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On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia  What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences
It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational.
I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem.
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On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
[quote]
It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right.
While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity:
present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia
quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia.
Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem.
Well to be fair to everyone, I can wrap my head around the idea that someone can be born a man, but have their gender be a woman. But I have been told its true, seen it for personally and learn that even though I cannot imagine it myself, I accept that it is fact.
Much the same way you can't change, maybe they can't change either?
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On August 04 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem. Well to be fair to everyone, I can wrap my head around the idea that someone can be born a man, but have their gender be a woman. But I have been told its true, seen it for personally and learn that even though I cannot imagine it myself, I accept that it is fact. Much the same way you can't change, maybe they can't change either?
Yeah but it's one of those things where information leads to a logical conclusion. Medical science says that transsexual people are the gender they say they are. Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist. You're saying the person is lying by using your own reality to substitute their own.
I understand people will be dicks and not be able to change but why's it any different than denying evolution? They can deny it all they want but they're still wrong.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist
No offense there, but unless bipolar disorder has a definition i don't know, they usually are not (:
Your point stands for other stuff though
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On August 04 2013 10:50 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
[quote]
Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though.
If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia.
Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem. Well to be fair to everyone, I can wrap my head around the idea that someone can be born a man, but have their gender be a woman. But I have been told its true, seen it for personally and learn that even though I cannot imagine it myself, I accept that it is fact. Much the same way you can't change, maybe they can't change either? Yeah but it's one of those things where information leads to a logical conclusion. Medical science says that transsexual people are the gender they say they are. Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist. You're saying the person is lying by using your own reality to substitute their own. I understand people will be dicks and not be able to change but why's it any different than denying evolution? They can deny it all they want but they're still wrong.
It sounds like you have accepted it and know it is true. It may not be the case for someone else other people and they may not be able to change their minds. I can't will myself to become attracted to a woman that I am not, regardless of the reason. I have ex girlfriends that I was attracted to at one point, but now I would not be due to knowledge of who they are. No amount of will power or understanding is going to change that.
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On August 04 2013 11:03 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist No offense there, but unless bipolar disorder has a definition i don't know, they usually are not (: Your point stands for other stuff though
Oh sorry, I have bipolar and there are times when I'll hallucinate. It only happens during really bad depression though, otherwise it's just voices. I know they aren't real but you can't tell me that I'm not hearing or seeing them because I am which is the point I was trying to get across if that makes any sense.
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On August 04 2013 11:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 10:50 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus:
"Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?"
Edit:
[quote]
I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem. Well to be fair to everyone, I can wrap my head around the idea that someone can be born a man, but have their gender be a woman. But I have been told its true, seen it for personally and learn that even though I cannot imagine it myself, I accept that it is fact. Much the same way you can't change, maybe they can't change either? Yeah but it's one of those things where information leads to a logical conclusion. Medical science says that transsexual people are the gender they say they are. Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist. You're saying the person is lying by using your own reality to substitute their own. I understand people will be dicks and not be able to change but why's it any different than denying evolution? They can deny it all they want but they're still wrong. It sounds like you have accepted it and know it is true. It may not be the case for someone else other people and they may not be able to change their minds. I can't will myself to become attracted to a woman that I am not, regardless of the reason. I have ex girlfriends that I was attracted to at one point, but now I would not be due to knowledge of who they are. No amount of will power or understanding is going to change that.
I'm not saying you should be attracted to them just that they're women. I don't think it's fair that being trans is a deal breaker but I guess I have to accept the fact that people see it that way.
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On August 04 2013 11:07 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 11:03 Cyro wrote:Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist No offense there, but unless bipolar disorder has a definition i don't know, they usually are not (: Your point stands for other stuff though Oh sorry, I have bipolar and there are times when I'll hallucinate. It only happens during really bad depression though, otherwise it's just voices. I know they aren't real but you can't tell me that I'm not hearing or seeing them because I am which is the point I was trying to get across if that makes any sense.
Ok then, sorry for that. I was close friends with a few bipolar people and read a lot about it, don't think hallucinations are common
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On August 04 2013 11:10 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 11:07 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 11:03 Cyro wrote:Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist No offense there, but unless bipolar disorder has a definition i don't know, they usually are not (: Your point stands for other stuff though Oh sorry, I have bipolar and there are times when I'll hallucinate. It only happens during really bad depression though, otherwise it's just voices. I know they aren't real but you can't tell me that I'm not hearing or seeing them because I am which is the point I was trying to get across if that makes any sense. Ok then, sorry for that. I was close friends with a few bipolar people and read a lot about it, don't think hallucinations are common
No need to be sorry :p It happens to some people with major depressive disorder too, maybe it's just something about severe depression. Idk, I'm not a doctor. Though I'm probably wrong and I could just be crazy you never know~
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On August 04 2013 11:10 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 11:06 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 10:50 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:[quote] You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem. Well to be fair to everyone, I can wrap my head around the idea that someone can be born a man, but have their gender be a woman. But I have been told its true, seen it for personally and learn that even though I cannot imagine it myself, I accept that it is fact. Much the same way you can't change, maybe they can't change either? Yeah but it's one of those things where information leads to a logical conclusion. Medical science says that transsexual people are the gender they say they are. Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist. You're saying the person is lying by using your own reality to substitute their own. I understand people will be dicks and not be able to change but why's it any different than denying evolution? They can deny it all they want but they're still wrong. It sounds like you have accepted it and know it is true. It may not be the case for someone else other people and they may not be able to change their minds. I can't will myself to become attracted to a woman that I am not, regardless of the reason. I have ex girlfriends that I was attracted to at one point, but now I would not be due to knowledge of who they are. No amount of will power or understanding is going to change that. I'm not saying you should be attracted to them just that they're women. I don't think it's fair that being trans is a deal breaker but I guess I have to accept the fact that people see it that way.
It doesn't matter what you want to be true. What you want to be true and what isn't true are different things
I am not attracted to trans women in the way I am attracted to a born women. This will never change no matter the scientific knowledge and data that is available to me. It doesn't make me "transphobic." The fact that you can't wrap your head around how someone can't consider a trans women to be just women shows at least a small amount of narrow mindedness on your part.
I accept the science that shows that trans people are the gender they identify with, regardless of their physical make, but I just can't help but see trans men and women differently than born men and women. I have a very close friend who is MtF trans, and I still have a difficult time relating to her or treating her like I would a normal women friend. I still see her in the way I saw her 5 years ago as a guy friend. I try my best to see her as a women but it's impossible for me.
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On August 04 2013 11:23 Papulatus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 11:10 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 11:06 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 10:50 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
[quote]
What is AIS and the significance of it?
See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them.
If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem. Well to be fair to everyone, I can wrap my head around the idea that someone can be born a man, but have their gender be a woman. But I have been told its true, seen it for personally and learn that even though I cannot imagine it myself, I accept that it is fact. Much the same way you can't change, maybe they can't change either? Yeah but it's one of those things where information leads to a logical conclusion. Medical science says that transsexual people are the gender they say they are. Saying otherwise is like telling a bipolar person that they aren't seeing and hearing people that don't exist. You're saying the person is lying by using your own reality to substitute their own. I understand people will be dicks and not be able to change but why's it any different than denying evolution? They can deny it all they want but they're still wrong. It sounds like you have accepted it and know it is true. It may not be the case for someone else other people and they may not be able to change their minds. I can't will myself to become attracted to a woman that I am not, regardless of the reason. I have ex girlfriends that I was attracted to at one point, but now I would not be due to knowledge of who they are. No amount of will power or understanding is going to change that. I'm not saying you should be attracted to them just that they're women. I don't think it's fair that being trans is a deal breaker but I guess I have to accept the fact that people see it that way. It doesn't matter what you want to be true. What you want to be true and what isn't true are different things I am not attracted to trans women in the way I am attracted to a born women. This will never change no matter the scientific knowledge and data that is available to me. It doesn't make me "transphobic." The fact that you can't wrap your head around how someone can't consider a trans women to be just women shows at least a small amount of narrow mindedness on your part. I accept the science that shows that trans people are the gender they identify with, regardless of their physical make, but I just can't help but see trans men and women differently than born men and women. I have a very close friend who is MtF trans, and I still have a difficult time relating to her or treating her like I would a normal women friend. I still see her in the way I saw her 5 years ago as a guy friend. I try my best to see her as a women but it's impossible for me.
That's your hangup but just because you think that way doesn't make it right. You being stuck in her past is your inability to let go and it's really not fair to her. No matter how tolerant you're attempting to act it's still tainted. I think there's a difference between being tolerant and accepting. You can tolerate that trans people exist without accepting them as real women. Tolerate all you want but it doesn't make you an open minded or better individual for doing so ^,^
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On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
[quote]
It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right.
While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity:
present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia
quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia.
Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem.
It's not like people aren't picky about everything else when it comes to finding a partner, I don't know why this particular thing bothers you so much.
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On August 04 2013 11:34 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem. It's not like people aren't picky about everything else when it comes to finding a partner, I don't know why this particular thing bothers you so much.
Just because people are picky doesn't mean I can't be bothered by what they're picky about.
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On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
[quote]
It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right.
While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity:
present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia
quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia.
Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem.
I am fine with people having any preference and acting on it however they want, short of impinging on other people's basic rights. I don't even think people need medical documentation to justify their preferences. If somebody tells me he enjoys getting spat in the eyes, I will respect that without further ado. I will not feel obliged to personally do any spitting.
The first part where there's a problem, is where somebody labels a preference as irrational and indecent. It is particularly ironic in this thread, where people should know the problems with people thinking they have the right to police other people's sexual lives.
The second part where there's a problem, is where you try to dictate what sort of distinctions I am allowed to care about and demand that I use the same word for two things I consider conceptually different. I reserve the right to draw a distinction between natural born women and male to female transsexuals if this seems meaningful to me, regardless of how meaningless you might find it.
I do not want to violate anybody's basic rights based on this distinction, nor do I suggest that the law should differentiate on this basis.
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On August 04 2013 11:54 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 10:36 fugs wrote:On August 04 2013 10:04 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough". Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation? - If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace - If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences It's a medical issue that's been well documented and studied so yes, just as rational as taking care of a cleft palate as it's unsightly and causes emotional distress. The surgery isn't necessary to everyone but it will make the person's life better which is why it's rational. I really can not wrap my head around why people can't see trans women as just women and it confuses me as to why it's such a big problem. I am fine with people having any preference and acting on it however they want, short of impinging on other people's basic rights. I don't even think people need medical documentation to justify their preferences. If somebody tells me he enjoys getting spat in the eyes, I will respect that without further ado. I will not feel obliged to personally do any spitting. The first part where there's a problem, is where somebody labels a preference as irrational and indecent. It is particularly ironic in this thread, where people should know the problems with people thinking they have the right to police other people's sexual lives. The second part where there's a problem, is where you try to dictate what sort of distinctions I am allowed to care about and demand that I use the same word for two things I consider conceptually different. I reserve the right to draw a distinction between natural born women and male to female transsexuals if this seems meaningful to me, regardless of how meaningless you might find it. I do not want to violate anybody's basic rights based on this distinction, nor do I suggest that the law should differentiate on this basis.
You can think whatever you want, if you want to think that all people are really carrots then by all means do so; but I don't think that gives you the right to deny someone's identity based on your own personal beliefs.
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I'm not trying to police anyone's sexual life. It is so completely ridiculous that this strawman keeps being made. I don't care who you sleep with. But if you come in here and say you won't sleep with a woman because she's black or a transsexual woman because she is trans, then yea, I'm going to call that indecent. Because you are being prejudiced against someone for nothing other than how they were born. That doesn't mean I'm controlling your sexual life, or that I want to. All it means is that I'm pointing out that your preferences reveal harmful underlying attitudes.
I reserve the right to draw a distinction between natural born women and male to female transsexuals if this seems meaningful to me, regardless of how meaningless you might find it.
And I reserve the right to point out that this distinction has no scientific basis behind it, and contributes to transphobia.
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On August 04 2013 12:36 shinosai wrote:I'm not trying to police anyone's sexual life. It is so completely ridiculous that this strawman keeps being made. I don't care who you sleep with. But if you come in here and say you won't sleep with a woman because she's black or a transsexual woman because she is trans, then yea, I'm going to call that indecent. Because you are being prejudiced against someone for nothing other than how they were born. That doesn't mean I'm controlling your sexual life, or that I want to. All it means is that I'm pointing out that your preferences reveal harmful underlying attitudes. Show nested quote + I reserve the right to draw a distinction between natural born women and male to female transsexuals if this seems meaningful to me, regardless of how meaningless you might find it. And I reserve the right to point out that this distinction has no scientific basis behind it, and contributes to transphobia.
1. I don't think anyone said they wouldn't sleep with someone because they were black
2. It's not really a matter of indecency. At worst, they're just being shallow or picky.
Your definition of transphobia is diluted to the point where it isn't even necessarily a bad thing.
If someone didn't want to sleep with me because I was cis instead of trans, I wouldn't consider them an indecent person any more than would I be upset with someone who didn't want to sleep with me because I was white - which is roughly on the level of not one fuck given. At worst, I might think them a little shallow or picky.
Definitely wouldn't consider them racist against white people because that just makes a mockery of what actual racism is. I think the likewise is true for what you understand as racism against black people or what actual transphobia is.
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On August 04 2013 12:36 shinosai wrote:I'm not trying to police anyone's sexual life. It is so completely ridiculous that this strawman keeps being made. I don't care who you sleep with. But if you come in here and say you won't sleep with a woman because she's black or a transsexual woman because she is trans, then yea, I'm going to call that indecent. Because you are being prejudiced against someone for nothing other than how they were born. That doesn't mean I'm controlling your sexual life, or that I want to. All it means is that I'm pointing out that your preferences reveal harmful underlying attitudes. Show nested quote + I reserve the right to draw a distinction between natural born women and male to female transsexuals if this seems meaningful to me, regardless of how meaningless you might find it. And I reserve the right to point out that this distinction has no scientific basis behind it, and contributes to transphobia.
Get out of my bedroom please.
Because no matter how many times you say you aren't going in there, there you are, underneath the bed or in the closet or behind the drapes.
Exactly what harmful underlying attitudes are being revealed by a lack of sexual attraction to a certain classifiable section of humanity.
The exact same kind of crazy you're pushing can also be used against straight people for not being attracted to the same sex or gay people not being attracted to the opposite sex; what kind of harmful underlying attitudes are being revealed there?
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On August 04 2013 14:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 12:36 shinosai wrote:I'm not trying to police anyone's sexual life. It is so completely ridiculous that this strawman keeps being made. I don't care who you sleep with. But if you come in here and say you won't sleep with a woman because she's black or a transsexual woman because she is trans, then yea, I'm going to call that indecent. Because you are being prejudiced against someone for nothing other than how they were born. That doesn't mean I'm controlling your sexual life, or that I want to. All it means is that I'm pointing out that your preferences reveal harmful underlying attitudes. I reserve the right to draw a distinction between natural born women and male to female transsexuals if this seems meaningful to me, regardless of how meaningless you might find it. And I reserve the right to point out that this distinction has no scientific basis behind it, and contributes to transphobia. Get out of my bedroom please. Because no matter how many times you say you aren't going in there, there you are, underneath the bed or in the closet or behind the drapes. Exactly what harmful underlying attitudes are being revealed by a lack of sexual attraction to a certain classifiable section of humanity. The exact same kind of crazy you're pushing can also be used against straight people for not being attracted to the same sex or gay people not being attracted to the opposite sex; what kind of harmful underlying attitudes are being revealed there?
In your examples the person is never attracted to them. What is being discussed is being attracted to someone and then not when you are told they're trans. That change is based on nothing but attitudes towards and beliefs about trans people (typically for trans women - 'she's a man' or concerns about being 'gay'), and is therefore likely based in some form of transphobia.
As I've said a few times though, and to repeat so no one thinks I'm trying to insult anyone, that doesn't make the individual transphobic, but the nature of that change is what was being discussed.
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On August 04 2013 14:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 12:36 shinosai wrote:I'm not trying to police anyone's sexual life. It is so completely ridiculous that this strawman keeps being made. I don't care who you sleep with. But if you come in here and say you won't sleep with a woman because she's black or a transsexual woman because she is trans, then yea, I'm going to call that indecent. Because you are being prejudiced against someone for nothing other than how they were born. That doesn't mean I'm controlling your sexual life, or that I want to. All it means is that I'm pointing out that your preferences reveal harmful underlying attitudes. I reserve the right to draw a distinction between natural born women and male to female transsexuals if this seems meaningful to me, regardless of how meaningless you might find it. And I reserve the right to point out that this distinction has no scientific basis behind it, and contributes to transphobia. Get out of my bedroom please. Because no matter how many times you say you aren't going in there, there you are, underneath the bed or in the closet or behind the drapes. Exactly what harmful underlying attitudes are being revealed by a lack of sexual attraction to a certain classifiable section of humanity. The exact same kind of crazy you're pushing can also be used against straight people for not being attracted to the same sex or gay people not being attracted to the opposite sex; what kind of harmful underlying attitudes are being revealed there?
You CANNOT come to a thread like this, have a discussion about issues like this and then when someone points out a flaw in your reasoning relegate your argument to "GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY SEXUAL LIFE!".
What the fuck!
And yeah what Iyerbeth said. If you find someone attractive as a woman and later find out that she's trans and think that's good enough of a reason to IMMEDIATELLY discontinue the relationship for that reason alone, I do see it as a clear connection to transphobia. It's an understandable reaction due to our culture, but I still see it as irrational.
I do believe that if we did some more digging into people's subconscious (including mine) we *would* find thoughts "there's a man in there", "that person once had a penis, that's disgusting", "what will my friends think" and the like.
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