EPTI also like to spend my time misrepresenting other people's views without proof reading. If they express opinions which I think seem odd, I prefer to put words into their mouth rather than ask them to clarify.
LGBT Rights and Gender Equality Thread - Page 122
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Darkwhite
Norway348 Posts
I also like to spend my time misrepresenting other people's views without proof reading. If they express opinions which I think seem odd, I prefer to put words into their mouth rather than ask them to clarify. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
On August 04 2013 23:03 Darkwhite wrote: I also like to spend my time misrepresenting other people's views without proof reading. If they express opinions which I think seem odd, I prefer to put words into their mouth rather than ask them to clarify. Feel free to show where I misrepresented you, I believe that is an honest interpretation of that bit and the other posts in that conversation. | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway348 Posts
On August 04 2013 23:05 Iyerbeth wrote: Feel free to show where I misrepresented you, I believe that is an honest interpretation of that bit and the other posts in that conversation. Primarily where you warped an argument for why making a distinction between born females and male to female transsexuals is within my rights, to implying that I found any number of behaviors acceptable. Also, where you tried to extrapolate from a non-exhaustive list about when rights do kick in, that I find a number of other things acceptable. My list does not explicitly mention that you have a right to not be filmed in public bathrooms. It takes either dishonesty or outright stupidity to jump to the conclusion that I don't consider this a right. In further detail; Formatting is weird here because some people insist on putting original text into quotes: Your rights don't kick in if I: - don't violate your personal space : this is blatantly false; A->B != not A -> not B - Discriminate against you on the basis of whatever I want so long as I can't lose my job : same logic flaw as above - Prop up bigotry in society by arguing that you aren't a woman, despite all evidence to the contrary : propping up bigotry is to fuzzy for me to hold any opinions on; pretending all evidence demands that I lump born women and male to female transsexuals in the same category is outright false - Support bullying in the same regard as above : too fuzzy, I find any sort of bullying unacceptable, but I don't take much responsibility for what others might take as support for their own bullying - Spread your medical information to others : I am honestly not certain what private details about others you have a right to disclose to third parties, somebody else will have to clear this up - Support institutionalised transphobia : too fuzzy - Ignore your wishes to be treated like anyone else : this I actually agree with - I can refuse to have any female, black, jewish or transsexual friends, literally without violating anybody's rights - I can treat a small subset of women I find sexually attractive entirely different than other women, without having to listen to anybody whining about their rights - 'Accidentally' offend you, say by calling you a man or otherwise working to deny you your identity : 'Accidentally' is too ambiguous - demanding that I match my perception of your identity with your own perception of your identity is not within your rights | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On August 04 2013 22:12 Darkwhite wrote: There is a difference between being wrong about facts, i.e. people being carrots, and making a distinction some people consider irrelevant, i.e. transsexuality. If somebody was born in Texas, lived most of his life in Texas and really enjoys rodeo, I will call him a Texan whenever that seems pertinent, even if he's now moved to Boston and self-identifies as just an American. Note that if I went around calling him a New Yorker, despite knowing him to not be one, just because I perceived him as one - that would be me being an idiot. If somebody used to be a serial rapist, but is currently not raping and has no immediate plans for future rape, I am honestly not going to care if he self-identifies as just a normal person, even if that hurts his feelings. If a guy took steroids to build his muscles, even if I really, honestly can't tell by look or feel, even if I had to use my time machine to discover this fact, I am still going to call him a steroid user, regardless of how many arguments he presents about his present body being indistinguishable from a natural one and his medical history being none of my business. The idea that you have any right to dictate how other people are allowed to perceive you is outright preposterous. Your rights kick in if I: - violate your personal space - discriminate against you on the basis of irrelevant criteria when acting as a professional - spread falsehoods about you to other people (note: this does not include unpleasant or supposedly irrelevant truths) - go out of my way to be offensive, intentionally Fugs is making an emotional argument, not a rational one. Basically, by refusing to treat her as a normal woman, you're rejecting everything she went through to get to this point, and causing her even more distress. Imagine if you wanted something your whole life, went through an immense amount of effort and pain to obtain it, and once you did finally obtain it, everyone around you went "Nope, doesn't count", and that's pretty much the situation. The actual argument is largely circular as well: "I'm a woman, so treat me like one." "But you were originally a man." "But I'm a woman now." "But you were originally a man." "But I'm a woman now." And it just continues. Not that you need to bend to her will and treat her like a normal woman just because she wants to be treated that way, just keep in mind this isn't a simple matter of perception. There's a very good reason the transwomen in this thread are getting so worked up. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
On August 04 2013 23:47 Darkwhite wrote: Primarily where you warped an argument for why making a distinction between born females and male to female transsexuals is within my rights, to implying that I found any number of behaviors acceptable. Also, where you tried to extrapolate from a non-exhaustive list about when rights do kick in, that I find a number of other things acceptable. My list does not explicitly mention that you have a right to not be filmed in public bathrooms. It takes either dishonesty or outright stupidity to jump to the conclusion that I don't consider this a right. In further detail; Formatting is weird here because some people insist on putting original text into quotes: Your rights don't kick in if I: - don't violate your personal space : this is blatantly false; A->B != not A -> not B - Discriminate against you on the basis of whatever I want so long as I can't lose my job : same logic flaw as above - Prop up bigotry in society by arguing that you aren't a woman, despite all evidence to the contrary : propping up bigotry is to fuzzy for me to hold any opinions on; pretending all evidence demands that I lump born women and male to female transsexuals in the same category is outright false - Support bullying in the same regard as above : too fuzzy, I find any sort of bullying unacceptable, but I don't take much responsibility for what others might take as support for their own bullying - Spread your medical information to others : I am honestly not certain what private details about others you have a right to disclose to third parties, somebody else will have to clear this up - Support institutionalised transphobia : too fuzzy - Ignore your wishes to be treated like anyone else : this I actually agree with - I can refuse to have any female, black, jewish or transsexual friends, literally without violating anybody's rights - I can treat a small subset of women I find sexually attractive entirely different than other women, without having to listen to anybody whining about their rights - 'Accidentally' offend you, say by calling you a man or otherwise working to deny you your identity : 'Accidentally' is too ambiguous - demanding that I match my perception of your identity with your own perception of your identity is not within your rights Ok, so first I knew the list wasn't exhaustive and didn't intend to imply otherwise. The rest I would agree to be correct if I hadn't read your other posts in that conversation, so I'l; demonstrate what I mean. - don't violate your personal space : this is blatantly false; A->B != not A -> not B Won't disagree on that one. - Discriminate against you on the basis of whatever I want so long as I can't lose my job : same logic flaw as above Your posts in that conversation were continually arguing for your right to say trans people are at best a seperate gender, and thus can be discriminated against in your personal life. This is why I believe you took care to mention in a professional role, rather than any other. - Prop up bigotry in society by arguing that you aren't a woman, despite all evidence to the contrary : propping up bigotry is to fuzzy for me to hold any opinions on; pretending all evidence demands that I lump born women and male to female transsexuals in the same category is outright false Propping up bigotry would be such things as arguing that women and other women fall in to one group while other women sharing qualities as both of the previous groups should be treated as an outside group by society so long as they're not legally treated differently. - Support bullying in the same regard as above : too fuzzy, I find any sort of bullying unacceptable, but I don't take much responsibility for what others might take as support for their own bullying When you attempt to argue that one group of women should be denied their identity at your discretion and treated as a third or fourth gender, that is bullying. Supporting others do the same so long as it's not in a professional role is supporting bullying. - Spread your medical information to others : I am honestly not certain what private details about others you have a right to disclose to third parties, somebody else will have to clear this up You stated you're allowed to say anything about anyone even if they find it unpleasant so long as it's true. This sounded a lot like "I'll tell others you're trans if I find out and am asked or otherwise feel like sharing the gossip". Considering this is such a wide spread problem already, I found it particularly disturbing to actually see it written somewhere. - Support institutionalised transphobia : too fuzzy So I actually had two points to post here, but apparently I had misread something - sorry. Suggesting there is nothing wrong with people's 'right' to deny the gender of an individual across society will likely lead to institutionalised transphobia however (similar to the Russian gay thing atm). - Ignore your wishes to be treated like anyone else : this I actually agree with - I can refuse to have any female, black, jewish or transsexual friends, literally without violating anybody's rights - I can treat a small subset of women I find sexually attractive entirely different than other women, without having to listen to anybody whining about their rights It's true, I wasn't meaning to suggest you didn't have that right, I was just making what I believe was your intention clearer. - 'Accidentally' offend you, say by calling you a man or otherwise working to deny you your identity : 'Accidentally' is too ambiguous - demanding that I match my perception of your identity with your own perception of your identity is not within your rights Again, I really wasn't being sarcastic, you do have that right and it's what you were trying to say when you said the original version "- go out of my way to be offensive, intentionally". That was the point in my translation. I'll leave this here... On August 01 2013 06:37 Darkwhite wrote: People are described as gay or homosexual when people think their sexual orientation matters, too, even though they fit in the wider umbrella of men or even people in other contexts. Is this also a problem? People are described as cis or trans on the few occasions it matters, too, even though they fit in the wider umbrella of women or even people in other contexts. Is this also a problem? | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
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PaNiCterrran
Sweden47 Posts
On August 04 2013 18:06 MidKnight wrote: Ok, that's fair. It's possible that for some people it's impossible to fix these subconscious biases and, yeah, maybe calling them transphobic is too harsh, I don't know. I don't see why you can't call someone phobic due to subconscious fear/discomfort. I am arachnophobic. I don't decide whether or not to be afraid. My fear is irrational as spiders pose no actual threat to me. And yet I have to kill it fucking fast and flush it down the toilet. Let's assume you run into Megan Fox. And because this is just a made-up scenario, you sleep with her. One week later it is revealed in the papers that Megan Fox was born Magnus Fox. If you, upon knowing this, feel disgust/anger or any other kind of negative emotion upon receiving this information, you are most likely a bit transphobic. You are not necessarily a bad person because of this. You might even be a very tolerant person who vote for LGBT rights etc. but it doesn't change the fact that there would have been no actual difference whether or not Megan was trans, and yet you are moved by the fact that you slept with her. That's how I see it atleast. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4781 Posts
On August 04 2013 21:58 shinosai wrote: You are really, really good at changing the discussion from something very specific (not dating someone for an exclusive reason) and then changing that reason to something else. Which is what you did here. We went from "I don't want to date trans people for no other reason than that they are trans" to "I don't want to date trans people because I want kids." The difference seems rather obvious, but it's a very useful diversionary tactic in order to intentionally misrepresent the argument and make it look absurd. That was my first post in at least 40 pages in this thread. I reacted to someone stating that the only reason behind all unwillingness to date trans genders was transphobia. I gave 2 examples of how that was wrong and now you want to make it seem like I somehow substantially altered the discussion? Talk about using cheap tricks and misrepresenting people. EDIT: I have reread the post I originally responded as well as my response. I think you misunderstand what I am saying. The post I responded to wrote: I do believe that if we did some more digging into people's subconscious (including mine) we *would* find thoughts "there's a man in there", "that person once had a penis, that's disgusting", "what will my friends think" and the like I responded to that part - which even you will have to admit is a more general segment about why people could possibly want not to date transgenders. EDIT2: I am sorry for not having answered lyerbeth(?) earlier, but was away from a laptop for most of the day. The reason why I think "most" is better and more precise than "almost all the time" might be because I grew up in Copenhagen and now live in San Francisco. There do not seem to be a whole lot of XXXXphobes (except for real medical phobias) around either of those places, so it is based off the transgenders with whom I have had this discussion who listed the 2 examples as their most often heard ones. I thus feel like "almost all the time" is a little excessive. Admittedly I might be biased and it is probably something that fluctuates from location to location. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
On August 05 2013 04:00 Ghostcom wrote: EDIT2: I am sorry for not having answered lyerbeth(?) earlier, but was away from a laptop for most of the day. The reason why I think "most" is better and more precise than "almost all the time" might be because I grew up in Copenhagen and now live in San Francisco. There do not seem to be a whole lot of XXXXphobes (except for real medical phobias) around either of those places, so it is based off the transgenders with whom I have had this discussion who listed the 2 examples as their most often heard ones. I thus feel like "almost all the time" is a little excessive. Admittedly I might be biased and it is probably something that fluctuates from location to location. That's actually really good to hear, I hadn't even considered the location issue. I think I'm probably right for where I'm at, but I guess I can't actually extrapolate that for everywhere. If nothing else, it's at least nice to consider it's a bit better elsewhere. | ||
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RaspberrySC2
United States168 Posts
Recounted for those who are obsessively invested in who trans women have sexual encounters with. Friday night, I went downtown to have my nipples pierced. I arrived at the studio an hour before closing and while there weren't many other people there, I had gotten there just in time to be the last client they would accept for the day. I had to wait for everyone else before me to get their piercings so I was sitting there getting even more anxious about the ordeal. At one point, I considered just leaving because the thought crossed my mind that this was a crazy idea and what was I thinking? The thoughts passed through me, but I remained seated on the lounge. The last client before me was escorted out of the studio as the piercer, James, was clarifying the aftercare regimen that the client would need to stick to. James locked the door behind the client and turned to me and asked if I was ready and I gave an unsteady nod and a determined smile. He led me to one of the rooms near the front and while I was in there, I could hear a tattoo artist still working on someone near the back. James asked me to take off my top so he could examine my anatomy and started explaining to me the process and that he had already had two sets of bars disinfecting for me. He told me that the curved bars would be better and that I should lay down on the reclining examination chair. He started manipulating my right nipple to get it as hard and erect as it could and the whole time I was gasping as he was being a little rough with it. By this point I had been keeping my eyes closed. Eventually I felt a firmer grip than any either followed by him piercing me. I cried out a few times in extreme pain and moaned loudly in extreme pleasure. Before I finished, he cooed "look at you, you took that like a champ" and I could feel myself smile as my body was washed over with wave after wave of euphoria and I could barely speak much at all. James asked if I wanted a cup of water and I could barely push out a yes as my head nodded while my eyes were still rolled back. He patted my shoulder and came back with a cup and placed his hand on the top of my head to let me know he had returned. I think he had noticed how much I was writhing and understood that I was in my own little world. After I finished the water and come to my senses a bit, he asked if I was ok and ready to do the next one. "Oh, yes~!" I replied enthusiastically and said he'd be right back because he wanted to have another cup of water ready for me. When he returned, the same song and dance happened again, but this time as he was reaching across to screw the securing balls onto the bar, I found myself nuzzling his forearm with my face and cooing and moaning softly. James let me continue for a while as I sang softly to myself and then he reached down with both of his hands and started massaging my breasts. I could hear his breathing getting heavier and I slowly allowed my eyes to open and as I looked up at him, I could see him smiling warmly down at me. I smiled back and let him continue as I closed my eyes again and reached around the small of his back as I pulled him closer to where I was laying down so I could nuzzle his body. My face eventually pressed against the crotch of his jeans and I could feel his hardness when he gave a small nervous chuckle. I smiled again, but in a few seconds, a foreign laugh came from the back of the studio and snapped me out of my trance and as I realized that we weren't alone, I started to calm down and eventually pulled away. "I'm sorry" James said, "it just felt like it would be ok to do." I told him it was ok and apologized myself for losing myself in the feelings that overcame me and led to me snuggling his arm in the first place. He assured me it was ok that I did. He changed the subject towards my piercing aftercare as he handed me the cup of water he had prepared. As I admired my new piercings in the mirror and started putting my top back on, he handed me an aftercare pamphlet that he had written his name and personal number on - "call me for anything." I thanked him for everything and wished him a good night as he led me out the studio door and locked the door behind me. I stood outside the door for a minute as I processed what had just happened and immediately felt like a guilty rapist because I remembered this thread and the people herein. This is all a true story except for the last paragraph. I didn't think about this at all until this lazy Sunday afternoon and I thought I might type this up to give an insight into what an actual casual sexual experience is like and how it plays out. If no one else was in the studio, I probably would have given James a hand job at the least if he wanted it because I was that worked up. If this makes me immoral, I'm ok with that and I'd do it again. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4781 Posts
On August 05 2013 04:33 shinosai wrote: Ghostcom - fair enough. I apologize for any misunderstandings between us. I feel like we tend to agree so I kinda assumed that was the case, but I wanted to give props for the apology! @lyerbeth: I am sad to hear, but suspected as much  Oh well, at least some areas are better than others, though sadly none seem to be good. | ||
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TheRealArtemis
687 Posts
On August 05 2013 04:39 RaspberrySC2 wrote: "My Friday Night" Recounted for those who are obsessively invested in who trans women have sexual encounters with. Friday night, I went downtown to have my nipples pierced. I arrived at the studio an hour before closing and while there weren't many other people there, I had gotten there just in time to be the last client they would accept for the day. I had to wait for everyone else before me to get their piercings so I was sitting there getting even more anxious about the ordeal. At one point, I considered just leaving because the thought crossed my mind that this was a crazy idea and what was I thinking? The thoughts passed through me, but I remained seated on the lounge. The last client before me was escorted out of the studio as the piercer, James, was clarifying the aftercare regimen that the client would need to stick to. James locked the door behind the client and turned to me and asked if I was ready and I gave an unsteady nod and a determined smile. He led me to one of the rooms near the front and while I was in there, I could hear a tattoo artist still working on someone near the back. James asked me to take off my top so he could examine my anatomy and started explaining to me the process and that he had already had two sets of bars disinfecting for me. He told me that the curved bars would be better and that I should lay down on the reclining examination chair. He started manipulating my right nipple to get it as hard and erect as it could and the whole time I was gasping as he was being a little rough with it. By this point I had been keeping my eyes closed. Eventually I felt a firmer grip than any either followed by him piercing me. I cried out a few times in extreme pain and moaned loudly in extreme pleasure. Before I finished, he cooed "look at you, you took that like a champ" and I could feel myself smile as my body was washed over with wave after wave of euphoria and I could barely speak much at all. James asked if I wanted a cup of water and I could barely push out a yes as my head nodded while my eyes were still rolled back. He patted my shoulder and came back with a cup and placed his hand on the top of my head to let me know he had returned. I think he had noticed how much I was writhing and understood that I was in my own little world. After I finished the water and come to my senses a bit, he asked if I was ok and ready to do the next one. "Oh, yes~!" I replied enthusiastically and said he'd be right back because he wanted to have another cup of water ready for me. When he returned, the same song and dance happened again, but this time as he was reaching across to screw the securing balls onto the bar, I found myself nuzzling his forearm with my face and cooing and moaning softly. James let me continue for a while as I sang softly to myself and then he reached down with both of his hands and started massaging my breasts. I could hear his breathing getting heavier and I slowly allowed my eyes to open and as I looked up at him, I could see him smiling warmly down at me. I smiled back and let him continue as I closed my eyes again and reached around the small of his back as I pulled him closer to where I was laying down so I could nuzzle his body. My face eventually pressed against the crotch of his jeans and I could feel his hardness when he gave a small nervous chuckle. I smiled again, but in a few seconds, a foreign laugh came from the back of the studio and snapped me out of my trance and as I realized that we weren't alone, I started to calm down and eventually pulled away. "I'm sorry" James said, "it just felt like it would be ok to do." I told him it was ok and apologized myself for losing myself in the feelings that overcame me and led to me snuggling his arm in the first place. He assured me it was ok that I did. He changed the subject towards my piercing aftercare as he handed me the cup of water he had prepared. As I admired my new piercings in the mirror and started putting my top back on, he handed me an aftercare pamphlet that he had written his name and personal number on - "call me for anything." I thanked him for everything and wished him a good night as he led me out the studio door and locked the door behind me. I stood outside the door for a minute as I processed what had just happened and immediately felt like a guilty rapist because I remembered this thread and the people herein. This is all a true story except for the last paragraph. I didn't think about this at all until this lazy Sunday afternoon and I thought I might type this up to give an insight into what an actual casual sexual experience is like and how it plays out. If no one else was in the studio, I probably would have given James a hand job at the least if he wanted it because I was that worked up. If this makes me immoral, I'm ok with that and I'd do it again. Felt like reading a dirty novel O_o Jokes aside. Its totally up to you. I'm one of those people that want Trans genders to identify themselves before engaging in any type of relationship, but there little to nothing "we"/I can do about it. But he might not have cared so you shouldn't feel so guilty. However, cant really say much that hasn't already been said. Other to say If I had been that guy, knowing what I know, I would have been pretty stressed out flirting with someone I know isn't a cis woman. If that is the correct term. | ||
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RaspberrySC2
United States168 Posts
On August 05 2013 05:01 TheRealArtemis wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 05 2013 04:39 RaspberrySC2 wrote: "My Friday Night" Recounted for those who are obsessively invested in who trans women have sexual encounters with. Friday night, I went downtown to have my nipples pierced. I arrived at the studio an hour before closing and while there weren't many other people there, I had gotten there just in time to be the last client they would accept for the day. I had to wait for everyone else before me to get their piercings so I was sitting there getting even more anxious about the ordeal. At one point, I considered just leaving because the thought crossed my mind that this was a crazy idea and what was I thinking? The thoughts passed through me, but I remained seated on the lounge. The last client before me was escorted out of the studio as the piercer, James, was clarifying the aftercare regimen that the client would need to stick to. James locked the door behind the client and turned to me and asked if I was ready and I gave an unsteady nod and a determined smile. He led me to one of the rooms near the front and while I was in there, I could hear a tattoo artist still working on someone near the back. James asked me to take off my top so he could examine my anatomy and started explaining to me the process and that he had already had two sets of bars disinfecting for me. He told me that the curved bars would be better and that I should lay down on the reclining examination chair. He started manipulating my right nipple to get it as hard and erect as it could and the whole time I was gasping as he was being a little rough with it. By this point I had been keeping my eyes closed. Eventually I felt a firmer grip than any either followed by him piercing me. I cried out a few times in extreme pain and moaned loudly in extreme pleasure. Before I finished, he cooed "look at you, you took that like a champ" and I could feel myself smile as my body was washed over with wave after wave of euphoria and I could barely speak much at all. James asked if I wanted a cup of water and I could barely push out a yes as my head nodded while my eyes were still rolled back. He patted my shoulder and came back with a cup and placed his hand on the top of my head to let me know he had returned. I think he had noticed how much I was writhing and understood that I was in my own little world. After I finished the water and come to my senses a bit, he asked if I was ok and ready to do the next one. "Oh, yes~!" I replied enthusiastically and said he'd be right back because he wanted to have another cup of water ready for me. When he returned, the same song and dance happened again, but this time as he was reaching across to screw the securing balls onto the bar, I found myself nuzzling his forearm with my face and cooing and moaning softly. James let me continue for a while as I sang softly to myself and then he reached down with both of his hands and started massaging my breasts. I could hear his breathing getting heavier and I slowly allowed my eyes to open and as I looked up at him, I could see him smiling warmly down at me. I smiled back and let him continue as I closed my eyes again and reached around the small of his back as I pulled him closer to where I was laying down so I could nuzzle his body. My face eventually pressed against the crotch of his jeans and I could feel his hardness when he gave a small nervous chuckle. I smiled again, but in a few seconds, a foreign laugh came from the back of the studio and snapped me out of my trance and as I realized that we weren't alone, I started to calm down and eventually pulled away. "I'm sorry" James said, "it just felt like it would be ok to do." I told him it was ok and apologized myself for losing myself in the feelings that overcame me and led to me snuggling his arm in the first place. He assured me it was ok that I did. He changed the subject towards my piercing aftercare as he handed me the cup of water he had prepared. As I admired my new piercings in the mirror and started putting my top back on, he handed me an aftercare pamphlet that he had written his name and personal number on - "call me for anything." I thanked him for everything and wished him a good night as he led me out the studio door and locked the door behind me. I stood outside the door for a minute as I processed what had just happened and immediately felt like a guilty rapist because I remembered this thread and the people herein. This is all a true story except for the last paragraph. I didn't think about this at all until this lazy Sunday afternoon and I thought I might type this up to give an insight into what an actual casual sexual experience is like and how it plays out. If no one else was in the studio, I probably would have given James a hand job at the least if he wanted it because I was that worked up. If this makes me immoral, I'm ok with that and I'd do it again. Felt like reading a dirty novel O_o Jokes aside. Its totally up to you. I'm one of those people that want Trans genders to identify themselves before engaging in any type of relationship, but there little to nothing "we"/I can do about it. But he might not have cared so you shouldn't feel so guilty. However, cant really say much that hasn't already been said. Other to say If I had been that guy, knowing what I know, I would have been pretty stressed out flirting with someone I know isn't a cis woman. If that is the correct term. If it felt like reading a dirty novel, then I at least managed to get some of the feeling and emotion involved across. The point that I'm getting across is that being in the moment and passionate from a place of loving feeling is very very different than fear-based analysis far removed from reality. At no point did it cross my mind to stop what we were doing so that I could pull out a mental meta-morality chart to discuss with my partner-in-the-moment. Lust, emotion, and all-around good feelings were what ruled there. It was a very human experience where neither of us felt compelled to dive into potential hangups and discuss fears because there was none there. It's ok to feel weird or stressed because it's processing, I just merely encourage that anyone going through it own their own emotions and allow themselves to process through a filter of love instead of a filter of fear. | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway348 Posts
On August 05 2013 00:24 Iyerbeth wrote: Ok, so first I knew the list wasn't exhaustive and didn't intend to imply otherwise. The rest I would agree to be correct if I hadn't read your other posts in that conversation, so I'l; demonstrate what I mean. Won't disagree on that one. Then stop pretending you are qualified translate my posts. I am not at all fine with such rhetorical nonsense. If you want to extrapolate something beyond what I write, then ask a question and I will tell you my opinion myself. Stop pretending people mean completely different things than what they actually write, even if that makes it easier to argue with them. Your posts in that conversation were continually arguing for your right to say trans people are at best a seperate gender, and thus can be discriminated against in your personal life. This is why I believe you took care to mention in a professional role, rather than any other. At best? I am not making any value judgement, this is stitched from whole cloth. There is nothing inherently more noble about being a natural born woman than a male to female transsexual. I neither want to nor need to dictate what gender a transsexual belongs to, that's a matter of semantics and perceptions which will go nowhere. I want there to be words I can use to make the distinction, without being censored as offensive. I took care to mention professional, because your right to be treated as an equal only extends to people acting in a professional capacity, not their private lives. It means that, if I am recruiting a new manager, I am not allowed to discriminate on criteria which aren't relevant to the candidate's capacity to fill the position. It means if I'm selling gas, I can't turn you away based on your religious affiliation. I can't build a museum which only admits women. You have no such rights when you deal with people in private. This is important. While I am not allowed to not hire someone simply because I perceive him as ugly, I have every right to not be friends with him or refuse to have sexual relations with him. If you want to call this discrimination, then there is a lot of discrimination against less-beautiful, less-witty, less-intelligent, less-pleasant and less-fit people going on. This extremely wide definition of discrimination would mean discrimination isn't necessarily a bad thing. Propping up bigotry would be such things as arguing that women and other women fall in to one group while other women sharing qualities as both of the previous groups should be treated as an outside group by society so long as they're not legally treated differently. It is in my right to distinguish between natural born women and male to female transsexuals. You cannot strip me of that right by showing to other people who aren't me violating your rights, maybe because of my propping and supporting which are uselessly vague terms which allow you to accuse anybody of anything. When you attempt to argue that one group of women should be denied their identity at your discretion and treated as a third or fourth gender, that is bullying. Supporting others do the same so long as it's not in a professional role is supporting bullying. This is mostly a repeat of the above. I would defend people's rights to discriminate against people, for the purposes of friendship, on basis of perceived unpleasantness. I would defend people's rights to discriminate against people, for the purposes of playing bridge, on basis of perceived stupidity. I see no reason why I am not allowed to defend people's rights to discriminate against people, for the purposes of sexual contact, on the basis of perceived transsexuality. I would stand by that statement, however you shifted the different purposes around to different perceived characteristics. I find it ironic that allowing people to act on whatever preferences they might happen to have in their personal lives, as long as they respect other people's rights, is supposedly bullying, unlike trying to dictate what other people are allowed to do in private and what preferences they need to try to change lest they be indecent. You stated you're allowed to say anything about anyone even if they find it unpleasant so long as it's true. This sounded a lot like "I'll tell others you're trans if I find out and am asked or otherwise feel like sharing the gossip". Considering this is such a wide spread problem already, I found it particularly disturbing to actually see it written somewhere. Your reading comprehension really tried my patience. I talked about your positive right to not have people spread falsehoods about you. The reason you are misinterpreting me is that you very crudely tried to invert a non-exhaustive list about positive rights to pretend everything which didn't show up on the original list is endorsed by me, and that you didn't give me any benefit of doubt when the results were absurd. Here's an instructive example: - if Brad Pitt moves in next door, I am allowed to tell my brother That's the guy who starred in Fight Club, even if Brad Pitt is embarrassed about his role in this movie; here, I am passing on public information - if Brad Pitt visits me and I diagnose him with syphilis, I am not allowed to tell my brother about it; here, I am making confidential information public I am not sure what the law says about something you tell me in private and instruct me to keep secret, and I suspect this varies based on jurisdiction, but passing it on would regardless be a violation of trust, which I personally don't find acceptable. This is fairly orthogonal to whether I am obligated to call male to female transsexuals women always and in all contexts when doing so does not disclose anything confidential. So I actually had two points to post here, but apparently I had misread something - sorry. Suggesting there is nothing wrong with people's 'right' to deny the gender of an individual across society will likely lead to institutionalised transphobia however (similar to the Russian gay thing atm). I have barely any idea what institutionalized transphobia is supposed to mean. The same goes for denying gender. I will respond if you can describe more precisely what I am supporting, how, and what you think it will lead to, why, preferably without using terms exclusive to gender studies. It's true, I wasn't meaning to suggest you didn't have that right, I was just making what I believe was your intention clearer. I am discussing what rights people have and don't have. There is literally no need to try to bring my intentions into this, except to try to make ad hominem attacks on my character instead of sticking to the actual topic. Stop with the underhanded rhetoric if you want to have a civil discussion. I hope you can distinguish between where I say I can do something without violating people's rights and the fantasy land where this is something I either acutally do or want to do. Again, I really wasn't being sarcastic, you do have that right and it's what you were trying to say when you said the original version "- go out of my way to be offensive, intentionally". That was the point in my translation. I have never said that it's okay to on purpose accidentally offend anybody. I refuse to have this nonsense assigned to me as my opinion, particularly with an intentionally ambiguous phrasing like 'accidentally' which everybody will interpret however they want. Because any ambiguity will clearly be interpreted as uncharitably as possible, I will take the time to clarify: - If you cause offense by misunderstanding social codes, you are not violating anybody's rights, though you might be an awkward person - If you cause offense by being wrong about facts, you are not violating anybody's rights, though you might be uninformed, unobservant or unintelligent - If you cause offense because every reasonable way to talk about a concept will cause offense, and you have a valid reason to talk about the concept, you are not violating anybody's rights - If you cause offense on purpose, when you didn't need to, but simply wanted to hurt someone, you are violating somebody's rights - If you cause offense on purpose, yet try to feign innocence, for instance by claiming the excusable offensiveness of (1-3), you are violating somebody's rights - If you take offense on purpose, in an attempt to regulate what other people are allowed to think or say, you are violating somebody's freedoms of thought and speech, which are more important than your right to not be offended I'll leave this here... People are described as cis or trans on the few occasions it matters, too, even though they fit in the wider umbrella of women or even people in other contexts. Is this also a problem? I can't see any problem with that, as long as people are individually allowed to decide when they want to make the distinction without being under the scrutiny of the offensiveness police. Furthermore, this isn't a permissible loophole for people to deliberately misinform by hiding under a wider umbrella term or a different interpretation: see Bill Clinton's I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Edit: Fixed an example which was ambiguous about the professional/private distinction. | ||
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fugs
United States135 Posts
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Ghostcom
Denmark4781 Posts
On August 05 2013 09:29 fugs wrote: I wonder if people still question the validity of that 50% suicide rate ratio for trans people. Yeah keep fighting over their identity you're doing the world a favor after all, right? Outstanding argumentation you got going on there. | ||
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fugs
United States135 Posts
On August 05 2013 09:32 Ghostcom wrote: Outstanding argumentation you got going on there. Oh yeah, hard to argue with death. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4781 Posts
Yes because what this thread needs is more pathos and less logos. Keep it up. | ||
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