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On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:On August 04 2013 04:58 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion? Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it. Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them. You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears. Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one. Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference. By the way I dont feel that way. I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah.
It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right.
While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't).
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On August 04 2013 07:28 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:On August 04 2013 04:58 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion? Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it. Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them. You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears. Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one. Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference. By the way I dont feel that way. I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? I don't see how having personal aesthetic rules or standards translates into a phobia. Well, one of the requirements for phobias is that they have to be irrational. This is why phobia examples relating to race and trans status are more relevant to the discussion than say, obesity or promiscuity. We might say that you have negative attitudes toward obesity and promiscuity, but in order to have a phobia, it'd have to be at least somewhat irrational. For the purposes of this discussion, finding someone unattractive is not irrational. Finding someone unattractive solely and exclusively because of their race (*not* how they look, but their race) probably is.
That's fair enough.
Hypothetically, I see a white-looking girl and I'm attracted to her. I find out her grandfather is black. If this repulses me away from her, I would consider it somewhat irrational.
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On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:
[quote]
Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it.
Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them.
You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears. Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one. Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference. By the way I dont feel that way. I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't).
In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason.
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On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one.
Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference.
By the way I dont feel that way. I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason.
Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though.
If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values.
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On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:On August 04 2013 04:58 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion? Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it. Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them. You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears. Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one. Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference. By the way I dont feel that way. I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data.
ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia.
Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia?
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On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values.
I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus:
"Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?"
Edit:
On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:
[quote]
Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it.
Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them.
You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears. Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one. Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference. By the way I dont feel that way. I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia?
I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia.
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On August 04 2013 06:27 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 06:01 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 05:55 maybenexttime wrote:On August 04 2013 05:49 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 05:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 04 2013 05:09 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 01:18 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 23:20 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 21:19 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 21:07 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
He specifically said "I will not judge them". In Pope speak, that's saying that he is ok with them. You're manipulating what he said, like socially liberal media did. "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" He clearly implied that in order to search for God you need to try to abstain from sinful activity, as you cannot have good will and deliberately lead a sinful life. You can read more about it here: http://catholicism.about.com/b/2013/07/30/pope-francis-on-homosexuality-take-a-deep-breath.htm Oh man my bad, I forgot that the mythical language of Pope Speak can only be translated by experts. I should know better and leave it to the experts, the Conservative media and anyone who would want to roll back that statement. After all, they are the best ones to inform me on what he meant and that it didn't change anything. Making up my own mind would be to difficult. I read the quote and I know what he said and the question that was asked. I know that the statement does not change the entire Catholic church's stance on gays. However, he did not condemn gay people for being gay and said he did not feel it was his place to judge them. If the head of the Catholic church is unwilling to judge someone for being gay, one can assume he also means no one else should. This is a huge change in tone. You then lack reading comprehension because what the pope said was perfectly in line with the Church's teachings in that regard. In stead of going off on a tangent, based solely on your misinformed opinion of what the Church teaches about homosexuality, maybe you should inform yourself. Not to mention the fact that he did condemn homosexual activism and lobbying. Stop imagining things. Right, I read it and saw a bunch of conservatives running a website attempting to make an argument that the statement did not mean the Pope approved of being gay. I mean, that is what you do when the leader of the Church makes a statement that group may not agree with. Calling me uninformed does not make that less true. I also find it amusing that you are having a case of selective memory right now, because the Pope stated he was not sure there was a "lobby" within the Church, as he had "never seen their ID cards". He then stated he did not approve of any lobby within the church. But I am sure both the conservatives and liberals will have very creative interpretations of his statements and what they mean. He certainly did not approve of being gay - what is there to approve or disapprove of? He was sympathetic of them, which, again, is perfectly in line with what the Church teaches. He outright referred to the Catechism, and used the word "sin" as regards the alleged homosexual activity of Ricca. That couldn't have been more straightforward. But somehow you are making it into some kind of a step forward. "Being gay is not the problem, lobbying is the problem (...)" - I am not having selective memory. Whether there is a lobby has nothing to do with the fact that he plainly said that homosexual lobbying is wrong in his view. As I said, people will see the statements the way they want and justify that view with whatever reason they can think of. Your going word for word, I am taking it in context to previous statements form the church on the issue. I think you are talking about statements selectively chosen by left wing media. I live in a predominantly Catholic country. I've met many priest and religion teachers and not a single one of them, literally not a single one of them, said anything different from what the pope said recently. I really think you have a biased and skewed view of what the Church teaches as regards homosexuality and thought it was being closer to Westboro Baptist Church than anything else. Right, exactly, My points of view are given to me by the left wing media and yours are the truth, despite the fact that you read the right wing media. If course you are correct, you have the correct, real interpenetration of the quote and mine was given to me by the left wing media because I can't think for myself. And I am sure the priest that agree with that view are also 100% correct as well. After all, they agree with your point of view, so why wouldn't they be right. Well, clearly your views of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding homosexuality are in line with what the left wing media say about it, otherwise you wouldn't have thought that what the pope said is somehow different or a step forward. I take what he said at face value, while you are trying to find some hidden meaning or something. When saying you're relying on what the left wing media tell you, I am talking strictly about your comment regarding previous statements. I am telling you, for the past ten years that I was interested in the topic of homosexuality I have not met a priest or religion teacher that said anything that was any different from what the pope said recently. To claim there is a significant change means you probably used to rely on biased sources. And even if I were to concede that there is achange when it comes to semantics, there is absolutely no change when it comes to the heart of the matter, so I wouldn't blow it out of proportion. Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 06:06 Wheats wrote:On August 04 2013 05:55 maybenexttime wrote:On August 04 2013 05:49 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 05:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 04 2013 05:09 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2013 01:18 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 23:20 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 21:19 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 21:07 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
He specifically said "I will not judge them". In Pope speak, that's saying that he is ok with them. You're manipulating what he said, like socially liberal media did. "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" He clearly implied that in order to search for God you need to try to abstain from sinful activity, as you cannot have good will and deliberately lead a sinful life. You can read more about it here: http://catholicism.about.com/b/2013/07/30/pope-francis-on-homosexuality-take-a-deep-breath.htm Oh man my bad, I forgot that the mythical language of Pope Speak can only be translated by experts. I should know better and leave it to the experts, the Conservative media and anyone who would want to roll back that statement. After all, they are the best ones to inform me on what he meant and that it didn't change anything. Making up my own mind would be to difficult. I read the quote and I know what he said and the question that was asked. I know that the statement does not change the entire Catholic church's stance on gays. However, he did not condemn gay people for being gay and said he did not feel it was his place to judge them. If the head of the Catholic church is unwilling to judge someone for being gay, one can assume he also means no one else should. This is a huge change in tone. You then lack reading comprehension because what the pope said was perfectly in line with the Church's teachings in that regard. In stead of going off on a tangent, based solely on your misinformed opinion of what the Church teaches about homosexuality, maybe you should inform yourself. Not to mention the fact that he did condemn homosexual activism and lobbying. Stop imagining things. Right, I read it and saw a bunch of conservatives running a website attempting to make an argument that the statement did not mean the Pope approved of being gay. I mean, that is what you do when the leader of the Church makes a statement that group may not agree with. Calling me uninformed does not make that less true. I also find it amusing that you are having a case of selective memory right now, because the Pope stated he was not sure there was a "lobby" within the Church, as he had "never seen their ID cards". He then stated he did not approve of any lobby within the church. But I am sure both the conservatives and liberals will have very creative interpretations of his statements and what they mean. He certainly did not approve of being gay - what is there to approve or disapprove of? He was sympathetic of them, which, again, is perfectly in line with what the Church teaches. He outright referred to the Catechism, and used the word "sin" as regards the alleged homosexual activity of Ricca. That couldn't have been more straightforward. But somehow you are making it into some kind of a step forward. "Being gay is not the problem, lobbying is the problem (...)" - I am not having selective memory. Whether there is a lobby has nothing to do with the fact that he plainly said that homosexual lobbying is wrong in his view. As I said, people will see the statements the way they want and justify that view with whatever reason they can think of. Your going word for word, I am taking it in context to previous statements form the church on the issue. I think you are talking about statements selectively chosen by left wing media. I live in a predominantly Catholic country. I've met many priest and religion teachers and not a single one of them, literally not a single one of them, said anything different from what the pope said recently. I really think you have a biased and skewed view of what the Church teaches as regards homosexuality and thought it was being closer to Westboro Baptist Church than anything else. In that saying acting upon homosexual impulses is wrong and a sin, but if you have them and go against that very natural urge, being one that occurs in non-human species and many non-christian societies, you can be found acceptable? No, the Church is generally sympathetic towards "sinners" (using quotation marks because, as an atheist, I don't embrace the idea of "sin"). Show nested quote +I don't believe the pope said anything more than gay people who don't act on their impulses should be allowed to be preachers or whatever. The same is required of straight people, so in fact the previous disallowment of gay pastors/fathers/what-have-you was entirely hypocritical and unnecessary, and this current change of pace is really not one at all. He never said he accepted homosexuality, he just said (paraphrased) "Resist your nature and you can be one of us," which I don't feel is all that healthy of an attitude especially as it applies to many other aspects of religious life, e.g. shaming for being promiscuous. First of all, you can be part of the Catholic Church while being a sinner, so there's no such ultimatum. Second of all, that is no different from people who are prone to succombing to gluttony, alcoholism, pre-marital sex, or such. Or from people who suffer from kleptomania, etc. Afaik, he actually sustained the notion that people with homosexual tendencies should be discouraged from priesthood. Maybe in another statement, can't remember. I don't think it's that much different from a Hinduist telling me I'm a sinner because I eat cow meat when cows are holy animals. I am not going to lose sleep because of that.
I took what he said as face value as well. But our opinions differ on what he meant. You are clearly reading into it as you see fit and I am doing the same.
This is the part where you tell me I don't understand the Catholic Church and I am listening to the options given to me by the liberal media and that you know the true of it all.
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On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia.
Just curious.
I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?"
In that very specific case with the symbols of person A and B I can grant it would be irrational, but I never saw that in the original post. I guess that lead to the confusion.
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On August 04 2013 07:47 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
In that very specific case though with the symbols of person A and B I can grant it would be irrational, but I never saw that in the original post. I guess that led to the confusion.
Hm, we apparently reached the limit of a quote tree as I couldn't quote your whole post, lol. Edit: Oh I was quoting after you had editted, sorry. Will edit this post to match.
In the real world, where the question could be read as the person says they're no longer X then I would agree it's probably not an irrational fear. If you know something to be true though, yet you think it might be false, you either don't know it or you have an irrational thought.
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On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia.
Just curious.
I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one.
Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference.
By the way I dont feel that way. I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia.
You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/
Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though.
Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden.
That, to me, is transphobia 
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On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no.
To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia
What is AIS and the significance of it?
See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them.
If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either).
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On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
ok thanks for the answer.
Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia.
Just curious.
I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either).
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.
To give an example, there is (wild) speculation that Jamie Lee Curtis has AIS.
Yeah I personally would say it could be a phobia, but I wouldnt say it has to be.
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On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
ok thanks for the answer.
Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:
[quote]
Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia.
Just curious.
I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either).
I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone...
I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine.
Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes.
Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia.
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Ultimately, preference is rarely, if ever, rational. Moralizing preferences is going to be accordingly difficult.
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On August 04 2013 08:30 farvacola wrote:
Ultimately, preference is rarely, if ever, rational. Moralizing preferences is going to be accordingly difficult.
Shhhhh, we're having fun arguing about it.
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On August 04 2013 08:30 farvacola wrote:
Ultimately, preference is rarely, if ever, rational. Moralizing preferences is going to be accordingly difficult.
Klondikebar would beg to disagree.
+ Show Spoiler +- Why do you like flowers?
- I dunno, I just like their smell, and they're colourful.
- But why do you like their smell?
- I don't know.
- But why? Why?! WHY?!
- I DON'T KNOW. JUST BECAUSE!
- You f'ing sheep!
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On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no.
To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia.
The fundamental difference in my opinion is that this criteria is irrational. A lot of guys might easily find a trans woman attractive in the first place. If the only criteria why they suddenly get "creeped out" is because they found out that she's trans, I would call that a phobia. It ties in to belief that somehow "there's a man somewhere in there" and some kind of pride for your sexual orientation and all other such nonsense.
I mean, it's an understandable reaction and I can relate to that (I really don't know how I would react if a chick I was into turned out to be trans), but I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough".
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On August 04 2013 08:30 farvacola wrote:
Ultimately, preference is rarely, if ever, rational. Moralizing preferences is going to be accordingly difficult.
It's not really irrational either. It's just nonrational.
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On August 04 2013 09:01 MidKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 08:26 Seam wrote:On August 04 2013 08:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:41 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:35 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:33 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 07:25 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
[quote]
How are those phobias?
You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? Nope, but in that example the person had a problem with someone who in the past was promiscuous. It might weigh in on your decision of whether you want a long term relationship, or if it's something which has real impact now (in the example, it didn't) but if it's just you worrying about something for no reason, yeah. It does have an impact though. Maybe to you it's worrying about something for no reason because you don't place any negative value on promiscuity, but that doesn't mean your value system is right. While a promiscuous past isn't a dealbreaker for me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to consider it a negative. I honestly can't see any rational way you can argue I have a phobia because of that. It seems like you're just trying to impose your value system on others and judge them accordingly (which isn't necessarily uncommon, but don't paint it as something it isn't). In the example given it was specifically asked if a Christian viewing it as a dealbreaker with someone who is completely monogomous is a phobia. I didn't say you couldn't view it as negative (I specificially said otherwise) and I certainly didn't try to impose my value system on anyone. I have said repeatedly in this thread (literally, this is probably the 20th or so time) that I haven't even called anyone transphobic - with the exception of KwarK but I was upset and my name calling was obviously sarcastic. I certainly haven't judged anyone, so please don't make sure claims without good reason. Sorry if I misread you then. I don't see how being christian is relevant though. If you're an individual who doesn't want relations with someone who had a promiscuous past though, I don't see how that translates into a phobia. You did say those two examples "yes" both would be a phobia, when I fail to see how. They're a matter of personal preferences and values. I didn't take the Christian point in to consideration as I wouldn't know how to having no real idea what it would mean, or if there could be some kind of standard response. I said the promiscuity one was a phobia in that instance, because the person knew their prospective partner was now completely monogomous. If someone is monogomous and you fear them cheating on you, that's an irrational fear. It probably has a rational basis, and I could understand someone being cautious about it, but the example was very specific in it's question which I read as thus: "Person A wouldn't cheat. Person B knows person A wouldn't cheat. Person B fears person A will cheat. Is this rational?" Edit: On August 04 2013 07:38 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 07:16 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 07:13 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:
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ok thanks for the answer.
Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. Thanks for the answers. Correct me if Im wrong, but is this the gist of how you and others in this thread reason around phobias as it relates to sexual activity: present physical or non-physical quality being a turnoff = not (necessarily) a phobia quality that relates to the past (ie having the present quality of having had a certain quality in the past whether physical or non-physical) being a turnoff = always a phobia. Would that be a fair summation? by non-physical I mean anything from political ideology to being presently promiscuous I wouldn't be quite happy with that, but close enough. It's really about having an irrational fear of something because of a perceived piece of meta data. ok thanks. Ill have to think about this. Intuitively I wouldnt categorically put anything and everything that deals with a persons past as phobia. Hmm... In order to actually exclude any possible physical argument, lets assume there is a braintransplant procedure and a transwoman has her brain put in a female body (xx chromosomes, uterus and the rest). Mr Bean then meets this hot chick and wants to bang, but once her past is shared he feels turned off. Is that a phobia? Its does seem irrational, is that enough for it to be a phobia? I would say probably, but it needn't necessarily be a transphobia. You read the christian example correctly. It wasnt a great analogy either, its really hard to completely lock down every possibility in hypotheticals :/ Im still not sure if simply being irrational in their sexual preferences is enough for someone to be having a phobia. For me there would have to be irrational fear and/or disgust involved. Ill think about this a bit more though. Lets assume Mr Bean is dating a beautiful woman. She has told him she has AIS (ie she is xy) and he knows all the implications. Hes allright with that, no problem. Eventually she finds out she actually doesnt have AIS but is transgender (lets assume she has amnesia so she actually didnt remember her past). She tells Mr Bean and he is turned off all of a sudden. That, to me, is transphobia What is AIS and the significance of it? See when I hear things like homophobia or transphobia, I think at the very least you have to actually dislike someone because of the fact that they are homosexual or transsexual, maybe even go so far as thinking they are less human, deserve less rights, or want to commit hate crimes against them. If you just aren't attracted to them, it just seems a matter of personal preferences that need not necessarily be motivated by irrational fears (although I won't deny it's possible that they could be, I won't say it's necessarily the case that they need be either). I personally don't see anything wrong with simply not being attracted to anyone... I'm trans. Some people wouldn't want to date someone who's trans, and that's fine. Just like some people don't want to date someone who is a guy or girl. Some people don't want to date people with red hair, or green eyes. Everyone has preferences, and I don't see what someone finds unattractive to be the same as a phobia. I still think that if one wants to be a decent human being, they should try to think about the situation and try to change that about themselves rather than just relegate it to "that's my preference and that's good enough".
Before I jump to any conclusions, is this a correct interpretation?
- If you wish to have your penis surgically altered into a vagina and take hormones to alter your sexual characteristics, that's a rational preference which you are free to embrace
- If you do not want to have sex with a transsexual, you are not a decent human being unless you actively try to change your irrational preferences
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On August 04 2013 07:32 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 07:28 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 07:22 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 06:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 06:32 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 06:21 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:14 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:
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Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it.
Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them.
You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears. Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one. Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference. By the way I dont feel that way. I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature. Fair enough. Would you then also consider a person fatsophobic simply because they feel some level of discomfort when they picture having sex with a very fat person? If yes, ok. If not, please explain. I do appologize for the analogy, its only relevant as it relates to what constitutes a phobia. Just curious. I think the main reason some people are made uncomfortable by the notion of having sex with a transexual is either what I mentioned, being gay by proxy, and/or that it wouldnt look and feel the same once the clothes come off. Would you consider both transphobic or only the first? For the first one, it would depend. If the person were attracted to them but then began to feel worried about what it would mean to sleep with a "disgusting creature like a fat person" or some specific trauma, then it would be a phobic response. If the person just doesn't find an overweight person attractive, then no. To the second, the first reason is (with the same disclaimer that I don't think it makes the person themselves transphobic), the second one no. The second one was harder than I first thought to explain why because it is essentially a fear specifically about trans women that could be founded in just not knowing about something, but I think if there is legitimate reason to think you wouldn't find them attractive then it's not. ok thanks for the answer. Lets say you dont find a transwomans past as a man an attractive notion, in the same vein that a christian may consider past promiscuity a dealbreaker (even if the woman now is monogamous). Still a phobia? Yes, but both are. How are those phobias? You're literally expecting someone to ignore everything about an individual's past. If an individual ever had anything in their past that you find a dealbreaker, you suddenly have a phobia? I don't see how having personal aesthetic rules or standards translates into a phobia. Well, one of the requirements for phobias is that they have to be irrational. This is why phobia examples relating to race and trans status are more relevant to the discussion than say, obesity or promiscuity. We might say that you have negative attitudes toward obesity and promiscuity, but in order to have a phobia, it'd have to be at least somewhat irrational. For the purposes of this discussion, finding someone unattractive is not irrational. Finding someone unattractive solely and exclusively because of their race (*not* how they look, but their race) probably is. That's fair enough. Hypothetically, I see a white-looking girl and I'm attracted to her. I find out her grandfather is black. If this repulses me away from her, I would consider it somewhat irrational.
That's an even higher level of irrationality I guess. If we're talking about general sexual attraction, while not 'irrational' in that imo it conforms to some kind of predetermined value system, there's a lack of controllable rationality there. You can't rationally think yourself into finding somebody attractive.
As distinct from the 'disclosure' argument that is raging, I find disgust based on your perception/subconscious more acceptable than initial acceptance on those terms, and subsequent disgust upon some (non directly harmful) information being available to you.
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