admit they would be attracted to someone that they don't feel they would be. They are not going to be able to make a logic argument about their personal taste, only that it is theirs and you can ALWAYS make a counter argument that they might be attracted to a transgender person. At best, you should try to make them put their preference at tactfully as possible.
At the end of the day, we are all entitle to date whoever we want and we shouldn't have to justify it to people.
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On August 01 2013 02:12 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:51 packrat386 wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 theodorus12 wrote:On August 01 2013 01:38 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 00:09 theodorus12 wrote:
How can you get so mad over the fact, that someone prefers CIS women over a trans person? It's in our nature to reproduce, so of course, most people would find a real women, capable of giving birth more attractive than one who can't.
Some people really need to get off their liberal high horse and stop thinking everyone has to like everything or else he is a close minded bigot lol I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is transgendered. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else. "I consider myself a pretty damn socially liberal person, but I'd never consider dating someone who is black. I'm all for them having all the rights as everyone else, but people shouldn't be expected to date them just the same as they'd date anyone else." Sorry, just too easy. But say that you don't want to date transgender, I don't care, that's your choice I guess. but don't go and generalize that we should expect the majority of people to not date us. Lots of people with strict sexuality, either heterosexual or homosexual date or are fine with dating trans people. Very bad analogy. A black women is EXACTLY the same as a white women. But a trans "women" is not, she is not capable of giving birth to a child. And because the biological desire to reproduce is in everyone of us, it's only normal, that people are more attracted to a real women than a trans person. I don't know if the attraction that you're thinking of goes down that deep. A lot of people are attracted to other things that are not evolutionarily advantageous (see homosexuals, etc.). Since you likely don't know someone is a trans woman then your attraction to them would be based solely on what you see. I can understand a viewpoint of someone saying "I want to my wife to bear my children and thus I wouldn't want a long term relationship with a trans woman" but to argue that they are inherently not attractive seems strange. As for whether the analogy is a good one or not, I guess I can't really see myself dating a black woman. I'm not sure if that's a manifestation of a prejudice, or a benign preference, but I would say that on the whole I find black women less attractive than those of other races. No, it's not strange for transsexual people not to be inherently not attractive to most heterosexual people. It stems from a very fundamental biological/evolutionary drive. I also think your example of homosexuality is counter-productive, because homosxuality is a prime example of misdirected sexual attraction. While it's not politically correct, homosexuality is abnormal. It is natural (the same way many other conditions you may be born with are), as in it is not a matter of choice, it is an aberration. As far as I know, it's rooted in an abnormal brain structure (which is potentially caused by hormonal imbalance during prenatal life, IIRC).
That has been disproved in natural with several species of animals, all who display homosexual behavior that is not abnormal or due to some brain dysfunction. Any attempt to argue otherwise is silly.
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