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On August 08 2013 04:24 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 03:58 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 03:45 farvacola wrote:
Yeah I was gonna say, BMI is an outdated metric, so why go off that at all? It is still the best correlated metric and commonly accepted in the scientific community. Of course you need to account for other stuff as well, but for it to be completely misleading is not exactly the norm. EDIT: You know what? Nevermind, this is getting too far off-topic in here and TI3 is starting. I don't think this is true. Body fat % is simply superior. The reason BMI is accepted scientifically is because in larger samples, individuals with unusual body compositions dont really matter that much, so they dont bother doing the more difficult measurements.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/24/b-m-i-can-predict-health-risks/?_r=0
I can go and take a look for the peer-reviewed article as well, if you would like me to, but it might have limited access, so figured I would just start with this.
EDIT: Or you could just click the links in the article :p Replying whilst watching TI3 makes me slightly distracted 
EDIT2: You are right that if you are to assess an individual, body fat is superior in some areas. There is just not a whole lot to use that information for as all studies of risk factors are pretty much on BMI. Remember that the context I wrote this in was in reference to quite a few studies that have stratified people by BMI and found longer average lifespan, yet higher incidence of comorbidity.
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On August 08 2013 04:29 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 04:24 Crushinator wrote:On August 08 2013 03:58 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 03:45 farvacola wrote:
Yeah I was gonna say, BMI is an outdated metric, so why go off that at all? It is still the best correlated metric and commonly accepted in the scientific community. Of course you need to account for other stuff as well, but for it to be completely misleading is not exactly the norm. EDIT: You know what? Nevermind, this is getting too far off-topic in here and TI3 is starting. I don't think this is true. Body fat % is simply superior. The reason BMI is accepted scientifically is because in larger samples, individuals with unusual body compositions dont really matter that much, so they dont bother doing the more difficult measurements. http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/24/b-m-i-can-predict-health-risks/?_r=0I can go and take a look for the peer-reviewed article as well, if you would like me to, but it might have limited access, so figured I would just start with this. EDIT: Or you could just click the links in the article :p Replying whilst watching TI3 makes me slightly distracted
There are peer reviewed studies on both sides of that fence.
Association of bodyweight with total mortality and with cardiovascular events in coronary artery disease: a systematic review of cohort studies
The better outcomes for cardiovascular and total mortality seen in the overweight and mildly obese groups could not be explained by adjustment for confounding factors. These findings could be explained by the lack of discriminatory power of BMI to differentiate between body fat and lean mass.
What's funny is that that is pretty much what you posted earlier in regards to what constitutes "healthy"; BMI simply does a poor job of accounting for overall health.
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On August 08 2013 04:32 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 04:29 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 04:24 Crushinator wrote:On August 08 2013 03:58 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 03:45 farvacola wrote:
Yeah I was gonna say, BMI is an outdated metric, so why go off that at all? It is still the best correlated metric and commonly accepted in the scientific community. Of course you need to account for other stuff as well, but for it to be completely misleading is not exactly the norm. EDIT: You know what? Nevermind, this is getting too far off-topic in here and TI3 is starting. I don't think this is true. Body fat % is simply superior. The reason BMI is accepted scientifically is because in larger samples, individuals with unusual body compositions dont really matter that much, so they dont bother doing the more difficult measurements. http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/24/b-m-i-can-predict-health-risks/?_r=0I can go and take a look for the peer-reviewed article as well, if you would like me to, but it might have limited access, so figured I would just start with this. EDIT: Or you could just click the links in the article :p Replying whilst watching TI3 makes me slightly distracted There are peer reviewed studies on both sides of that fence. Association of bodyweight with total mortality and with cardiovascular events in coronary artery disease: a systematic review of cohort studiesShow nested quote +The better outcomes for cardiovascular and total mortality seen in the overweight and mildly obese groups could not be explained by adjustment for confounding factors. These findings could be explained by the lack of discriminatory power of BMI to differentiate between body fat and lean mass. What's funny is that that is pretty much what you posted earlier in regards to what constitutes "healthy"; BMI simply does a poor job of accounting for overall health.
That explanation however is not the commonly accepted one. The common explanation is that they get more time with their doctor and thus their health is more extensively monitored and i.e. cancers are earlier diagnosed.
EDIT: And the reason for that explanation not being commonly accepted is the same as you highlighted yourself when you said:
The reason BMI is accepted scientifically is because in larger samples, individuals with unusual body compositions dont really matter that much, so they dont bother doing the more difficult measurements.
Cohort studies are as the name suggests, conducted in cohorts, so it is unlikely that unusual body compositions should influence the study so much.
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Since many of you obviously didn't get the point of why I posted the link, I'll repeat myself:
Sometimes I wonder if the "average" male (hetero-normative cisgendered etc) understands why assertions like these are made by women.
I'll give you a hint (aka spelling it out better): It doesn't matter what the actual content is. What matters is that groups who do not fall into the category of "the average male" have to create content that allows them to define themselves outside of what they are feeling pressured they should be by a culture that has historically put their needs, perspectives, and desires behind that of those that serve men. I just thought it was pertinent to present in the midst of people declaring sweeping morality modes of thought coming from a system that inherently favors their own life experience and favors them over others.
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United States43021 Posts
You're using privilege wrong. You can't just go "you're a bunch of men creating rules which favour men" without showing that the rules in question do favour men. Given that the argument being made in favour of informed consent is actually a feminist one that condemns cliched male characters like Barney (of How I Met Your Mother) as really quite creepy I think you're pretty far from having shown that.
You don't just get to cry privilege. That's not an argument, it's a declaration. Try again.
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that's fine and all, but that link didn't do anything to articulate that or much of anything at all. even the average male has to deal with most of the shit that was on that list. it was a poor starting point for a conversation if you wanted 'create content that allows them to define themselves outside of what they are feeling pressured they should be by a culture that has historically put their needs, perspectives, and desires behind that of those that serve men' which i am sure everyone would agree with
e: and yeah i overlooked that last line and didnt realize what it pertained to. agree with kwark 100%
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On August 08 2013 04:44 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Since many of you obviously didn't get the point of why I posted the link, I'll repeat myself: Show nested quote +
Sometimes I wonder if the "average" male (hetero-normative cisgendered etc) understands why assertions like these are made by women.
I'll give you a hint (aka spelling it out better): It doesn't matter what the actual content is. What matters is that groups who do not fall into the category of "the average male" have to create content that allows them to define themselves outside of what they are feeling pressured they should be by a culture that has historically put their needs, perspectives, and desires behind that of those that serve men. I just thought it was pertinent to present in the midst of people declaring sweeping morality modes of thought coming from a system that inherently favors their own life experience and favors them over others.
Your mistake in arguing from that perspective is that it is still hopelessly essential in how it views gender; you are assuming that, because I am a white male, that my interaction with society has somehow certainly been better than someone with a different identity. In other words, my gender and race are being used to say something about my life without any actual interaction with what has transpired in my short 24 years on this planet, and this is exactly why gender essentialism is blind and rather useless past a certain point. My having grown up with a single mother and dealing with custody battles, living in poverty, struggling with childhood obesity along with many other trials I've faced are entirely subverted when you say that my life is in step with systematic gender norms enough for you to make sweeping proclamations as to my personal experience with "privilege". This is not to say that my being a white male has not provided me with benefits, but my gender and race hardly exclude me from sympathizing with transgendered folk or those who have identity/society issues.
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I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
It reminds me of this thing I heard one time about how men's greatest fear about a date or casual sex scenario is having his feelings or ego hurt whereas a woman's is being raped or even murdered.
These imaginary scenarios that you are playing out in your minds with no real actual experience to base it off of resulting in the overflowing amounts of fear and outrage at the imagined situation makes me laugh, frankly. You're not even living it. You're just imagining it. And this is how upset you are. This is how much you are screaming and fighting and struggling. I'd say "welcome to our world", but you're not even here. It's just your imagination.
"I'm not privileged! I'm not entitled! Blah blah blah"
"Cool story, bro."
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had that whole disclosure talk with some of my friends and i represented "kwarks" standpoint. (informed consent / reasonable to assume transphobe)
while they all started off like I did with a "she doesn't owe him shit".
eventually we all just got depressed about how terrible society is.
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On August 08 2013 05:07 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
No, we just demand that our personal feelings are not valued any less or less legitimate than another persons - which is really the same thing everyone else is demanding.
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Also, the other thing that I feel the need to point out is the very quick and poignant backlash to the very idea of "privilege" being invoked. Too many people take it as an attack on themselves. "Privilege" is not an individual's fault and most often, they have no control over it. Try not to take it as a personal attack. It's just something that is and is something you benefit from which may or may not affect your perspective and I didn't use that word for two reasons. First, it didn't occur to me to consider using it and, secondly, it has so many negative connotations associated with it that it makes people get overly-defensive and essentially halts any effective communication.
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On August 08 2013 05:07 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
It reminds me of this thing I heard one time about how men's greatest fear about a date or casual sex scenario is having his feelings or ego hurt whereas a woman's is being raped or even murdered.
These imaginary scenarios that you are playing out in your minds with no real actual experience to base it off of resulting in the overflowing amounts of fear and outrage at the imagined situation makes me laugh, frankly. You're not even living it. You're just imagining it. And this is how upset you are. This is how much you are screaming and fighting and struggling. I'd say "welcome to our world", but you're not even here. It's just your imagination.
"I'm not privileged! I'm not entitled! Blah blah blah"
"Cool story, bro."
Actually, my greatest fear is to be falsely accused of rape or sexual assault, being arrested, losing my job and being forced to hire an attorney for a crime I did not commit. And having no recourse due to the fact that the person that accused me has no money.
But you know, my feelings being hurt sucks too.
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On August 08 2013 05:16 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 05:07 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
No, we just demand that our personal feelings are not valued any less or less legitimate than another persons - which is really the same thing everyone else is demanding.
That is perfectly fine. Just as I have situational privilege in queer circles that my feelings are considered before the "everyman's", I'm merely suggesting that on a societal level, the everyman is the one who enjoys that privilege.
*Ideally*, there'd be equality. That's not reality, though.
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On August 08 2013 05:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 05:07 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
It reminds me of this thing I heard one time about how men's greatest fear about a date or casual sex scenario is having his feelings or ego hurt whereas a woman's is being raped or even murdered.
These imaginary scenarios that you are playing out in your minds with no real actual experience to base it off of resulting in the overflowing amounts of fear and outrage at the imagined situation makes me laugh, frankly. You're not even living it. You're just imagining it. And this is how upset you are. This is how much you are screaming and fighting and struggling. I'd say "welcome to our world", but you're not even here. It's just your imagination.
"I'm not privileged! I'm not entitled! Blah blah blah"
"Cool story, bro." Actually, my greatest fear is to be falsely accused of rape or sexual assault, being arrested, losing my job and being forced to hire an attorney for a crime I did not commit. And having no recourse due to the fact that the person that accused me has no money.But you know, my feelings being hurt sucks too.
We have something in common <3
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On August 08 2013 05:07 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
It reminds me of this thing I heard one time about how men's greatest fear about a date or casual sex scenario is having his feelings or ego hurt whereas a woman's is being raped or even murdered.
These imaginary scenarios that you are playing out in your minds with no real actual experience to base it off of resulting in the overflowing amounts of fear and outrage at the imagined situation makes me laugh, frankly. You're not even living it. You're just imagining it. And this is how upset you are. This is how much you are screaming and fighting and struggling. I'd say "welcome to our world", but you're not even here. It's just your imagination.
"I'm not privileged! I'm not entitled! Blah blah blah"
"Cool story, bro."
no you did not use the word, you just spelled out male privilege without saying it and are continuing to do so while not addressing anything
i dont even know what the rest of this post is about with imaginary scenarios and shit. what i do know is that you and fugs are hypocrites about consent, which is a very very basic feminist tenant. and more importantly, you two get so amazingly defensive any time someone criticizes anything you two say. busting out every single shitty arguing tactic possible it's incredible
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On August 08 2013 05:07 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
It reminds me of this thing I heard one time about how men's greatest fear about a date or casual sex scenario is having his feelings or ego hurt whereas a woman's is being raped or even murdered.
These imaginary scenarios that you are playing out in your minds with no real actual experience to base it off of resulting in the overflowing amounts of fear and outrage at the imagined situation makes me laugh, frankly. You're not even living it. You're just imagining it. And this is how upset you are. This is how much you are screaming and fighting and struggling. I'd say "welcome to our world", but you're not even here. It's just your imagination.
"I'm not privileged! I'm not entitled! Blah blah blah"
"Cool story, bro."
I'm bisexual, is that enough for me to share your nonprivelegedness?
In all seriousness, I don't see why this is even relevant. KwarK says that transgendered people should make sure to get proper consent before having sex and your response is "but being transgendered is hard". The fact that your life is more difficult doesn't excuse you from ethics, so I don't know why people keep bringing it up.
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On August 08 2013 05:07 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
It reminds me of this thing I heard one time about how men's greatest fear about a date or casual sex scenario is having his feelings or ego hurt whereas a woman's is being raped or even murdered.
These imaginary scenarios that you are playing out in your minds with no real actual experience to base it off of resulting in the overflowing amounts of fear and outrage at the imagined situation makes me laugh, frankly. You're not even living it. You're just imagining it. And this is how upset you are. This is how much you are screaming and fighting and struggling. I'd say "welcome to our world", but you're not even here. It's just your imagination.
"I'm not privileged! I'm not entitled! Blah blah blah"
"Cool story, bro."
How do you know anything about my life? Where do you get off assuming that anyone who thinks differently than you has no experience with transgendered folk? Therein lies the error in your thinking, that inexperience or ignorance are the only ways that one can think differently than you.
And you might want to work on reading if you genuinely think anything I said resembles "I'm not privileged."
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On August 08 2013 05:26 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 05:07 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
I didn't say "privilege".
I'm just pointing out the possibility that the reason so many of you are so up in arms and terrified is the threat that now your personal feelings aren't placed higher than another's.
It reminds me of this thing I heard one time about how men's greatest fear about a date or casual sex scenario is having his feelings or ego hurt whereas a woman's is being raped or even murdered.
These imaginary scenarios that you are playing out in your minds with no real actual experience to base it off of resulting in the overflowing amounts of fear and outrage at the imagined situation makes me laugh, frankly. You're not even living it. You're just imagining it. And this is how upset you are. This is how much you are screaming and fighting and struggling. I'd say "welcome to our world", but you're not even here. It's just your imagination.
"I'm not privileged! I'm not entitled! Blah blah blah"
"Cool story, bro." I'm bisexual, is that enough for me to share your nonprivelegedness? In all seriousness, I don't see why this is even relevant. KwarK says that transgendered people should make sure to get proper consent before having sex and your response is "but being transgendered is hard". The fact that your life is more difficult doesn't excuse you from ethics, so I don't know why people keep bringing it up.
Exactly. Maybe don't date until you find the gumption to be honest with people. Or if you're afraid of the person's reaction, tell a friend when you're planning to ask someone or something. There are so many other, non shitty ways to do this than what you are advocating.
It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Sleep with someone without telling them. Eventually come clean. Person flips the fuck out because they were deceived and it justifies it in this stupid little cycle
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Could someone summarize what the conversation is about? I'm lost.
Why does a transgendered person have to inform transgenderedness before having sex? I mean, I think that's weird, but that's just not what informed consent refers to. I don't have to inform people that I'm Jewish just in case they're an anti-Semite or something.
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Honestly?
I'm messing with you mostly. I like seeing you all squirm.
I have no interest in having sex with men who strike me as being sheltered and wouldn't be cool with who I am. I value myself more than that.
But maybe... just maybe, I'll give it a shot.
We're out there. WOOOoooOOoOOOOOOooooo~....
Seriously though. Y'all should be asking yourselves why you're so invested in this particular topic. It's not like you have personalities that are siren's calls to transsexuals. Relax, bros. The evil trannies looking to rape you don't know where you live. Even if we went and peered into a different home's window every night, it's pretty unlikely we'd be looking into yours.
This whole conversation about a hypothetical situation is absurd. It reminds me of people talking about how trannies just want to use women's restrooms because they're perverted and are looking to rape someone.
Keep letting your fearful imaginations override reality if you want, though. I know that this topic is super serious to you and a planet-wide policy of how to handle these decepticunts needs to be agreed upon as soon as possible. I, for one, salute you and your bravery as you face your internal fears and demons so that you may declare how the rest of us should live so that we can say "that's nice, dear" and decide how to live for ourselves.
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EPT
