EPTNorth Korea says/does surprising and alarming thing - Page…
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ImAbstracT
519 Posts
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:24 iMAniaC wrote: "For the sake of humanity"... I really don't think we're the ones to use those words. I think it actually takes away from our humanity that we as a race have allowed over 20 million people to live for several decades under an oppressive regime that fails to provide them with the food they need so that they are several inches shorter, on average, than their genetically similar brothers to the south and regularly have huge famines that kill off a part of the population. It takes away from our humanity that we as a race, after having seen the terrors of concentration camps, have allowed similar concentration camps to exist for decades in that country, knowing full well the horrors that go on there. It takes away from our humanity that for the sake of our petty geopolitical quarrels, the situation has remained unchanged and no real progress has been made for decades. If the North Korean population knew just how short the straw that's been pulled for them is, and if they knew how well off almost all of the rest of the world is in comparison, then they could say that they starve, get tortured and die for the sake of the rest of humanity. But if it were truly for the sake of our humanity as a whole, we'd have put aside our differences and made an end to the Kim regime long ago. Regrettably, it's all too human to let others suffer so that we can be better off, but that's not "for the sake of humanity", that's "for the sake of myself", and that's what the UN could say: "For the sake of us rich and lucky guys, let the Kims commit all sort of atrocities uninterrupted, so that we don't have to get involved". Well said, and I completely agree. Based on what we know, we owe it to the north korean ppl to liberate them, but we don't, because we aren't willing to make the sacrifices that would be required in this situation. I know that many South Koreans are fighting for this cause every day, and I really feel for them. It's a lot easier to just avoid the problem. It just drains you, knowing what goes on over there, everything that goes on in your own life just seems meaningless. That's why most of them act like North Korea doesn't exist. They have to, in order to go on living a normal life. | ||
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takingbackoj
United States684 Posts
On April 06 2013 06:45 ninini wrote: Well said, and I completely agree. Based on what we know, we owe it to the north korean ppl to liberate them, but we don't, because we aren't willing to make the sacrifices that would be required in this situation. I know that many South Koreans are fighting for this cause every day, and I really feel for them. It's a lot easier to just avoid the problem. It just drains you, knowing what goes on over there, everything that goes on in your own life just seems meaningless. That's why most of them act like North Korea doesn't exist. They have to, in order to go on living a normal life. I think most governments would like to liberate NK's people but the problem is how would we go about doing so? America catches flak from around the world constantly (sometimes rightly so) because of the way we bully other nations. NK is facing strong sanctions already thats about all that can be done barring their govt. attacking another country. We can't just attack them because while they pose no threat to America, they do pose a threat to our close allies in SK and Japan as well as China and every other country in the area. Plus we (the US) already have a negative image around the world due to the two most recent operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, I can just imagine the hate we would get around the world if we were to attempt to overthrow their govt. without being attacked first. I feel bad for the North Korean citizens but honestly, there isn't much more America can do unless NK jumps first. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:24 iMAniaC wrote: "For the sake of humanity"... I really don't think we're the ones to use those words. I think it actually takes away from our humanity that we as a race have allowed over 20 million people to live for several decades under an oppressive regime that fails to provide them with the food they need so that they are several inches shorter, on average, than their genetically similar brothers to the south and regularly have huge famines that kill off a part of the population. It takes away from our humanity that we as a race, after having seen the terrors of concentration camps, have allowed similar concentration camps to exist for decades in that country, knowing full well the horrors that go on there. It takes away from our humanity that for the sake of our petty geopolitical quarrels, the situation has remained unchanged and no real progress has been made for decades. If the North Korean population knew just how short the straw that's been pulled for them is, and if they knew how well off almost all of the rest of the world is in comparison, then they could say that they starve, get tortured and die for the sake of the rest of humanity. But if it were truly for the sake of our humanity as a whole, we'd have put aside our differences and made an end to the Kim regime long ago. Regrettably, it's all too human to let others suffer so that we can be better off, but that's not "for the sake of humanity", that's "for the sake of myself", and that's what the UN could say: "For the sake of us rich and lucky guys, let the Kims commit all sort of atrocities uninterrupted, so that we don't have to get involved". At the same time, how do you plan to liberate those 20 million people? If it could have been done without an utterly unacceptable death toll and risk to neighbouring countries, we would have done it years, if not decades ago. The fact remains that the North-Korean government is basically using its own population as a meat shield and will probably not hesitate to bomb Seoul to kingdom come if they feel they have nothing left to lose. Not doing anything is inhuman, everyone knows and realizes this. However, tens or hundreds of thousands -or even millions- of dead Koreans (on both sides), Americans and maybe Japanese civilians and soldiers to liberate a country is not an option either. It's a political and military deadlock, and the North Korean people are the victims. NK knows it can't possibly win an open war against the combined forces of the US and SK, but that doesn't mean it's not dangerous, far from it. | ||
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AwfulPlayer
249 Posts
On April 06 2013 06:26 ImAbstracT wrote: You know what is a more scary thought than 12 nuclear impacts, 12 emps hitting the entire pacific region. do not despair, you can resume from replay. User was warned for this post | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Chinese and South Korean media followed up with corroborating reports. Why would China reinforce the border with its ally? Not because it fears an attack, but because it fears its collapse. Beijing's great anxiety is that millions of desperate North Koreans will seek to escape starvation or chaos by pouring across into China. But that would only happen if the regime in Pyongyang loses control. China's behaviour tells us that it thinks the situation is deeply serious." Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/bomb-alaska-20130405-2hc7i.html#ixzz2PefiYMiC This is the first piece of news that has me legitimately concerned this is more than just rhetoric. | ||
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farvacola
United States18839 Posts
On April 06 2013 13:40 Scarecrow wrote: "Most tellingly, the country that knows most about North Korea, its only major ally, China, has been massing forces along its long land border with Kim's country: ''China continued moving tanks and armoured vehicles and flying flights near North Korea this week as part of a military build-up in the north-eastern part of the country that US officials say is related to the crisis with North Korea,'' The Washington Times' Bill Gertz, known for his close contacts with the US intelligence system, reported on Wednesday. Chinese and South Korean media followed up with corroborating reports. Why would China reinforce the border with its ally? Not because it fears an attack, but because it fears its collapse. Beijing's great anxiety is that millions of desperate North Koreans will seek to escape starvation or chaos by pouring across into China. But that would only happen if the regime in Pyongyang loses control. China's behaviour tells us that it thinks the situation is deeply serious." Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/bomb-alaska-20130405-2hc7i.html#ixzz2PefiYMiC This is the first piece of news that has me legitimately concerned this is more than just rhetoric. Ahh, but what sort of conflict does that really point to? At this juncture, China's movement of troops and anti-refugee measures could easily be construed as a vote of no confidence in the current NK leader's ability to keep his country together, which might play into a scenario in which the government capitulates amidst infighting and is then both unable and unwilling to initiate large scale armed conflict. It is still difficult to say how the cards will fall, but I think you are right in saying that things are a bit different this time. China hasn't reacted as such in recent history iirc. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On April 06 2013 13:44 farvacola wrote: Ahh, but what sort of conflict does that really point to? At this juncture, China's movement of troops and anti-refugee measures could easily be construed as a vote of no confidence in the current NK leader's ability to keep his country together, which might play into a scenario in which the government capitulates amidst infighting and is then both unable and unwilling to initiate large scale armed conflict. It is still difficult to say how the cards will fall, but I think you are right in saying that things are a bit different this time. China hasn't reacted as such in recent history iirc. From the way it looks there might be more going on than we know. What if Chinas just doing this knowing we're going to attack, then they can keep the North Koreans from pouring over the border? Conspiracy time.. Either way, seems like North Korea needs some FREEDOM USA USA USA | ||
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Blix
Netherlands873 Posts
On April 06 2013 18:39 arb wrote: From the way it looks there might be more going on than we know. What if Chinas just doing this knowing we're going to attack, then they can keep the North Koreans from pouring over the border? Conspiracy time.. Either way, seems like North Korea needs some FREEDOM USA USA USA My speculation is that the west will disable everything with precision bombing, after/during which china will occupy NK. This way we can remove the nuclear threat and China can maintain NK as a buffer | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
There are two motivations behind this verbal threatening diarrea of the last weeks. First, it strengthen Kim Jong Un towards his own people. He is supposed to be a great military leader (that's how propaganda presents him even if we all know it is absolutely grotesque) and there is nothing better that a war that will never happens and a clearly identified ennemy for a power to show its muscles, keep its grip over its people through crappy patriotic feeling and unite a nation. (Just look at how hystericaly patriotic and utterly dumb even we, in the west, become at times of war. Remember Irak in 2003 and the ocean of crap about "freedom" and the messianic America that was gonna save the world, and then think of the huuuuge difference in maturity, information, democracy, education and critical possibilities between US and NK citizens, and you'll see what I mean.) So that's the first point. The second point is North Korea exists internationally because of all those threats and blackmails. North Korea is nothing. It's an extraordinarily poor country, with a non-existent economy, an outdated army, isolated like no other. But still they receive a huge amount of help from the outside. The day they stop looking like lunatic psychopath, they stop to exist. The day they stop to exist, the regime falls. Now, and those two points being made, remember one thing. Nobody wants it to change. Nobody. South Korea certainly doens't want to reunify with this horrendously poor neighbour. That would be like East Germany in 1991, a million times more painful. China doesn't want a new outpost for the US in the area, closer to its border. Japan doesn't want the mess that would be the political disorder after the fall of the regime. The US have enough problems with the countries they already "liberated" in Middle East to put their hand in a laborious process of being once again the non wanted savior at the opposite side of the globe. So, before talking freedom, before going on with slogans (USA USA USA, seriously??), before counting how many nukes will fall where and how long the war will be, I think it would be a good idea to realize there won't be any war, and that's all dirty political manoeuvres. | ||
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Phenny
Australia1435 Posts
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On April 06 2013 13:40 Scarecrow wrote: "Most tellingly, the country that knows most about North Korea, its only major ally, China, has been massing forces along its long land border with Kim's country: ''China continued moving tanks and armoured vehicles and flying flights near North Korea this week as part of a military build-up in the north-eastern part of the country that US officials say is related to the crisis with North Korea,'' The Washington Times' Bill Gertz, known for his close contacts with the US intelligence system, reported on Wednesday. Chinese and South Korean media followed up with corroborating reports. Why would China reinforce the border with its ally? Not because it fears an attack, but because it fears its collapse. Beijing's great anxiety is that millions of desperate North Koreans will seek to escape starvation or chaos by pouring across into China. But that would only happen if the regime in Pyongyang loses control. China's behaviour tells us that it thinks the situation is deeply serious." Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/bomb-alaska-20130405-2hc7i.html#ixzz2PefiYMiC This is the first piece of news that has me legitimately concerned this is more than just rhetoric. Ugh really? Its been obvious for a week+ that this time is very different from previous threats. The US has moved B-2 bombers and there is alleged reports of several B-1 bombers and the E-6 plane (Flying central command for nukes basically) moving about. Every government knows this time its not a joke and can easily blow up. Just follow what they are doing rather than what they say. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On April 06 2013 19:36 Biff The Understudy wrote: People who take Kim Jong Un seriously in that one have serious issue about understanding how politics work, imvho. There are two motivations behind this verbal threatening diarrea of the last weeks. First, it strengthen Kim Jong Un towards his own people. He is supposed to be a great military leader (that's how propaganda presents him even if we all know it is absolutely grotesque) and there is nothing better that a war that will never happens and a clearly identified ennemy for a power to show its muscles, keep its grip over its people through crappy patriotic feeling and unite a nation. (Just look at how hystericaly patriotic and utterly dumb even we, in the west, become at times of war. Remember Irak in 2003 and the ocean of crap about "freedom" and the messianic America that was gonna save the world, and then think of the huuuuge difference in maturity, information, democracy, education and critical possibilities between US and NK citizens, and you'll see what I mean.) So that's the first point. The second point is North Korea exists internationally because of all those threats and blackmails. North Korea is nothing. It's an extraordinarily poor country, with a non-existent economy, an outdated army, isolated like no other. But still they receive a huge amount of help from the outside. The day they stop looking like lunatic psychopath, they stop to exist. The day they stop to exist, the regime falls. Now, and those two points being made, remember one thing. Nobody wants it to change. Nobody. South Korea certainly doens't want to reunify with this horrendously poor neighbour. That would be like East Germany in 1991, a million times more painful. China doesn't want a new outpost for the US in the area, closer to its border. Japan doesn't want the mess that would be the political disorder after the fall of the regime. The US have enough problems with the countries they already "liberated" in Middle East to put their hand in a laborious process of being once again the non wanted savior at the opposite side of the globe. So, before talking freedom, before going on with slogans (USA USA USA, seriously??), before counting how many nukes will fall where and how long the war will be, I think it would be a good idea to realize there won't be any war, and that's all dirty political manoeuvres. Not exactly sure how troop movement by China/USA/SK and movement of top-tier American planes to the area is political maneuvering. I know it feels like the guy who cried wolf too many times but this time is definitely different, Its not cheap to move troops around. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On April 06 2013 19:36 Biff The Understudy wrote: + Show Spoiler + People who take Kim Jong Un seriously in that one have serious issue about understanding how politics work, imvho. There are two motivations behind this verbal threatening diarrea of the last weeks. First, it strengthen Kim Jong Un towards his own people. He is supposed to be a great military leader (that's how propaganda presents him even if we all know it is absolutely grotesque) and there is nothing better that a war that will never happens and a clearly identified ennemy for a power to show its muscles, keep its grip over its people through crappy patriotic feeling and unite a nation. (Just look at how hystericaly patriotic and utterly dumb even we, in the west, become at times of war. Remember Irak in 2003 and the ocean of crap about "freedom" and the messianic America that was gonna save the world, and then think of the huuuuge difference in maturity, information, democracy, education and critical possibilities between US and NK citizens, and you'll see what I mean.) So that's the first point. The second point is North Korea exists internationally because of all those threats and blackmails. North Korea is nothing. It's an extraordinarily poor country, with a non-existent economy, an outdated army, isolated like no other. But still they receive a huge amount of help from the outside. The day they stop looking like lunatic psychopath, they stop to exist. The day they stop to exist, the regime falls. Now, and those two points being made, remember one thing. Nobody wants it to change. Nobody. South Korea certainly doens't want to reunify with this horrendously poor neighbour. That would be like East Germany in 1991, a million times more painful. China doesn't want a new outpost for the US in the area, closer to its border. Japan doesn't want the mess that would be the political disorder after the fall of the regime. The US have enough problems with the countries they already "liberated" in Middle East to put their hand in a laborious process of being once again the non wanted savior at the opposite side of the globe. So, before talking freedom, before going on with slogans (USA USA USA, seriously??), before counting how many nukes will fall where and how long the war will be, I think it would be a good idea to realize there won't be any war, and that's all dirty political manoeuvres. Being NK's bitch isn't something the outside world plans on doing forever.. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On April 06 2013 19:59 sekritzzz wrote: Not exactly sure how troop movement by China/USA/SK and movement of top-tier American planes to the area is political maneuvering. I know it feels like the guy who cried wolf too many times but this time is definitely different, Its not cheap to move troops around. Because it's a way of saying "hey we ain't scared of your shit". Kim shows his muscles, and the countries around show they have even bigger dicks. You think they bring all those stuff to make an actual war? Look, Kim can't make a war. It's just not possible. And if you know any country / regime in the whole history, that has commited suicide by attacking for no reason whatsoever unthreatening forces that absolutely dwarf him, let me know. It's not starcraft. Kim Jong Un wants one thing: to stay in power. Period. On April 06 2013 20:02 zezamer wrote: Being NK's bitch isn't something the outside world plans on doing forever.. We've been for decades and will keep to be until we have bigger interests. At the moment it's very very clearly not the case. "Being North Korea's bitches" is a lot of lost energy, but it costs us very little compared to what would be the fall of the regime and the huge geopolitical struggle that would ensue. Believe me, nobody minds being a bitch from time to time. Of course we would prefer them to be quiet. But they aren't and they won't be because this attitude is the only leverage they have on the outside world, and they'll just keep using it forever. | ||
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
On April 06 2013 06:26 ImAbstracT wrote: You know what is a more scary thought than 12 nuclear impacts, 12 emps hitting the entire pacific region. The aftermath of a nuclear impact will result in a sort of electromagnetic pulse wave that will certainly knock out a lot of things in the surrounding area. I completely agree though... Extremely scary. :S | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On April 06 2013 20:10 Trasko wrote: The aftermath of a nuclear impact will result in a sort of electromagnetic pulse wave that will certainly knock out a lot of things in the surrounding area. I completely agree though... Extremely scary. :S The world has gone through Cuba missile crisis, so believe me, you will find better moments to be scared about a nuclear holocaust than now. | ||
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sephiria
106 Posts
On April 06 2013 19:59 sekritzzz wrote: Not exactly sure how troop movement by China/USA/SK and movement of top-tier American planes to the area is political maneuvering. I know it feels like the guy who cried wolf too many times but this time is definitely different, Its not cheap to move troops around. I think you are both right: the current korean leaders use rhetoric to improve their internal stability, as was said. The reactions of China and the others are probably a response - but they are not a response to the imminent thread of war declared bei Kim, they are a reaction to his actions in the way that his rhetoric seems to be radical, suggesting that his internal position is very fragile. If the internal order of NK shifts, it is entirely possible that terrorists or deluded generals assume control over certain parts of the military/ it's weapons. This requires everyone to respond immediately which is why China (to possibly occupy and pacify a NK in civil war) and the US (defense against hardline attacks) are moving troops. Does this make sense or too sci-fi like? | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On April 06 2013 20:17 sephiria wrote: I think you are both right: the current korean leaders use rhetoric to improve their internal stability, as was said. The reactions of China and the others are probably a response - but they are not a response to the imminent thread of war declared bei Kim, they are a reaction to his actions in the way that his rhetoric seems to be radical, suggesting that his internal position is very fragile. If the internal order of NK shifts, it is entirely possible that terrorists or deluded generals assume control over certain parts of the military/ it's weapons. This requires everyone to respond immediately which is why China (to possibly occupy and pacify a NK in civil war) and the US (defense against hardline attacks) are moving troops. Does this make sense or too sci-fi like? Too sci fi. There are no "terrorists". What do you even mean by "terrorists". And no, there are no crazy lunatic faction in the NK regime that want to commit national suicide. Because nobody, ever, in the whole history, commits this kind of suicide. The troops are there to say "move a little finger and you are dead, no kidding". It's just a way to shortcut his blackmail. That's a big poker game, everybody knows Kim has shitty cards, and moving your troops is just a way of saying "look, man, we know you have shitty cards so cut the BS". If anybody had to get ready for an open war with NK, believe me, the ambiance would be slightly different. | ||
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sephiria
106 Posts
On April 06 2013 20:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Too sci fi. There are no "terrorists". What do you even mean by "terrorists". The troops are there to say "move a little finger and you are dead, no kidding". It's just a way to shortcut his blackmail. I am just assuming that there is some sort of internal conflict Also the current internal indoctrination does not exactly prevent radical anti-west opinions. While the government knows that hitting the US is a bad idea, I would imagine there are probably some groups around that really want to show the US their strength. I also think that in the event of a coup or a similar situation China and the US just want to be safe. Even if it's unlikely that this happens nobody wants to take chances. I think that your explanation is more likely though, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it was this. | ||
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